Another one of THOSE Threads...

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That doesn’t seem to be what the GIRM says.
  1. …In Lent the playing of the organ and musical instruments is allowed only in order to support the singing. Exceptions, however, are Laetare Sunday (Fourth Sunday of Lent), Solemnities, and Feasts.
To me that sounds like there shouldn’t be purely instrumental music, but instruments to support singing are OK.
Yes, it’s OK to use the organ (or instruments) as accompaniment. But I understood it to mean organ (or instruments) to play organ or instrumental pieces.

Our abbey chants a cappella so Lent means no organ except on Laetare Sunday (and solemnities and feasts which I forgot to add).
 
I think we need to bear in mind that Sundays are always a mini-Easter even during Lent. It is a solemn celebration, but a celebration nonetheless.
Heaven forbid that Christians should be people of joy, especially at Mass. One would think that smiling at Mass is a heresy. :rolleyes:

-Tim-
 
I mean it’s Lent people! Why are we rejoicing? It’s a time of penance.
We’re rejoicing because our Church, in the first preface to the Eucharist Prayer of Lent says this: “Each year You give us this joyful season”.

Penance does not have to lack joy. It is for renewal.
 
:confused: Of course instruments can be used in Lent.
Traditionally, no. See the GIRM extract posted above for the very limited exceptions. In a Benedictine monastery, only on Laetare Sunday, as well as solemnities and feasts. Same goes for Advent, Gaudete Sunday (3d Sunday in Advent), feasts, and solemnities.

Sorry, I don’t make the rules, I only report them 🤷
 
Traditionally, no. See the GIRM extract posted above for the very limited exceptions.
Yes, I know wht the GIRM says and my answer reflected the literally letter of the rule, which I did not make, but only reported as well. From the GIRM
In Lent the playing of the organ and musical instruments is allowed only in order to support the singing.
usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-5.cfm

Only to support the singing. I am reasonably sure that singing occurs pretty much at every Mass, at least it does here. In absence of ability to care a tune in a bucket, instruments can be very helpful in keeping both the timeing and the pitch. At my parish, there really is no one that is a parallel to the traditionalists that post here, so I do not have to concern myself with such things. Suffice it to stick to the rules and honor the wishes of the bishop and priest, the most important Tradition.
 
Yes, I know wht the GIRM says and my answer reflected the literally letter of the rule, which I did not make, but only reported as well. From the GIRM

usccb.org/prayer-and-worship/the-mass/general-instruction-of-the-roman-missal/girm-chapter-5.cfm

Only to support the singing. I am reasonably sure that singing occurs pretty much at every Mass, at least it does here. In absence of ability to care a tune in a bucket, instruments can be very helpful in keeping both the timeing and the pitch. At my parish, there really is no one that is a parallel to the traditionalists that post here, so I do not have to concern myself with such things. Suffice it to stick to the rules and honor the wishes of the bishop and priest, the most important Tradition.
Yes, that’s what’s meant “in support of the singing”, basically to provide a note to sustain the pitch and time, and probably in most places that’s necessary. But it wouldn’t be OK to play, say an organ piece at the Offertory. At the abbey, they use the Organ to play a prelude, an Offertory piece (after the offertory antiphon), and a postlude. At Lent, the organ is silent except on Laetare Sunday and at feasts and solemnities. The monks always sing the Propers and Ordinary a cappella. But then it’s their day job so they’re quite good at it 😉

The monks do a good job, BTW, of proving that maintaining Catholic traditions does not require the use of the EF Mass or pre-Vatican II Divine Offices. Granted it’s a bit much to expect parishes to be as good as they are, but I think it’s important to have them as a sort of liturgical reference point.
 
Yes, another liturgical rant. Might as well get this over with.

This past Sunday, Father mentioned a celebration of the Transfiguration during Lent, he still wore the purple vestments, and the alter cloth was still purple. The only differences were the opening hymn was to be used during the Transfiguration (Tis’ Good Lord to Be Here) and the Gospel reading was the story of the Transfiguration. I didn’t mind that, but it’s what the MAss is going to that I don’t like. I mean it’s Lent people! Why are we rejoicing? It’s a time of penance. They had a choir, a flute and two guitars! It’s one thing if it’s a youth Mass, but this is noon Mass on a Sunday during Lent! What ever happened to the solemn Masses? I remember when I was little, they did a chant Our Father (in English) but now we’ve gone to this echo thing. A prayer’s a prayer, but still, it’s a solemn part of the year! I really don’t like the path liturgical music has gone down in the last year. NExt thing we know, they’re going to rip out the organ and put in a drum set!
A Purple Altar cloth? Really? How incredibly odd.
 
The sisters at the Carmelite Monastery i go to stopped using there organ during lent. Just putting that out there but i kind of miss it there singing is beautiful!
 
A Purple Altar cloth? Really? How incredibly odd.
??? What’s odd about a purple altar cloth? Or a green one, or a red one for that matter. We have altar cloths in each of the liturgical season colours. They are usually topped by a narrower white one.
 
??? What’s odd about a purple altar cloth? Or a green one, or a red one for that matter. We have altar cloths in each of the liturgical season colours. They are usually topped by a narrower white one.
So does our parish. But I wasn’t quite sure if Kevin812 was trying to be sarcastic or not.
 
Yes, another liturgical rant. Might as well get this over with.

This past Sunday, Father mentioned a celebration of the Transfiguration during Lent, he still wore the purple vestments, and the alter cloth was still purple. The only differences were the opening hymn was to be used during the Transfiguration (Tis’ Good Lord to Be Here) and the Gospel reading was the story of the Transfiguration. I didn’t mind that, but it’s what the MAss is going to that I don’t like. I mean it’s Lent people! Why are we rejoicing? It’s a time of penance. They had a choir, a flute and two guitars! It’s one thing if it’s a youth Mass, but this is noon Mass on a Sunday during Lent! What ever happened to the solemn Masses? I remember when I was little, they did a chant Our Father (in English) but now we’ve gone to this echo thing. A prayer’s a prayer, but still, it’s a solemn part of the year! I really don’t like the path liturgical music has gone down in the last year. NExt thing we know, they’re going to rip out the organ and put in a drum set!
I am not sure what to say, if you didn’t like something that happen at your parish in a Mass then you need to speak to your priest, worship director, music leader about your feelings but I bet that more people that were there were ministered than not. There is nothing anyone on CAF can do for you if you don’t like the direction of music. It sounds like nothing was wrong at all but your own preconceived notions of what should or should not happen in a lenten Mass. Even while this is a season of repentence, reflection, introspection etc, that does not mean we have to walk around with frowns and pouty faces as a sign that this is lent. Jesus did say that if we fast, we to wash our faces and not put on some kind of show.
 
So does our parish. But I wasn’t quite sure if Kevin812 was trying to be sarcastic or not.
Ironic. Since as we all know from the GIRM that the Alar Cloth is White (and only White and never any other shade but White.) Anything other is a Liturgical Abuse.

GIRM 304. Out of reverence for the celebration of the memorial of the Lord and for the banquet in which the Body and Blood of the Lord are offered, there should be, on an altar where this is celebrated, at least one cloth, white in color, whose shape, size, and decoration are in keeping with the altar’s structure. When, in the Dioceses of the United States of America, other cloths are used in addition to the altar cloth, then those cloths may be of other colors possessing Christian honorific or festive significance according to longstanding local usage, provided that the uppermost cloth covering the mensa (i.e., the altar cloth itself) is always white in color.
 
Ironic. Since as we all know from the GIRM that the Alar Cloth is White (and only White and never any other shade but White.) Anything other is a Liturgical Abuse.

GIRM 304. Out of reverence for the celebration of the memorial of the Lord and for the banquet in which the Body and Blood of the Lord are offered, there should be, on an altar where this is celebrated, at least one cloth, white in color, whose shape, size, and decoration are in keeping with the altar’s structure. When, in the Dioceses of the United States of America, other cloths are used in addition to the altar cloth, then those cloths may be of other colors possessing Christian honorific or festive significance according to longstanding local usage, provided that the uppermost cloth covering the mensa (i.e., the altar cloth itself) is always white in color.
We don’t know the circumstances exactly. What if something was spilled on the altar cloth and the purple was the only one available, so the white was removed just leaving the purple underneath. It is too easy to jump on the “that’s liturgical abuse bandwagon” when we really don’t have the whole story and what was going on based on one person description.
 
Ironic. Since as we all know from the GIRM that the Alar Cloth is White (and only White and never any other shade but White.) Anything other is a Liturgical Abuse.

GIRM 304. Out of reverence for the celebration of the memorial of the Lord and for the banquet in which the Body and Blood of the Lord are offered, there should be, on an altar where this is celebrated, at least one cloth, white in color, whose shape, size, and decoration are in keeping with the altar’s structure. **When, in the Dioceses of the United States of America, other cloths are used in addition to the altar cloth, then those cloths may be of other colors possessing Christian honorific or festive significance **according to longstanding local usage, provided that the uppermost cloth covering the mensa (i.e., the altar cloth itself) is always white in color.
That just says that the top most cloth must be white, the one underneath and showing can be purple, red or green - or gold, for that matter. On our altar right now the colour that is visible from the pews is purple but the top of the altar is covered by a white cloth.
 
That just says that the top most cloth must be white, the one underneath and showing can be purple, red or green - or gold, for that matter. On our altar right now the colour that is visible from the pews is purple but the top of the altar is covered by a white cloth.
thank-you. Too easy to judge something based on one description and without addition information and surrounding circumstances.
 
??? What’s odd about a purple altar cloth? Or a green one, or a red one for that matter. We have altar cloths in each of the liturgical season colours. They are usually topped by a narrower white one.
The white one is the altar cloth (a.k.a. fair linen). It cannot be any other color and has specific requirements for proper size, placement, etc.

Any appointments that are colored are not the altar cloth. They are antependia. Also called an altar frontal.
 
The white one is the altar cloth (a.k.a. fair linen). It cannot be any other color and has specific requirements for proper size, placement, etc.

Any appointments that are colored are not the altar cloth. They are antependia. Also called an altar frontal.
But to the average person in the pew, a large piece of fabric, be it white or coloured, which covers the altar and falls 6-10 inches below the top on all four sides is an ‘altar cloth’.

Where do we find the requirements you mention? The GIRM gives no detail, in fact, other than the US adapted GIRM we see quoted here, there is no mention of ‘uppermost’ in the Canadian, England/Wales & French versions. It just says at least one white cloth. The previous GIRM didn’t even mention colour.
 
But to the average person in the pew, a large piece of fabric, be it white or coloured, which covers the altar and falls 6-10 inches below the top on all four sides is an ‘altar cloth’.

Where do we find the requirements you mention? The GIRM gives no detail, in fact, other than the US adapted GIRM we see quoted here, there is no mention of ‘uppermost’ in the Canadian, England/Wales & French versions. It just says at least one white cloth. The previous GIRM didn’t even mention colour.
exactly, that is why we can’t come to any conclusion based on one person’s description on what was or wasn’t on the altar and even if it was to the level of liturgical abuse and lets all run to the Bishop. None of us are liturgical experts in interpreting GIRM and in even that for something to be liturgical abuse that has to be a deliberate knowledge of what should or shouldn’t be and then a violation of it. Plus there could have been a flat white linen on top of the altar which may not have been able to be seen from the pew. Likewise, if something was spilled on it from the previous Mass and it had to be removed or change, we don’t know that either (this was a 12 noon Mass). If the sacristan had to change linen and didn’t know, we really lack the complete story here, that is why one observation at one Mass is not enough to start calling “liturgy abuse”. Questions about what happen here or in any other Mass need to be taken to the priest or worship director first than come on the internet to ask others what they think.
 
But to the average person in the pew, a large piece of fabric, be it white or coloured, which covers the altar and falls 6-10 inches below the top on all four sides is an ‘altar cloth’.

Where do we find the requirements you mention? The GIRM gives no detail, in fact, other than the US adapted GIRM we see quoted here, there is no mention of ‘uppermost’ in the Canadian, England/Wales & French versions. It just says at least one white cloth. The previous GIRM didn’t even mention colour.
This is why we must educate our selves. CAF can be one of those tools.
 
exactly, that is why we can’t come to any conclusion based on one person’s description on what was or wasn’t on the altar and even if it was to the level of liturgical abuse and lets all run to the Bishop. None of us are liturgical experts in interpreting GIRM and in even that for something to be liturgical abuse that has to be a deliberate knowledge of what should or shouldn’t be and then a violation of it. Plus there could have been a flat white linen on top of the altar which may not have been able to be seen from the pew. Likewise, if something was spilled on it from the previous Mass and it had to be removed or change, we don’t know that either (this was a 12 noon Mass). If the sacristan had to change linen and didn’t know, we really lack the complete story here, that is why one observation at one Mass is not enough to start calling “liturgy abuse”. Questions about what happen here or in any other Mass need to be taken to the priest or worship director first than come on the internet to ask others what they think.
No one in this thread (unless I have missed it somewhere) has suggested informing the Bishop, although that is a right of all Catholics.

I have no clue what a “worship director” is. Do you by chance mean a Master of Ceremonies (MC)?
 
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