Another Proof against Sola Scriptura?

[JRKH]

I know I’m “beating a dead horse” here but I’ve never seen this passage sited before.

I was watching a movie on TBN called “The Gospel of John”. In it the leaders of the Sandedrin told Nicodemus, “Search the scriptures, you’ll find no prophet coming form Galilee.” (in reference to the validity of believing in Jesus.

I was curious about this so I looked it up.
The King James Bible, translates the passage thus:

John 7: 45-52
45Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him? 46The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.
47Then answered them the Pharisees, Are ye also deceived? 48Have any of the rulers or of the Pharisees believed on him? 49But this people who knoweth not the law are cursed. 50Nicodemus saith unto them, (he that came to Jesus by night, being one of them,) 51Doth our law judge any man, before it hear him, and know what he doeth? 52They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and look: for out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.

The New American Bible translates verse 52 as:
52They answered him, “You are not also from Galilee, are you? Search, and see that no prophet arises out of Galilee.”

Now the Jewish leaders well knew the scriptures and the prophets. They staked their rejection of Jesus on the fact that scripture did not indicate that Galilee would produce a prophet.
They were wrong. Galilee did produce a “Prophet”.

They read scripture, taught scripture and interpreted scripture - and they were wrong. Not because they missed an interpretation of scripture, but because they were too tied to it and unable to see the power of God amongst them.

This is a potent argument for the insufficiency of sola-scriptura. In the hands of the limited human mind it too much limits our ability to see, hear and embrace the Glory of God. - Unless it fits our preconcieved notion based on our interpretation of scripture.

May God Bless - And Merry Christmas
James

 

[Byzcat]

I have never heard this argument before, but your logic is beautiful.

 

[SyCarl]

Unfortunately for your theory, Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, not Galilee. This is prophesied in Joel.

As for Galliee there was a prophecy about it in Isaiah.

But there will be no more gloom for her who was in anguish; in earlier times He treated the land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali with contempt, but later on He shall make it glorious, by the way of the sea, on the other side of Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles. The people who walk in darkness Will see a great light; Those who live in a dark land, The light will shine on them.
(Isaiah 9:1-2 NASB)

 

[JRKH]

Unfortunately for your theory, Jesus was born in Bethlehem in Judea, not Galilee. This is prophesied in Joel.

As for Galliee there was a prophecy about it in Isaiah.

Touche there my friend.
Though I don’t think it shoots down my theory. The fact remains that the men who studied and knew scripture the best missed the oportunity to know the Messiah because of their preconcieved notions about what scripture said. And they were willing to kill Jesus rather than modify their interpretations or take into account that God is not bound to what is written.

As far as where Jesus was born - Of course I know that he was born in Bethlehem. It was the pharasees who made the comment about Galilee, not I.

James

 

[SyCarl]

Touche there my friend.
Though I don’t think it shoots down my theory. The fact remains that the men who studied and knew scripture the best missed the oportunity to know the Messiah because of their preconcieved notions about what scripture said. And they were willing to kill Jesus rather than modify their interpretations or take into account that God is not bound to what is written.

As far as where Jesus was born - Of course I know that he was born in Bethlehem. It was the pharasees who made the comment about Galilee, not I.

James

That was their error not the Scripture. Jesus told them He was predicted.

"You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.
(John 5:39-40 NASB)

 

[JRKH]

That was their error not the Scripture. Jesus told them He was predicted.

I appreciate that and that is my point.
When people get so tied up in scripture and it’s interpretation;
when they get to the point where nothing is true unless it can be proven in scripture;
when they spend thier time arguing the most rediculious menutia instead of looking at the big picture and seeking God’s truth;

When they reach this point they can miss God’s very real and active presence in their life.

Peace,
James

 

[Old_Scholar]

You won’t find mistakes in Scripture.

Nazareth is in Galilee and Jesus, though born in Bethlehem, is from Nazareth. He was raised there and placed there in the census they went to Bethlehem for. He was also raised there during his early life.

All this is in Scripture. The Pharasees should have known the Scriptures better.

 

[JRKH]

You won’t find mistakes in Scripture.

Nazareth is in Galilee and Jesus, though born in Bethlehem, is from Nazareth. He was raised there and placed there in the census they went to Bethlehem for. He was also raised there during his early life.

All this is in Scripture. The Pharasees should have known the Scriptures better.

So it is possible for individuals and groups of individuals - Even important and well respected individuals to mis-interprete scripture. Yes?

James

 

[2ndGen]

Question:

If Jesus was born in Bethleham,
isn’t He “of” Bethleham and not Galilee?

Then this would make the Pharisees right in that a prophet didn’t come from Galilee for Christ was born in Bethleham.

The best argument to counter Sola Scriptura is that it’s not “in” The Bible itself and that it didn’t exist until the 16th Century.

Sola Scriptura cancel’s out Sola Scriptura by it’s own definition.

Now, we can’t tell a Protestant what to believe and that is a tenet of their faith. If they want to believe that, more power to them. As long as they don’t try to push it on us.

(Saw that movie too, over and over…still, my favorite is Franco Zeffirrelli’s “Jesus of Nazareth”)

 

[2ndGen]

You won’t find mistakes in Scripture.

Nazareth is in Galilee and Jesus, though born in Bethlehem, is from Nazareth. He was raised there and placed there in the census they went to Bethlehem for. He was also raised there during his early life.

All this is in Scripture. The Pharasees should have known the Scriptures better.

Wasn’t He “raised” in Egypt for the first 4 years of His life though?

How do we know what the Pharisees meant when they said “from Galilee”?

Was it where He was raised?
Was it where He was born?

If it was where He was raised,
since Jesus was raised in different places,
how does one determine which place is “the” place?

 

[jblake]

JRKH;:

The fact remains that the men who studied and knew scripture the best missed the opportunity to know the Messiah because of their preconceived notions about what scripture said.

That was merely one of the reasons why they did not consider Jesus to be the Messiah.

Of course I know that he was born in Bethlehem. It was the pharisees who made the comment about Galilee, not I.

There was a Bethlehem in Galilee. I think that part of the reason for the inclusion of the story, is to demonstrate how false assumptions lead can one astray.

xan

jonathon

 

[Old_Scholar]

Wasn’t He “raised” in Egypt for the first 4 years of His life though?

How do we know what the Pharisees meant when they said “from Galilee”?

Was it where He was raised?
Was it where He was born?

If it was where He was raised,
since Jesus was raised in different places,
how does one determine which place is “the” place?

When Joseph fled Bethlehem, they went to Egypt in order to fulfill the prophecy. They didn’t stay there long because their home and Joseph’s business was in Nazareth. He was a well-to-do carpenter and had a very good business. When Jesus had other brothers and sisters, they all helped with the business and it often took them to the Sea of Galilee and other towns around Nazareth. When Jesus started His ministry, he forsake the carpentry business and that probably caused a littel rift with his family. We know by Scriptures however that His home was in Nazareth.

 

[2ndGen]

When Joseph fled Bethlehem, they went to Egypt in order to fulfill the prophecy. They didn’t stay there long because their home and Joseph’s business was in Nazareth. He was a well-to-do carpenter and had a very good business. When Jesus had other brothers and sisters, they all helped with the business and it often took them to the Sea of Galilee and other towns around Nazareth. When Jesus started His ministry, he forsake the carpentry business and that probably caused a littel rift with his family. We know by Scriptures however that His home was in Nazareth.

When Joseph fled Bethlehem, they went to Egypt in order to fulfill the prophecy. They didn’t stay there long because their home and Joseph’s business was in Nazareth.

I THINK THEY FLED EGYPT TO MORE THAN JUST FULLFILL A PROPHECY. BESIDES THE FACT THAT THEY WERE PRACTICALLY ORDERED BY AN ANGEL TO DO SO, THEY DID IT TO PROTECT JESUS.

HOW DID YOU COME ABOUT THIS ASSERTION THAT THEY DIDN’T STAY LONG?

REVELATION 12 SPEAKS OF THEIR EXODUS FROM JERUSELUM AN IT TELLS US THAT THEY STAYED AWAY IN THE DESERT (EGYPT) FOR FOUR YEARS.

SO WHERE DID THEY STAY?

THE BIBLE SAYS THAT THEY DIDN’T RETURN TO NAZARETH UNTIL HEROD WAS DEAD. HEROD DIED IN 0AD,

SO THERE IS A 4 YEAR PERIOD THERE THAT JESUS “WASN’T” FROM NAZARETH.

DO YOU CONSIDER 4 YEARS “NOT” LONG?

 

[jblake]

2ndGen;:

They didn’t stay there long because their home and Joseph’s business was in Nazareth.

That assumes that Joseph was a carpenter. The Greek word can refer to any of the unskilled building trades. IOW, Joseph could have been a common day laborer, working wherever and whenever he could, doing whatever would bring home legitimate money.

SO WHERE DID THEY STAY?

An apocryphal Gospel states that Dimas tended to Jesus as a child, and that Dimas’ family protected Joseph, Mary, and the rest of the family. A different account states that Dimas was an early convert — from when Jesus resided in Egypt — who went back to his sinful ways, repenting again on the Cross.

I posted a radically different answer on my blog.

xan

jonathon

 

[JRKH]

The Peace of Christ to all - especially in this Holy season of Christmas.

Thanks to all for the responses.
It is most interesting that even now, with a complete understanding of who Jesus was, we can still find ways to “debate” this simple point of scripture.

The simple fact is that, according to the Pharasee’s understanding, Jesus was from Galilee and that no prophet was to be expected from there. Regardless of where Jesus was actually born and raised, he began his ministry from Galilee.

My point in the origonal post was not to debate the validity of scripture but rather to point up the dangers of becoming too closely tied up in scripture.
SyCarl pointed up another passage that is very good:

“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life.”
(John 5:39-40 NASB)

What is Jesus saying here? Well several things of course, but one thing should be clear - The Pharasee’s (and others) were so tied up in “Studying Scripture” and so tied up in their own social and political intersts that they couldn’t (or wouldn’t) accept Jesus.
Jesus is fairly crying out to them to get their noses out of scripture long enough to witness the Glory of God before the very eyes.

Jesus, and the Kingdom of God, was caught between two conflicting forces, both based on a false understanding of scripture. The first was among the jewish people who believed He was the Messiah who would militarily restore the Kingdom of Isreal. The second was among the Jewish heirarchy who were afraid that He, or others acting in his name, might try just that.

It’s easy for us now to point at the Pharasee’s and shake our heads at their inability to see and accept Jesus, but the bigger lesson is that we must not make the same mistake that they did. That is by becoming so tied up in “scripture”, so tied up in “The Bible”, arguing the most mundane points to death, that we lose sight of the larger picture; the very real presence of God among us today.

I understand and apprecieate the foundational necessity of the Holy Bible. I also understand and appreciate the value of Tradition and the need for the structure of Holy Mother Church. But we all need to remember that God is greater that all of this and that He “writes his law on our hearts.”

May God Bless us on our Journey

James

 

[bogeydogg]

When Joseph fled Bethlehem, they went to Egypt in order to fulfill the prophecy. They didn’t stay there long because their home and Joseph’s business was in Nazareth. He was a well-to-do carpenter and had a very good business.

Actually St. Joseph was probably a lumberjack and an unskilled man, hence the insult, “is this not the son of the carpenter?” It holds no sting if Joseph is a well to do craftsman.

When Jesus had other brothers and sisters, they all helped with the business and it often took them to the Sea of Galilee and other towns around Nazareth. When Jesus started His ministry, he forsake the carpentry business and that probably caused a littel rift with his family. We know by Scriptures however that His home was in Nazareth.

The Holy Family fled to Egypt because an Angel ordered Joseph to go, and BTW that coincided nicely with the provision of sudden wealth in the gifts of gold, frankincense and myrrh. All of which were of such value that Joseph could provide for the Family in a foreign land. Cool how the Lord provides huh? They did not return however until a third visitation to St. Joseph telling him that it was safe to return. This is an interesting historical note too.

After Herod died another Maccabean revolt flared up in Galilee and it was after this revolt was put down and the area was stabilized that St. Joseph was told to return. I have read in many places that it is possible, maybe probable, that the Holy Family would have returned to find the still decaying bodies of the crucified hanging by the road, because that is how the Romans stabilized the area, by crucifying hundreds of people until fear stopped the revolt and the people accepted the rule of the tetrarch Herodius.

The point is that God carefully protected and prepared the way for His Christ and kept His hand firmly on the Holy Family while the Christ was still a child. Therefore, we cannot, Biblically, historically or traditionally assert that Joseph went to Egypt just to fulfill a prophesy and once he had hung out there he packed up and came back to his hunky-dory business in Nazareth. It is crass to do so.

 

[Truarchs]

JRKH, Your point is well stated but seems to get lost in the debate over what scripture says (furthering your point I believe). Most of us, and I pray all, reading your post believe scripture is without error. I believe your point is that it’s not scripture but people who make errors. Who can argue people don’t make errors understanding scripture?

God gave us the Magisterium to help guide us through the proper understanding of Sacred Scripture and Tradition because there are not 6.5 billion versions of the truth walking the planet. It’s easy to see that with so many people having conflicting understandings of scripture God’s mercy enabled the Magisterium. It would be unnecessary if we were not all sinners.

So, does that lead the debate into what is the church? After all, what is the “pillar and bulwark of the truth”? Is it Sacred Scripture? No, Paul doesn’t tell us that in 1Tim 3:15. It is the church. I know it in my heart to be the Roman Catholic Church with its Sacred Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium. There is one God, one Truth and one Church. I know that because, through the gift of faith, God placed that in my heart. And I maintain a deep relationship with God through His church every day. Sorry, I cannot prove that through scripture, or anything else. That’s my faith. If I could provide proof, you would not need faith. God didn’t make it that way. Love requires a choice and choice requires faith, not proof.

May God bless all of you this joyous season of birth! Praise be to Jesus and the humility He assumed out of love for us.
)’(

 

[JRKH]

JRKH, Your point is well stated but seems to get lost in the debate over what scripture says (furthering your point I believe). Most of us, and I pray all, reading your post believe scripture is without error. I believe your point is that it’s not scripture but people who make errors. Who can argue people don’t make errors understanding scripture?

God gave us the Magisterium to help guide us through the proper understanding of Sacred Scripture and Tradition because there are not 6.5 billion versions of the truth walking the planet. It’s easy to see that with so many people having conflicting understandings of scripture God’s mercy enabled the Magisterium. It would be unnecessary if we were not all sinners.

So, does that lead the debate into what is the church? After all, what is the “pillar and bulwark of the truth”? Is it Sacred Scripture? No, Paul doesn’t tell us that in 1Tim 3:15. It is the church. I know it in my heart to be the Roman Catholic Church with its Sacred Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium. There is one God, one Truth and one Church. I know that because, through the gift of faith, God placed that in my heart. And I maintain a deep relationship with God through His church every day. Sorry, I cannot prove that through scripture, or anything else. That’s my faith. If I could provide proof, you would not need faith. God didn’t make it that way. Love requires a choice and choice requires faith, not proof.

May God bless all of you this joyous season of birth! Praise be to Jesus and the humility He assumed out of love for us.
)’(

Thank you for “getting it”. I was beginning to think I was the only one who understood.
The other posts really do further the point. Is there any wonder Jesus would get so frustrated with the Scribes, Pharasees, Lawyers etc.?

Of course my intent is not to undermine anyones beliefs or faith, but only help some see that gripping the scriptures too tightly can lead to trouble just as easily as dismissing them.

James

 

[2ndGen]

JRKH, Your point is well stated but seems to get lost in the debate over what scripture says (furthering your point I believe). Most of us, and I pray all, reading your post believe scripture is without error. I believe your point is that it’s not scripture but people who make errors. Who can argue people don’t make errors understanding scripture?

God gave us the Magisterium to help guide us through the proper understanding of Sacred Scripture and Tradition because there are not 6.5 billion versions of the truth walking the planet. It’s easy to see that with so many people having conflicting understandings of scripture God’s mercy enabled the Magisterium. It would be unnecessary if we were not all sinners.

So, does that lead the debate into what is the church? After all, what is the “pillar and bulwark of the truth”? Is it Sacred Scripture? No, Paul doesn’t tell us that in 1Tim 3:15. It is the church. I know it in my heart to be the Roman Catholic Church with its Sacred Scripture, Tradition and Magisterium. There is one God, one Truth and one Church. I know that because, through the gift of faith, God placed that in my heart. And I maintain a deep relationship with God through His church every day. Sorry, I cannot prove that through scripture, or anything else. That’s my faith. If I could provide proof, you would not need faith. God didn’t make it that way. Love requires a choice and choice requires faith, not proof.

May God bless all of you this joyous season of birth! Praise be to Jesus and the humility He assumed out of love for us.
)’(

Amen to that.

 

[Old_Scholar]

When Joseph fled Bethlehem, they went to Egypt in order to fulfill the prophecy. They didn’t stay there long because their home and Joseph’s business was in Nazareth.

I THINK THEY FLED EGYPT TO MORE THAN JUST FULLFILL A PROPHECY. BESIDES THE FACT THAT THEY WERE PRACTICALLY ORDERED BY AN ANGEL TO DO SO, THEY DID IT TO PROTECT JESUS.

HOW DID YOU COME ABOUT THIS ASSERTION THAT THEY DIDN’T STAY LONG?

REVELATION 12 SPEAKS OF THEIR EXODUS FROM JERUSELUM AN IT TELLS US THAT THEY STAYED AWAY IN THE DESERT (EGYPT) FOR FOUR YEARS.

You’re reading something into Revelation that isn’t there…

SO WHERE DID THEY STAY?

THE BIBLE SAYS THAT THEY DIDN’T RETURN TO NAZARETH UNTIL HEROD WAS DEAD. HEROD DIED IN 0AD,

SO THERE IS A 4 YEAR PERIOD THERE THAT JESUS “WASN’T” FROM NAZARETH.

DO YOU CONSIDER 4 YEARS “NOT” LONG?

**Your dates are all wrong. You must remember that when Jesus was 8 days old, they took Him to Jerusalem for circumcision.
They didn’t leave Bethlehem until Mary had accomplished her 40 days for purification. Herod was King for 37 years and Jesus was born in the 35th year. As soon as Herod died, then Joseph was notified and told to take his family back to nazareth. That could have been as little as slightly more than a year, and up to two years. Nothing like four years as you state.

Herod had killed all the children under 2 years old to be sure he got Jesus, but of course he did not.**