Another Question for LDS

[SirThomasMore]

Mormonism and masonry is very interesting. But it is really not that difficult to understand. Many mormons were masons at the time of Joseph Smith. And these people were not stupid. If something were fishy they would have noticed it. And so what is the story with masonry?

One can read what a mason who is also a mormon has to say about it here:

fairlds.org/Misc/Similarities_between_Masonic_and_Mormon_Temple_Ritual.html

Also, I have already stated that many of the mormons were immigrants whose knowledge of english was limited. Joseph, who was a mason was impressed with how the masons did their ceremonies and he borrowed the structure but not the meaning to teach the people the temple endowments through symbolism.

Here is an interview with Greg Kearney about mormonism and masonry. It is very interesting and refutes the claims of the critics.

mormonstories.org/?p=14

Like I said. I am satisfied with Caprica’s Answer.

 

[Caprica]

Ah…so it WAS a red herring. Because I was specifically talking about your teaching that God was once a sinful man

Please demonstrate the LDS teaching that God was once a sinful man. You have yet to do so.

“As man is, God once was…as man is, Man may become”

You can’t be serious. Athanasius stated “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God”. If you are interpreting “as man is” to mean that God [the Father] was once a sinful man, that you must also interpret Athanasius’ statement that “the Son of God became man” to mean that Jesus was a sinful man. But you won’t be consistent in your misinterpretations. The Catechism states that the Son of God assumed our nature. Using your logic, that means that the Son of God assumed a sinful nature. Again, please be consistent. Clearly “as man is” says nothing about God being a sinful man, otherwise saying that the Son of God assumed “our” nature says the same thing.

My dad came from Florida, I have never lived there. So, laugh away, but my point is still valid. Your parents living somewhere is still a rewd herring

No it isn’t, because you are trying to seem as if you’re the only one here that has been to a third world country, when you are not. I have been to my family’s homeland, and find it highly amusing that you think that I hate poor people, and have reported you to the moderators.

Geez… am saying that in Honduras, not everyone can afford everything. Why do you have a problem with that?

Again, I have never claimed that I had a problem with that, especially when my family comes from a third world country. But please do continue with the false accusations, it provides more for the moderators to address.

They teach what missionaries taught them. At least, they did back then. In Talanga, Honduras, they had no real Church publications. They had what the missionaries left behind. Please don;t be so critical of poor people

See above. So the Church was organized there without any Church publications…right…

For what? I am totally amazed that you cannot comprehend that not everyone in poor countries have access to all the books you are talking about. This is even more amazing when you say you have lived there. I feel as if you have mocked my ex-mother-in-law. So, maybe I will report as well.

Please do. It will be clear that I have never claimed that poor people should have access to everything or that they should be able to afford everything. Instead, you have made false accusations against me. What I am talking about is that if the Church is properly organized with priesthood authority there, the wards, branches, stakes, whatever should have priesthood manuals, sunday school manuals, scriptures, etc. Since exaltation is a central doctrine of the Church (as is the nature of the Godhead), one would certainly be aware of the plurality of gods, even without reading it in the Book of Abraham or D&C. It is clear that you are not addressing the issue, but creating false accusations.

You did not ask about thetopic. You asked specific questions about it. If you want to know how they feel about it, go ask

Why would one have to “go ask” when this is a historical, documented issue. Nice deflection though.

Nice deflection. YOU were asking for how people feel about things, etc. If you want to know, go ask. I told you about what I knew…about the LDS Church down there in 1984-1986 and 1992-1993

It is certainly amazing that you seem to believe that one has to “go” down there and ask to actually know the situation. Again, these are documented things we are talking about, and when asked for documentation you do not provide it, but only talk about your personal experiences (which are valuable, but we are talking about documented issues here).

No, what I claimed was supposition was how you believe they feel. You have not given facts. You have given what certain writers told you. You have no personal experience on your topic. I had personal experience on mine.

See above. Why are you discounting historians? Syncretism in Latin America and Haiti (and Western Africa) is a well documented fact. Please read more on the issue next time.

 

[SirThomasMore]

Caprica,

I started a thread a couple of days ago where I invited people to post things they liked about other deniminations. I feel we tend to focus, on debate boards, aboiut the things that separate us. So, I tried to start a thread so we could discuss the things we liked.

I posted several things I liked about the LDS Church. A couple of other people posted something.

No Mormons posted anything.

I know debate boards can get harsh. It is the nature of the game. But I do not beleive anyone really hates the other. It IS difficult to debate with a Church who has protrayed your church in temple ceremoines as being agents of Satan and called us The Great and Abominable Church, but there is still common ground

 

[Caprica]

Wait, so the Ensign, New Era, Liahona and the Aaronic Priesthood manual are obscure? References from 1971 onwards are obscure? Sorry, I’m laughing right now. Please try again.

That’s ok…I have been laughing at your comments for two days. See how fun this is?

It certainly is. I’m glad that we can laugh at each others comments (though your AtticusFinch incarnation here and at Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board was more…entertaining).

 

[why_me]

Actually, he agreed to go AFTER being shamed by people when he tried to run. He died because he broke the law and was sent to jail. That is not a martyr. Was he wrongfully murdered? Absolutely. But he was no martyr

Not quite. He didn’t die because he broke the law since what he did did not deserve the death penalty has given by lawless mobs of people. You are truly amazing Tom with your lack of charity. It is wonderful that you seem to defend lawlessness. As I said, mormon presses were destroyed but no one paid for their crime.Why? Was the law a little bias at that time? Of course it was.

Joseph Smith was in jail because he went to answer manufactured charges of treason against the state. He voluntarily surrendered to a state official who had guaranteed him and his brother Hyrum protection.

The call for the destruction of the Nauvoo Expositor was not taken by “Joseph Smith,” but by the Nauvoo city council, of which Joseph was a member. The council—which included non-members of the Church—voted to suppress the Expositor as a public nuisance.

The video will not tell you that some scholars have argued that the city council’s action was legal according to Nauvoo city charter. Nor will they tell you that the council’s concern was that the paper was so inflammatory that it might stir up violence.

The viewer also won’t be told that Joseph was released by the Nauvoo municipal court on 13 June 1844. Anti-Mormons claimed this court was biased, so Joseph and others again appeared before non-Mormon judge Daniel H. Wells on 17 June, who discharged them (he did not have power to acquit them, so this was deferred).

Governor Ford of Illinois then asked Joseph to appear before the Carthage judge to satisfy the anti-Mormons. Joseph did so, and was freed on bail. **Joseph and Hyrum were then arrested again because of a writ issued by Robert F. Smith, a Methodist minister, justice of the peace, and captain of the Carthage Grays militia. **

The DVD will not reveal that Joseph was twice released by legal courts. It will not reveal that he was out on bail awaiting trial in a third court when he was rearrested by a religious enemy. Governor Ford broke his promise to protect Joseph and Hyrum, and the Carthage Grays conspired to help murder Joseph.

It almost sounds as if the video is endorsing what happened to Joseph, or saying he “deserved it.” Such an attitude shows contempt for the law and Christian ethics.

Interesting…but critics will never tell you the complications involved.

 

[Caprica]

Caprica,

I started a thread a couple of days ago where I invited people to post things they liked about other deniminations. I feel we tend to focus, on debate boards, aboiut the things that separate us. So, I tried to start a thread so we could discuss the things we liked.

I posted several things I liked about the LDS Church. A couple of other people posted something.

No Mormons posted anything.

I know debate boards can get harsh. It is the nature of the game. But I do not beleive anyone really hates the other. It IS difficult to debate with a Church who has protrayed your church in temple ceremoines as being agents of Satan and called us The Great and Abominable Church, but there is still common ground

I like how you just had to put in the underlined (it certainly is interesting that Protestants tell me that it was “their” church(es) that was portrayed, now you are saying that it was “your” church. Perhaps it never occurred that it really isn’t any specific church…)

I did not see your thread, perhaps because I just tend to focus on threads that have LDS/Mormon in the title. I’ll look at it.

 

[why_me]

That’s ok…I have been laughing at your comments for two days. See how fun this is?

It certainly is. I’m glad that we can laugh at each others comments (though your AtticusFinch incarnation here and at Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board was more…entertaining).

When Tom was at MAD he was ranting and raving against the catholic church. I found myself defending the catholic church against him. And now here I am again, with Tom as catholic, and I am defending the mormon faith. Tom has not really changed. His personality when he was critical of the catholic faith is the same now as he critiques the mormon faith.

He gets his informatiion from critic sites and repeats them here. I then counter his agruments from my own readings and from FAIR:

 

[SirThomasMore]

Please demonstrate the LDS teaching that God was once a sinful man. You have yet to do so.

I did. As man is, God once was." What about that is confusing for you?

You can’t be serious. Athanasius stated “For the Son of God became man so that we might become God”. If you are interpreting “as man is” to mean that God [the Father] was once a sinful man, that you must also interpret Athanasius’ statement that “the Son of God became man” to mean that Jesus was a sinful man.

Not at all. The fact that Jesus became man means just that. He became man. But to say, “as man is, God once was” is different completely. How “is” man? He is sinful. As man is, God was. Prett clear

No it isn’t, because you are trying to seem as if you’re the only one here that has been to a third world country, when you are not. I have been to my family’s homeland, and find it highly amusing that you think that I hate poor people, and have reported you to the moderators.

I never said you hated poor people. Please do not misquote me. I said I do not understand why you have such a problem understanding why they do not have all the books you seem to thing they should have.

Again, I have never claimed that I had a problem with that, especially when my family comes from a third world country. But please do continue with the false accusations, it provides more for the moderators to address.

I am sorry you felt you could not deal with me alone.

See above. So the Church was organized there without any Church publications…right…

Sigh. I never said that, either. But if you have even visited a third-world country, you would know that small towns out of the m ainstream do not get everything. They are POOR.

Please do. It will be clear that I have never claimed that poor people should have access to everything or that they should be able to afford everything. Instead, you have made false accusations against me.

Not true. However, you have against me. It is sad.

What I am talking about is that if the Church is properly organized with priesthood authority there, the wards, branches, stakes, whatever should have priesthood manuals, sunday school manuals, scriptures, etc. Since exaltation is a central doctrine of the Church (as is the nature of the Godhead), one would certainly be aware of the plurality of gods, even without reading it in the Book of Abraham or D&C. It is clear that you are not addressing the issue, but creating false accusations.

I DID address the issue. I even gave you an example of a town. I even told you that most of the books they have are things missionaries left behind. Why do you ignore what I post?

Why would one have to “go ask” when this is a historical, documented issue. Nice deflection though.

Yeah? I never deflected. I actujally spoke to people to get answers. I did not read a book and assumed I knew it all

See above. Why are you discounting historians? Syncretism in Latin America and Haiti (and Western Africa) is a well documented fact. Please read more on the issue next time.

lol…the difference between us, is that I do not rely on the comforts of a library to get my information. I read books on Honduras before I went down there and found that a lot I had read was not accurate. I do not believe everything I read. History books are written from the author’s perspective. Read books about the War Between the States written by the North and those written by the South

 

[why_me]

Like I said. I am satisfied with Caprica’s Answer.

I have no idea what he said…but I do know that he or she isn’t perfect…the poster could be wrong. But hearing it from the horses mouth–a mormon and a mason sounds good to me which is why you should listen to the podcast. You are misinformed about mormons and masons.

 

[SirThomasMore]

That’s ok…I have been laughing at your comments for two days. See how fun this is?

It certainly is. I’m glad that we can laugh at each others comments (though your AtticusFinch incarnation here and at Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board was more…entertaining).

Really? I actually learned a lot from my Spiritual Crisis. I was in a very bad time in my llife. Very, very bad. I considered taking my own life.

I am glad you can mock me and were entertained by my struggle

 

[SirThomasMore]

Not quite. He didn’t die because he broke the law since what he did did not deserve the death penalty has given by lawless mobs of people.

I know. That is why I said he was wrongfully murdered. But, He WAS in jail for breaking the law

You are truly amazing Tom with your lack of charity. It is wonderful that you seem to defend lawlessness.

Really? Did you not see where I said he wrongfully murdered? How is that defending the lawlessness? I am confused. I said he was wrongfully murdered and you think I am defending the killers and saying he deserved it?

 

[SirThomasMore]

It certainly is. I’m glad that we can laugh at each others comments (though your AtticusFinch incarnation here and at Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board was more…entertaining).

When Tom was at MAD he was ranting and raving against the catholic church. I found myself defending the catholic church against him. And now here I am again, with Tom as catholic, and I am defending the mormon faith. Tom has not really changed. His personality when he was critical of the catholic faith is the same now as he critiques the mormon faith.

He gets his informatiion from critic sites and repeats them here. I then counter his agruments from my own readings and from FAIR:

Let me repeat. I was in a very low time in my life and I was very upset about the Bernard Law situation. I was having a very very tough time and, as I said, I considered taking my own life. I am touched by your charity about that time in mky life.

Wow

As a side note…when I recovered and came back to the Catholic Church, I stopped posting at MAD because I refused to post against the LDS Church on the MAD Board.

I am really saddended by your lack

never mind.

 

[SirThomasMore]

by the way, I do not get my info from critic’s sites. The only thing I have gotten from critic’s sites are quotes.

Anythng I post is from LDS Books or books by LDS authors.

 

[SirThomasMore]

I like how you just had to put in the underlined (it certainly is interesting that Protestants tell me that it was “their” church(es) that was portrayed, now you are saying that it was “your” church. Perhaps it never occurred that it really isn’t any specific church…)

It was a Priest in a clerical collar.

I did not see your thread, perhaps because I just tend to focus on threads that have LDS/Mormon in the title. I’ll look at it.

 

[Caprica]

Not at all. The fact that Jesus became man means just that. He became man. But to say, “as man is, God once was” is different completely. How “is” man? He is sinful. As man is, God was. Prett clear

As I said, the Catechism states that the Son of God assumed “our” nature. What is our nature? Sinful (according to you). Therefore the Catechism is teaching (according to your logic) that Jesus had a sinful nature when He was on earth. Please be consistent. “As man is” says nothing about the Father once being sinful, nor does Jesus assuming “our” nature mean that He had original sin (within the Catholic worldview).

I never said you hated poor people. Please do not misquote me. I said I do not understand why you have such a problem understanding why they do not have all the books you seem to thing they should have.

Once again, I have never claimed or implied that I couldn’t understand why they don’t have all books (one does not need to go all the way to a third world country to see this). What I have wondered is how the Church could be organized without any teaching material. That is a valid concern, no matter which church. Especially when that material includes the scriptures.

Sigh. I never said that, either. But if you have even visited a third-world country, you would know that small towns out of the mainstream do not get everything. They are POOR.

So the Church headquarters leaves them without scriptures? I am not talking about individual members there.

I DID address the issue. I even gave you an example of a town. I even told you that most of the books they have are things missionaries left behind. Why do you ignore what I post?

I have not ignored anything. What I do find very odd is that the Church would be organized somewhere by Church headquarters, without scriptures in the branches or wards. And that they would not be aware of such fundamental, central issues as exaltation and the Godhead.

Yeah? I never deflected. I actujally spoke to people to get answers. I did not read a book and assumed I knew it all

And where did I say that I knew it all? Please provide a quote. This is certainly odd that you are against me saying that I learned something from history books, when I thought that you are a lawyer. One does not need to physically speak to people to understand a matter of history. This is how high schools and colleges function.

lol…the difference between us, is that I do not rely on the comforts of a library to get my information. I read books on Honduras before I went down there and found that a lot I had read was not accurate. I do not believe everything I read. History books are written from the author’s perspective. Read books about the War Between the States written by the North and those written by the South

No one believes everything they read (or they shouldn’t). The fact is that we use books in universities to learn. History majors read books and more books. Their education is not devalued because they couldn’t go to the geographical location that they are studying.

 

[Caprica]

It was a Priest in a clerical collar.

So that woman in a clerical collar on tv is a bishop of the Catholic Church? Catholics are not the only ones that have historically worn a clerical collar.

 

[Caprica]

It certainly is. I’m glad that we can laugh at each others comments (though your AtticusFinch incarnation here and at Mormon Apologetics and Discussion Board was more…entertaining).

Really? I actually learned a lot from my Spiritual Crisis. I was in a very bad time in my llife. Very, very bad. I considered taking my own life.

I am glad you can mock me and were entertained by my struggle

I’d like to see where you mentioned any of that over at MADB so that I knew it to be able to “mock [you]” and be “entertained by [your] struggle”. Again, you continue to make false accusations. Your posts there were highly offensive to Catholics, that is all.

 

[StevieD]

This is not exactly true. The nauvoo expositor was an excuse but his days were numbered anyway. Before the Nauvoo Expositor, mormon presses were often destroyed by mobs. No problem with mobs destroying mormon presses. No law bothered to arrest the people who destroyed mormon presses.

What mormon presses were destroyed? The law was ignored by mormons by their own admission, they believed themselves to be above human law and said so.

 

[SirThomasMore]

So that woman in a clerical collar on tv is a bishop of the Catholic Church? Catholics are not the only ones that have historically worn a clerical collar.

The context of the LDS temple film and the knowedge that the Catholic Church was labeled as the Great and Abominable Church made it seem pretty clear to me.

You know, you win. I am not wanting to debate with you anymore. I pray mightily that if you are ever in a low point in your life, people do not mock you.

Maybe later I feel different.

I wish you the best. I hope God blesses you and your family.

Be blessed

 

[RebeccaJ]

The context of the LDS temple film and the knowedge that the Catholic Church was labeled as the Great and Abominable Church made it seem pretty clear to me.

You know, you win. I am not wanting to debate with you anymore. I pray mightily that if you are ever in a low point in your life, people do not mock you.

Maybe later I feel different.

I wish you the best. I hope God blesses you and your family.

Be blessed

Women weren’t wearing clerical collars until the mid 20th century.

(Edited)