Another Question for LDS

  • Thread starter Thread starter SirThomasMore
  • Start date Start date
Status
Not open for further replies.
The newspaper was writing inciteful wording which was meant to stir up the mobs even more. It was founded by an exmormon with an axe to grind. The mormon population of Nauvoo was concerned that the newpaper would incite the non-lds communities to rise up and destroy the city. Thus, the order to close down the newspaper. The mistake was in destroying the print.

However, there was absolutely no problem when mobs destroyed mormon presses. The charges were trumped up with the nauvoo expositor. Joseph, to my knowledge, offered to pay for the damages but…there was a more sinister agenda by the law.

It wasn’t a question of reporting news but inciting people. The mormons of nauvoo knew about polygamy to my understanding.
Of course they knew about polygamy! They were active participants! The paper wasn’t written to them, it was written to those who weren’t in the fold and didn’t know what was going on, the reasons for the church being so secretive.

And yes, to my knowledge, the Nauvoo Expositor staff was made up of former Mormons but an axe to grind? You mean like a man claiming to be a prophet and lying about what he’s doing? Is that what you’re talking about?

Since you have no problem with the Mormons destroying the printing press, it must be okay for me to give your dog a steak soaked in Prestone because it barks and disturbs me, right? That’s exactly what you’re claiming here, that for the church that claims to obey the laws of the land, they can simply ignore them any time they feel like it.

Have you ever read that issue of the NE? I have and there was nothing in it that was inflammatory or untrue. The fact is that the church didn’t want its dirty little secrets widely known.
 
The truth of the matter is, there cannot be a restoration lest there is an apostasy. And since the church is set upon the rock of priesthood authority, then it must have apostolic succession. The only church that claims the same doctrine is the Catholic church. The only way one can put faith in the restoration is if the apostasy applies to the apostolic succession of the Catholic church. This puts the LDS and the Catholics on opposing sides of doctrine. This, however, DOES NOT make LDS hate Catholics.
Whether the church hates Catholics specifically or not, the issue is that the LDS considers itself the church of the Lamb and everyone else belonging to the church founded by Satan, as clearly stated in 1 Nephi 14, chapter heading. There’s no getting around that one.
2.) Jesus Christ is NOT THE CENTER of LDS doctrine
I couldn’t agree more; the center of the LDS faith is one part legalism and one part pursuit of exaltation.
An ex-LDS would know that the church is called The Church of Jesus-Christ of Latter-day Saints. It’s not The Church of Joseph Smith…
So if I decide tomorrow to call my truck the Dodge of Jesus Christ of Bad-*** 4X4s, does that mean that Jesus likes to go off roading? Does it mean that Jesus is a Dodge fan? Or does it mean that Jesus is Bad-*** (no offense intended with that one, all)?

Of course not! No to all of the above! Just because I use Jesus’ name means nothing to Him; it is not and never will be an endorsement any more than if I decide to market a candy bar called Jesus Chocolate Crunch. Besides, who was it the church of when it didn’t use Jesus’ name in the title from 1834 to 1838?
 
Iknow that. In fact, Jesus will not decide who goes to heaven. BY said NO ONE gets to heaven without the permission of Joseph Smith
Most garden-variety Mormons don’t know that (or won’t admit that they do) but it was clearly taught as fact.
 
I have always loved the beauty of Catholic Parishes. I love the reverence inside and Spirit of God that fills it. I love the beauty of the Mass. We are truly with God.

Thank you for placing a bit og Christ into a place devoid of truth
I agree here, too; I love the old basillicas, especially the ones Jackson Square, New Orleans, St. Joseph’s in San Antonio, or Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception in Denver.

They have an air to them that’s heavy with the spirit of God, of history and mystery, of sanctification, and holiness, don’t they?
 
Most garden-variety Mormons don’t know that (or won’t admit that they do) but it was clearly taught as fact.
I love this very common statement…I have to wonder at the logic behind it, though.

After all, if no Mormon KNOWS this, then how can it have been ‘taught as fact,’ especially with the interpretation YOU are putting on it?

I especially enjoy the 'they don’t admit that they do…" as if not knowing something, or denying something, is proof that this ‘something’ is true.

How does that work, exactly? It does seem like an odd logical path…lack of knowledge proves truth. You need to be careful in using it. After all, by the exact SAME reasoning, the fact that you claim that the Book of Mormon is not true proves that it is.
 
SirThomasMore Posted sarcastically:
Iknow that. In fact, Jesus will not decide who goes to heaven. BY said NO ONE gets to heaven without the permission of Joseph Smith
Coming Home posted:
Most garden-variety Mormons don’t know that (or won’t admit that they do) but it was clearly taught as fact.
This is what Diana is referring to.

It is simply an illustration of the ephemeral nature of the teachings of the LDS church. They are denying the teachings of BY, who was accepted as a prophet during his times. Given what we now know of him, this is perfectly reasonable. However, he WAS A PROPHET.
 
I love this very common statement…I have to wonder at the logic behind it, though.

After all, if no Mormon KNOWS this, then how can it have been ‘taught as fact,’ especially with the interpretation YOU are putting on it?

I especially enjoy the 'they don’t admit that they do…" as if not knowing something, or denying something, is proof that this ‘something’ is true.

How does that work, exactly? It does seem like an odd logical path…lack of knowledge proves truth. You need to be careful in using it. After all, by the exact SAME reasoning, the fact that you claim that the Book of Mormon is not true proves that it is.
The Book of Mormon has been shown to be false…the study at Stanford showed that. In addition, the fact you have been unable to show any evidence of the book is also evidence it is fake.

I apologize for this. I know you might never accept the truth. But at least it has been given to you
 
This is what Diana is referring to.

It is simply an illustration of the ephemeral nature of the teachings of the LDS church. They are denying the teachings of BY, who was accepted as a prophet during his times. Given what we now know of him, this is perfectly reasonable. However, he WAS A PROPHET.
To LDS, BY was a part time prophet. Little of what he said is accepted…most is denied and/or run away from
 
Perhaps it is important to note here that the LDS church is a corporation.

And no, I did not get that from some anti-Mormon propaganda, that was told to me by a Mormon Bishop.
 
I love this very common statement…I have to wonder at the logic behind it, though. After all, if no Mormon KNOWS this, then how can it have been ‘taught as fact,’ especially with the interpretation YOU are putting on it?

I especially enjoy the 'they don’t admit that they do…" as if not knowing something, or denying something, is proof that this ‘something’ is true.

How does that work, exactly? It does seem like an odd logical path…lack of knowledge proves truth. You need to be careful in using it. After all, by the exact SAME reasoning, the fact that you claim that the Book of Mormon is not true proves that it is.
You need to reread my post; I didn’t say ‘No Mormon knows…,’ I said most don’t know. Big difference. In fact, most Mormons aren’t that familiar with much of their own history. I don’t assume you know or believe anything other than what is taught today. Feel free to add to that as the conversation progresses, but I will never put words in your mouth or thoughts in your head; I’m simply using what has been taught by the church, past and present, as the standard.

It was taught as fact and that can be proven by simply opening a book, one produced by the LDS itself, one that claims to be scripture: “Joseph Smith holds the keys of this last dispensation, and is now engaged behind the vail (sic) in the great work of the last days…namely, that no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter intot he celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance where God and Christ are…” (Brigham Young, General Conference, Oct 9, 1859, JOD 7:289)

We also see the same sentiment in the song "Praise to the Man: “…crowned in the midst of the propets of old, mingling with Gods, he can plan for his bretheren.” (Gospel Principles pp 358-359, 1996 edition)

And thus it is with many of the church’s teachings; they are taught, fall out of favor, and then forgotten or even denied. This is exactly the case with polygamy and temple marriage being two sides of the same coin of exaltation, the ‘new and everlasting covenant’ in D&C 132:4. Since polygamy is no longer permitted, the church had to redefine its own terms and theology to make it seem plausible.

I’ll assume, however, that you were fully aware of these two things. Did you know that Jesus was once taught to be a polygamist and the reason that he was crucified was because people were jealous of the number of wives he had?

It stands to reason that if the prophet taught something, the people likely believed it.
 
This is what Diana is referring to.

It is simply an illustration of the ephemeral nature of the teachings of the LDS church. They are denying the teachings of BY, who was accepted as a prophet during his times. Given what we now know of him, this is perfectly reasonable. However, he WAS A PROPHET.
But the standard has changed greatly when going from Christian Biblical prophets to LDS prophets. We can look back and see prophecies fulfilled in the Bible, but the LDS, sadly, cannot do the same with their own texts when compared to reality. Their prophets are so in name only because they want them to be, not because they actually make the cut.
 
To be discussing a subject like this is pointless. Comparing apples to oranges.

The Church of LDS proclaims a created Jesus Christ. LDS does not believe in the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

They worship a God that is unknown to Christians who profess the Nicene Creed.

What else needs writing?
 
To be discussing a subject like this is pointless. Comparing apples to oranges.

The Church of LDS proclaims a created Jesus Christ. LDS does not believe in the doctrine of the Holy Trinity.

They worship a God that is unknown to Christians who profess the Nicene Creed.

What else needs writing?
I totally agree, but Mormons still consider themselves to Biblical Christians. Are they all going to Hell for following the Smithian Jesus? I won’t be so arrogant as to believe that; my job isn’t pick the green fruit per se, only to present the facts as they are and let LDS faithful make their own decisions. After that point, it’s between them and their maker but we’re called to minister to those outside the fold, aren’t we?

I try to love Mormons as the children of God they are and treat them accordingly, whether I accept their version of the truth or not. They are largely kind, honest, and hardworking people who happen to take the word of a con man because they haven’t been presented with the reality of God Almighty.
 
I totally agree, but Mormons still consider themselves to Biblical Christians. Are they all going to Hell for following the Smithian Jesus? I won’t be so arrogant as to believe that; my job isn’t pick the green fruit per se, only to present the facts as they are and let LDS faithful make their own decisions. After that point, it’s between them and their maker but we’re called to minister to those outside the fold, aren’t we?

I try to love Mormons as the children of God they are and treat them accordingly, whether I accept their version of the truth or not. They are largely kind, honest, and hardworking people who happen to take the word of a con man because they haven’t been presented with the reality of God Almighty.
I agree. They are lost. They follow the false prophet Jesus warned us about. We have shown that they follow a different God and Jesus than what Christians do. Are they Christians? No. They live good lives and are good people. But to be Christian, they MUST follow the true Christ. We have shown they don’t.

It is our duty to proclaim the truth and pray for them.
 
I agree. They are lost. They follow the false prophet Jesus warned us about. We have shown that they follow a different God and Jesus than what Christians do. Are they Christians? No. They live good lives and are good people. But to be Christian, they MUST follow the true Christ. We have shown they don’t.

It is our duty to proclaim the truth and pray for them.
👍
 
I agree. They are lost. They follow the false prophet Jesus warned us about. We have shown that they follow a different God and Jesus than what Christians do. Are they Christians? No. They live good lives and are good people. But to be Christian, they MUST follow the true Christ. We have shown they don’t.

It is our duty to proclaim the truth and pray for them.
I would also add that doing the right thing for the wrong reason is still fruit from the poisonous tree when taking the word of a proven liar and fraud.
 
Well, if you are surrounded by mobs that want to destroy you and other mormons and force them out or burn them out…stating the obvious might lead to many people dying. By the time mormons reached Nauvoo, they had been through a lot. Many died and private property destroyed. Joseph was also running for president at the time and that angered certain groups of people too. Actually when JS was murdered, he was not just a leader of a church but a presidential candidate. It could also be considered an assasination when he was killed.
And the root cause? The thing you forgot to mention was that Smith told lies, pulled scams while pretending to be a prophet of God. That’s the ultimate reason he was murdered.
 
…and no Catholic…or ‘semi-Catholic’ coming from the history of violence that is one of the hallmarks of Catholic/Christian history, has any right whatsoever to claim that defending oneself against 200 men out to murder one is against ‘Christian ethics.’
There we go, retreating to the old tactic of deflecting issues by going on the attack. The Catholic Church has a lot of blood on its hands and I think it needs to acknowledge that, true, but let’s not get too far from the point here:
Joseph Smith qualified for ‘martyr’ status in OUR view when he deliberately allowed himself to be in that position when he didn’t have to, knowing that he would not come out of it breathing. Since you are, evidently, conversant with the history, you know THAT, too.
Thank you for proving my point; it all revolves around what you believe, not what’s actually a fact. I can believe that I’m Queen Victoria all day long but that doesn’t make it so, does it?
Please pardon me if, since you don’t believe he was a prophet, that your opinion of his martyrdom is moot. Since Mormons are not now, and never have been, pacifists to the degree Quakers are/were, and see no problem at all in battling injustice and acting in defense of family and self, then why do folks like you insist that any of us, even Joseph Smith, et. al, run to meet your peripetetic goal posts?
What I believe isn’t really at issue here as much as what can be demonstrated as fact and we know that Smith has been proven a miserable failure as a prophet. He’s really a prophet in name only since he couldn’t get even one single propecy correct, isn’t he?

Honestly, in this discussion, I don’t use my own standards; I use those laid out by Orson Pratt: “…convince us of our errors or doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God…” (Apostle Orson Pratt, The Seer, Jan 1853, p 15)

If anything, I’m giving you the benefit of the doubt here because I use your texts, subscribe to FAIR, FARMS, the Nephi Project, and watch BYU TV. I’ve even been to LDS mass a few times. That’s the reason you can’t fool me.
 
It’s part of the Christian ethic because Christians have been defending themselves against evil for centuries.

**I defend my own self from evil by going to Confession. It’s easy to look at the past of the Catholic Church and find evil or even the present. It’s also easy to point to Hitler or to any big sin out there. What’s hard is to look in the mirror. But this is a necessity if one wants to know how much God loves. It’s easy to have no cross; it’s a bit harder to have one. It’s hard to look at the cross but even harder to look at the Crucifix. I can point to sin even in my own family through the years. Bu you have to balance it all out with the good as well. You see this is the reality of Christ’s Church. It is not wonder why we have two confessionals next to our Baptismal font. **

…and no Catholic…or ‘semi-Catholic’ coming from the history of violence that is one of the hallmarks of Catholic/Christian / MORMON history, , has any right whatsoever to claim that defending oneself against 200 men out to murder one is against ‘Christian ethics.’

**I am a Catholic and I can say this is against Christian ethics. This is a right given to me from God as well as to His Church. We do have sin in the world, all churches have this sin as well. Precisely why we have Christ’s church. Why we need it for our salvation from sin. **

Joseph Smith qualified for ‘martyr’ status in OUR view when he deliberately allowed himself to be in that position when he didn’t have to, knowing that he would not come out of it breathing. Since you are, evidently, conversant with the history, you know THAT, too.

**Your definition of a martyr is not right at all, not in the Christian sense. You do not desire to die for God while shooting at others. I think Catholic need to post some Christian stories here. **

Please pardon me if, since you don’t believe he was a prophet, that your opinion of his martyrdom is moot. Since Mormons are not now, and never have been, pacifists to the degree Quakers are/were, and see no problem at all in battling injustice and acting in defense of family and self, then why do folks like you insist that any of us, even Joseph Smith, et. al, run to meet your peripetetic goal posts?
Jesus battled injustice by being nailed to the Cross…out of love for His enemies. Paul who had Chrstians put to death, Judas who turned Him in, Peter who denyed Him three times and me who at times forgets who is in charge here… when I gossip or tell a lie etc,think about this.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top