Another reply from Anti-Catholic Father in law

[NotWorthy]

Roman_Catholic:

Even on Sunday though? I fear if I say this he will come back and say " see you dont know what the Church teaches"

Yes, missing the Sunday mass is a sin, unless you are sick or incapable of making it for a very sound reason (i.e. work).

Good Luck to you! I can’t remember when I’ve read so many FANTASTIC answers on one thread! Great work, guys!

One last thing, when your future father in law sprays you with another shot gun blast of questions, simply respond, “Dad, since you’ve changed the subject from your last post, I assume you agree that all my answers were correct and that the Catholic Church’s teachings are true?” Remember, people like this will zero in on a perceived weakness and run like heck from answers that they can’t overcome.

Make them see the weakness in their original arguments before you let them change the subject.

Notworthy

 

[mtr01]

Roman_Catholic:

Even on Sunday though? I fear if I say this he will come back and say " see you dont know what the Church teaches"

Yes, missing even one Sunday Mass is a grave sin. From the Catechism:

2180 The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass."117 "The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day."118

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s2c1a3.htm

The part of paragraph 2180 that I bolded is from the Code of Canon Law, canon 1247.

 

[SemperJase]

Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

Yes, those who deliberately fail. There are plenty of reasons one miss mass. One who is sick on a Sunday does not sin in not going to mass. Her father’s accusation does not accurately represent catholic teaching.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

I am going to send him our creed that we recite every sunday and see what he disagrees with. Anyone see any problems with this?

 

[NotWorthy]

Roman_Catholic:

I am going to send him our creed that we recite every sunday and see what he disagrees with. Anyone see any problems with this?

He’ll probably tell you creeds are man-made inventions that get in the way of your relationship with Christ. Or creeds are man’s way of trying to pigeon-hole God. Or our creed doesn’t have the “altar call” or “sinner’s prayer”, that’s the problem!!!

Try it anyway!

Notworthy

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Thanks Notworthy.

Does anyone know how we should handle when they meet off the email. We agreed to this, backing out now would only show weakness… We cant have that.

Since, afterall it is me gathering the information for her. She knows the stuff but she is not confrontational and with his personality (over bearing) she would break down in front of him and not be able to defend her faith. You should hear their phone conversations

Thoughts?

 

[mtr01]

SemperJase:

Yes, those who deliberately fail. There are plenty of reasons one miss mass. One who is sick on a Sunday does not sin in not going to mass. Her father’s accusation does not accurately represent catholic teaching.

Point taken, but I wouldn’t go so far as to say there are plenty of reasons. Perhaps a little more specificity in language is in order…deliberately missing Sunday Mass without a valid reason is a grave sin.

 

[mtr01]

Roman_Catholic:

Thanks Notworthy.

Does anyone know how we should handle when they meet off the email. We agreed to this, backing out now would only show weakness… We cant have that.

Since, afterall it is me gathering the information for her. She knows the stuff but she is not confrontational and with his personality (over bearing) she would break down in front of him and not be able to defend her faith. You should hear their phone conversations

Thoughts?

What type of meeting is this going to be? Are you talking about a casual encounter, or an agreed upon discussion of the issues?

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

mtr01:

What type of meeting is this going to be? Are you talking about a casual encounter, or an agreed upon discussion of the issues?

When she comes home for summer he is going to want to see her and their conversation always end up in this direction. She is going to school out of state. He has even invited her to go on one of his evangalizing missions in Seattle. But she told him she would do that as soon as he want to Mass with her, so that will never happen.

 

[SemperJase]

Roman_Catholic:

Does anyone know how we should handle when they meet off the email. We agreed to this, backing out now would only show weakness… We cant have that.

Since, afterall it is me gathering the information for her. She knows the stuff but she is not confrontational and with his personality (over bearing) she would break down in front of him and not be able to defend her faith. You should hear their phone conversations

Thoughts?

This is the man who refuses to see her if you are present. I would say she should back out until he accepts that you are a part of her life.

He is overbearing, why should she subject herself to that? It is not showing weakness, it is setting boundaries.

 

[havemercy]

Courage and charity. I wish you and your fiancee well! Praying.

 

[VociMike]

Roman_Catholic:

Thanks Notworthy.

Does anyone know how we should handle when they meet off the email. We agreed to this, backing out now would only show weakness… We cant have that.

If he is pressuring her, there is no reason for her to subject herself to that. She should not subject herself to his haranguing, if that is what he is going to do. Why does he have the right to challenge her faith? Why are you all approaching this from the viewpoint that you must defend her faith to him? Why shouldn’t he have to defend his faith to her?

My recommendation is for the two of you to get out of the mindset that you have to defend the Catholic faith to him. He is not a prosecutor, and she is not on trial. She is not defending a doctral thesis. If she does want to continue this discussion, he should have to defend his own departures from the ancient (Catholic) faith. Make him prove sola Fide, sola Scriptura, the canon of the Bible, the symbolic-only interpretation of the Eucharist, the thousands of different beliefs in the Protestant world (can’t the Holy Spirit teach everybody the same thing?) etc, etc.

 

[VociMike]

Roman_Catholic:

You should hear their phone conversations

“Dad, I don’t like the tone or the substance of this conversation. We either need to change the subject or I’m going to have to hang up now. I really must insist that you to stop harassing me about my faith in Jesus Christ and the Church He founded.”

 

[Orionthehunter]

Just a couple of comments that are meant for food for thought and discernment by RC and his wife-to-be.

**Should you be so intimately involved in this discussion between a father and daughter? ** I know she has asked you for help but I’m not so sure you should be willing to be so directly involved. If I were having this type of discussion w/ my daugher prior to marriage, I’d resent what I’d percieve as a person interfering w/ my relationship w/ my daughter. It might lead to a permanent break in any relationship w/ the guy who is to become my son-in-law. This conflict will break a daughter/wife’s heart for her entire life. After a husband, a dad is the most valued man in her life. To have them not get along will be very painful.

Daughters know better than anyone on how to reach a father’s heart. Encourage her to pray about the best way to handle this. While you might think that taking an apologetic approach is best, it may not be. The best way might be “Dad, I love this guy who God has called me to love totally. We need to be one in body, soul and faith.” Or it might be, “Dad, you always told me to follow my heart as it is the voice of God. This is in my heart. God is speaking to me.” Let her discern this in prayer w/ the Holy Spirit. She sounds like a solid gal who doesn’t need your advice (don’t take that personal, she just has more years dealing w/ her dad).

Dad’s have a hard time letting their kid’s spread their wings, especially daughters. Trust me. This dad knows as he is about to deal w/ #3 child (#2 daughter) going off to college. For some each it gets easier as you go thru it a few times and for some it is as painful as the first time. Each big moment (First date, First boyfriend, going to college, getting married) are times that we have to let go. And sometimes it requires us to work thru the situation with the passage of time. His opposition to the change of faith and his desperate aggressiveness could be as related to her getting married as it is about the Church. (Don’t take it personal, your daughter could be marrying his minister’s son and the trauma is just as bad) But this is just his excuse. Time and love heals the pain caused by each of these big moments. Maybe an approach that centers on firmness of resolve, little debate that will cause people to say things they regret and dig in their heels, and many conscious acts of love will allow Dad to come to some level of acceptance and that might be all that is possible.

 

[Semper_Fi_1]

Roman_Catholic:

My future father in law answered our email. Want to know what every feels should be said in response.

Looking for a response to this. Doesnt really bring up any problems just a lot of speculations and more misconceptions. He says to follow him but than goes on to say not to trust a man cloacked in religion (a Father) but to use her own intellect. Hmmmmm. remember we are trying to be charitable with the hope to rid him of some misconceptions

Thanks

Obviously your Father in law shows his lack of knowledge of Catholic theology and belief in his reply. He stated that if you miss mass one time you committed a mortal sin. This is false. For a mortal sin to occur there must be 3 conditions met. Those 3 conditions are:

its subject must be ‘grave matter’;
it must be committed with full knowledge, both of the sin and of the gravity of the offense;
it must be committed with deliberate and complete consent.

thus we cannot know who has committed a mortal sin, only God can.

 

[Jabronie]

Roman_Catholic:

Thanks Notworthy.

Does anyone know how we should handle when they meet off the email. We agreed to this, backing out now would only show weakness… We cant have that.

Since, afterall it is me gathering the information for her. She knows the stuff but she is not confrontational and with his personality (over bearing) she would break down in front of him and not be able to defend her faith. You should hear their phone conversations

Thoughts?

I was thinking about this when you explained the situtation. I think that these emails NEED to be in her own words. The replies you have written are great, but before sending it off, you should have her rewrite it with her own “language”

Otherwise, you’re both running the risk of looking phony when the person-to-person meetings take place.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Well I sent the reply… Thanks for everyones help!

I had her look over it to add or take out anything that she didnt want to put in there.

Who ever said we shouldnt have to be defending ou faith, he should be defending his is right. Maybe that is where the next email will go when he responds, which he will.

I will post his reponse later tonight when he responds.

Their relationship is already shattered. She was kicked out when he found out I was Catholic and she was dating me and she refused to stop seeing me. So we went to school together out of state which further angered him because he couldnt watch her play softball. Trust me their relationship couldnt get any worse so I am not worried about getting in between their relationship (as of right now they dont have a relationship, these are their own words). She has given this man more chances than he deserves really.

She asked if he was going to our wedding he said:

“I have a year to think about it, I am unsure right now. I wouldnt even know the woman getting married. She wouldnt be the woman I raised.”

She has come to the conclusion that she probably wont ask him again.

 

[Orionthehunter]

Roman_Catholic:

Well I sent the reply… Thanks for everyones help!

I had her look over it to add or take out anything that she didnt want to put in there.

Who ever said we shouldnt have to be defending ou faith, he should be defending his is right. Maybe that is where the next email will go when he responds, which he will.

I will post his reponse later tonight when he responds.

Their relationship is already shattered. She was kicked out when he found out I was Catholic and she was dating me and she refused to stop seeing me. So we went to school together out of state which further angered him because he couldnt watch her play softball. Trust me their relationship couldnt get any worse so I am not worried about getting in between their relationship (as of right now they dont have a relationship, these are their own words). She has given this man more chances than he deserves really.

She asked if he was going to our wedding he said:

“I have a year to think about it, I am unsure right now. I wouldnt even know the woman getting married. She wouldnt be the woman I raised.”

She has come to the conclusion that she probably wont ask him again.

They might not have a relationship that is on a good track but they have a relationship that can never be truly broken. And they are obviously concerned about the relationship in that they are talking on the phone and emailing. Nobody is probably dealing w/ it very well but it can be much worse- they could not be communicating.

Also, any father who would respond that he might not come or that the woman getting married isn’t the person he raised is a father who is hurting. I pray that your daughter won’t respond by making the hurt worse. Yes, more is expected from whom much is given as she is the one who is coming into the fullness of the Truth.

Finally, only in the very most severe and extreme examples should a daughter not invite a father to her wedding. Granted, she might put some restrictions in that he at least has to keep his mouth shut and not be a distraction to the wedding. But, failing to invite him is an act she can never take back and certainly isn’t consistent w/ the “honor your father” commandment (it doesn’t say to honor only good fathers). What he does w/ it, is his call.

 

[Fuerza]

I didn’t read every single post on this thread, so forgive me if it’s already been said. With regard to the issue of Purgatory, no Protestant will be convinced that it’s in the Bible, no matter what you show them. You may want to point out that a belief in purification after death is even found in Judaism. They believe that people who die with some attachment to sin undergo a form of purification which can last up to 12 months. It’s not exactly the same as our Purgatory, but, for those who don’t believe it’s biblical, it goes to show that we didn’t just make it up.

 

[Roman_Catholic_1]

Orionthehunter

Of course you are right. I am not a father so I couldnt possibly understand the love this man has for his daughter even if I dont see it.

But what are you suggesting? The only thing he wants to talk about is her decision in joining the Church. Should she switch and say that she no longer wants to discuss religion, which she tried before and he stopped talking to her?

Let me know God Bless