Another senseless death of a white man. Will charges ever be pressed?

[ZemD]

I support law enforcement generally, but I disagree based on the video of Daniel’s death that this cop was justified. The cop was not clear in his instruction and his confusion caused a man to die.

He gives confusing directions throughtout, that I couldn’t follow as someone who is sober and not under duress of being shot. “Hands on your head, hands in the air, cross your legs, crawl towards me”, ect. Those are physically impossible directions to follow simultaneously. I agree, Daniel should not have reached for his waistband. That was a fatal mistake, the cop was reasonable to assume he may be reaching for a gun. But the cop was completely unreasonable in the string of directions he gave.

 

[Polak]

Oh completely agree the cop was unreasonable. The way he was giving his instruction caused the poor guy to panic more.

 

[BlueMaxx]

Before this devolves into lockdown I would like to proffer a different angle on what is/has been happening to police forces nationwide.

But first, we must travel back to 9/11…actually we must travel back even further to the 2nd of August 1990.
This was the beginning of the gulf war…for better or worse we have been in the ME fighting, cross training, arming since this first war…boots on the ground started here.

These men and women grew older, the nature of their existence persisted.
They had children and their children had children bringing along the baggage of broken homes, drug and alcohol abuse to numb the pain and violence.
Some of these children now went on to serve. Already mentally fragile and scarred.

Fast forward to 9/11.
Now the conflict had reached our shores.
Technically it started with the twice failed attempt by the Sheikh Omar Abdel-Rahman commonly referred to as the blind Sheikh.

After 9/11 there was a huge surge of young people racing to join up in the armed forces…the conflict dragged on…even until this day we are still in Afghanistan, still taking casualties still exposing our troops the horrors of man at this most vile.
Think about it, 2001 was 9/11 and nearly twenty years later here we are.

 

[BlueMaxx]

So these troops come home and now have children born in the year of the attack in 2000 more than old enough to join the military.

What does this have to do with price brutality?

A cauterization of the conscience, PTSD, an indifference to life, even unto themselves.

Take a look at the rate of suicides going back to 1990 of veterans.
Right now the latest is that nearly 20 veterans A DAY commit suicide…their mind and soul is that tortured, they are on fire from the inside.
As far as police it earns the title of the occupation with the highest suicide rate of any profession.

So the question, how do you go from a police force whose origination was to protect and serve to assault and intimidate…even to murder.

For those of us old enough we would have said that the Police would never turn against the population.

But here we are…

 

[BlueMaxx]

Now take a look at the statistics of how many former soldiers find employment with police forces after their military service.

They bring this rage, this unresolved pain, this conscious rejection of empathy, and it comes into life on their job.
Some with the addition of systemic damage from godless dysfunctional families.

I worked in an Industrial Supply house for 15 years after I got out of the arena.
I had been a Paramedic for years. Before that In was a Marine.
I know about PTSD. Which is why I am writing this.

Now I sold industrial supplies…My company was one of the main suppliers for government contracts

During President Obamas first term a HUGE amount of money was given to state and local police agencies to purchase and outfit their departments.
Recession…the governments answer was to throw more money at the problem…get companies spending again even if it meant propping them up.
They were even given incentives by encouraging them to overbuy or else the funds were taken back. Our salespeople were highly aggressive, it was more money in their pockets.
Capitalism at it’s worst…I saw local EMS agencies and hospitals buying mobile military grade hospitals.

Then came the militarization of our police.

I was a medic a good long while…back when you showed up with the police they did not arrive in full body armor driving a military MRAP repainted as a police vehicle executing military tactics that had once been reserved for only a special SWAT unit.

Now the veterans.

They brought with them honed skills of violence, where the reaction was not of a police but of a war worried veteran…you do not try and control the enemy we were taught in the Marines…you were there to kill…and your reflexes, your mind, your body was trained to not think, but react and attack.

This was the start of a nightmare…I knew from being in third world crud holes what was coming.

So, now here we are…veteran and police suicides at an all time high…police brutality and murder skyrocketing…modern technology has cameras bringing to light what had been slowly evolving in the dark.
Suppressed complaints, military like CYA between officers.

We have went from the presence of the occasional “bad cops” and backwood bubba good ol’ boy racist police to these mentally scarred, heavily armed juggernauts with a first reaction to not subdue but to eliminate any and all threat.

I do not believe in defunding the police, but I do believe in a complete overhaul of the militarization of the police.

I believe any candidate for the force should be screened and if they had seen combat or been stationed in war torn places for duty examined thoroughly for PTSD.

God has been removed from the public eye…destitution and violence and lawlessness has filled the void…anarchy carries the day.

Just my perspective.

M

 

[blackforest]

You said they didn’t talk about it, and I showed you that this was incorrect.

No I think the point being made was that nobody ever seems to talk about cases where white men are unjustly killed by police. The mainstream media certainly doesn’t.

I’m being sincere, not mean. I appreciate you clarifying that they do indeed bring it up.

I’m not going to indulge your accusations of “race-baiting” but will instead stand with our Bishops. http://www.usccb.org/news/2020/20-83.cfm

 

[jeannetherese]

I’m not going to indulge your accusations of “race-baiting” but will instead stand with our Bishops.

I don’t think that you are being accused of “race-bating” blackforest; rather, I think that the press is being accused of exploiting a problem.
Decades ago, Noam Choamsky contended that the purpose of the press was to sell readers (viewers) to advertisers.
Some stories seem to sell better these days than others.

 

[Mister_Friscus]

It’s unfair to say that a country of 330 million people won’t have tragedies. After all, we are humans. Police will have not only bad shoots, but immoral people among their ranks. The question is, what is the ratio? The leftist movement would have you believe that nearly all police have problems with aggressive violent racism , and that the murder of innocent blacks is widespread. The numbers given here prove that’s not correct. There were a few pockets of the most horrid people who were preists in the Catholic Church… should all priests own this immorality? The numbers say it was a small few, but we have to fight condemning the 99.99% simply because there’s a bad 0.01%. That’s what’s happening in America with the Marxist BLM movement.

You can’t cling onto a “one is too many” fallacy. Otherwise, we’d have to eliminate most things in our society and go back to living in caves… to avoid anyone from dying from anything at anytime (which would ironically cause far more death).

Also, BLM could prove it wasn’t a racist movement by openly advocating for some of these tragedies to be looked into that involve white people. However, I don’t think they care enough to act for people who aren’t black. They are tribal, and value lives differently based on their skin color. So how does one do this and live with themselves? Easy… Actively Victimize yourself, and try to say that you’re being unjustly murdered at all times across the nation. That way, you can be a “racist”, act only for your own skin color, and pat yourself on the back for doing it. Of course, this could be done by any group. So who gets to say what? Well, that’s where numbers and observational measures come into place, and based on the rhetoric there is a gigantic difference between claims/representations and actual deaths

To outwardly convince a race of 30,000,000 that they are being hunted and exterminated by police when 10 unarmed were killed in a single year last year is terrorizing and politically deviant. It’s immoral, and arguably lying. Is it not? Numbers matter. The ratios of what is being said and what happens is astronomically different, and yet BLM, the mainstream media, and the Democrat party continue to repeat these slogans and claims over and over.

It’s political. There’s no value of human life here.

 

[Uliana988]

Social workers are also to blame. There are those who are told by their social worker that they will make more money if they are unmarried. Some married women are told they could make more money if they weren’t. Guess what sometimes happens?

There’s another thing: I am somewhat disabled (unable to work full time due to bad scoliosis). When I was on “disability”, before I was married, I was told by my social worker that if I got a job, I had to report it, so they could adjust my benefits. I told her that if I could work, then I wouldn’t need “Disability”. She looked dumbfounded. I suppose she never met someone who didn’t want free money.

 

[blackforest]

I’ve almost exhausted myself addressing these same Right Wing talking points in other threads. But they’re so fallacious that I’ll address them here again.

It’s unfair to say that a country of 330 million people won’t have tragedies.

Who on earth made this claim?

A tragedy could be a death from a car accident or cancer. It can happen passively. The deaths in question - be they of George Floyd, Tony Timpa, or any other police brutality victim - were caused by officers making the active choice to kill them.

The leftist movement would have you believe that nearly all police have problems with aggressive violent racism , and that the murder of innocent blacks is widespread. The numbers given here prove that’s not correct.

The available numbers - gleaned from media reports and FBI and Bureau of Justice statistics - prove that there is a disproportionate number of African-American victims of police violence. Racism is a reasonable hypothesis to at least consider.

Otherwise, we’d have to eliminate most things in our society and go back to living in caves… to avoid anyone from dying from anything at anytime (which would ironically cause far more death).

You speak as thought these deaths are a passive process. The latest surge of BLM wasn’t caused by just any death. It was provoked by an unjust killing of a man who most certainly didn’t deserve the death penalty. The official stand of our Bishops is to oppose such injustice. Statement of U.S. Bishops’ President on George Floyd and the Protests in American Cities | USCCB

You are Catholic, correct?

Also, BLM could prove it wasn’t a racist movement by openly advocating for some of these tragedies to be looked into that involve white people.

This sentence, a.k.a. the "All Lives Matter trope, is the fallacy of whataboutism. Focusing on one injustice in no way signals a lack of concern about others.

The Asian-American Journalists Association isn’t racist for working on behalf of Asian-Americans. The National Hispanic Institute isn’t racist for representing the interests of Hispanic and Latin@ Americans. Pro-lifers aren’t “hypocrites” just because opposing abortion doesn’t involved born people. And just because the American Cancer Society focuses on Cancer, it doesn’t mean its members want people to die of heart disease.

Actively Victimize yourself, and try to say that you’re being unjustly murdered at all times across the nation.

Pointing out injustice is not victimization.

To outwardly convince a race of 30,000,000 that they are being hunted and exterminated by police when 10 unarmed were killed in a single year last year is terrorizing and politically deviant.

49, actually. https://policeviolencereport.org/

Please study the data carefully and get back to us. Accuracy is crucial to these conversations.

 

[LeafByNiggle]

Police will have not only bad shoots, but immoral people among their ranks. The question is, what is the ratio?

Higher for black victims than for white victims. That is the point. If we can limit the damage to white people we should be able to limit the damage to black people just as much.

The leftist movement would have you believe that nearly all police have problems with aggressive violent racism

It is always easier to win an argument when you can state what your opponent’s view is rather than letting your opponent say what his view is.

and that the murder of innocent blacks is widespread.

It is wider spread than it is for whites.

There were a few pockets of the most horrid people who were preists in the Catholic Church… should all priests own this immorality?

You will notice that all priests are now subject to additional scrutiny and screening at seminary as a result of the actions of a few. So your example does not support your point.

The numbers say it was a small few, but we have to fight condemning the 99.99% simply because there’s a bad 0.01%.

I will refer you back to your excellent example that supports my point. The Catholic abuse scandal. We don’t condemn the 99.99% of priests, but we do subject them to additional safeguards as a result. We could do the same thing for police. (I am not for eliminating all police.)

That’s what’s happening in America with the Marxist BLM movement.

To paraphrase your defense of police, should we condemn the 99.99% of peaceful and non-Marxist protesters just because of a small group of activists who have adopted Marxist positions?

You can’t cling onto a “one is too many” fallacy.

I’m not claiming that X=1 is too many. I am stating that X > Y, and that is what makes X too many.

Also, BLM could prove it wasn’t a racist movement…

They have nothing to prove, so attributing a view to them by what the don’t say is another fallacy. You could just as well say that the NRA does not care about cancer because they have never advocated for increased cancer research. Sounds silly, doesn’t it?

To outwardly convince a race of 30,000,000 that they are being hunted and exterminated by police when 10 unarmed were killed in a single year…

You are judging only based on the most egregious cases of injustice that make national news. Blacks who live this reality on a daily basis see this as part of a pattern that includes such things and unnecessary traffic stops and incidents like the Central Park birdwatcher.

 

[jeannetherese]

This sentence, a.k.a. the "All Lives Matter trope, is the fallacy of whataboutism.

I don’t think it is whataboutism, blackforest. Rather, it is including black lives as a subset of life-it incorporates. When one says all lives matter, black lives are not excluded; rather they are included and upheld as part of respect for life.

 

[Zach]

Some, one or two specifically, thou doth protest too much in all these threads. Just a note, if you are constantly pontificating in long posts, people eventually tune you out a stop reading. Nobody is so interesting and wonderful that people (speaking for myself and many I’ve heard express similar sentiments) want to keep reading his or her long winded, predictable posts on an Internet forum.

Come down off your pedestal and down a few rungs of the abract ladder. I don’t care about anyone’s ideological agenda. Here is the reality of the real world, not the ivory tower, the cable news studio, or Internet forum: In the overwhelming majority of cases (I know the exceptions so no need to remind me)
if you don’t resist arrest, you don’t have any trouble. Police don’t have the luxury of Monday morning quarterbacking. They react in the spur of the moment. If you want to resist the man or woman doing their job with a gun at their side, then what comes your way is difficult to predict. Not a smart move. Be respectful, be cooperative and (again I know the exceptions) the overwhelming majority of time you’ll be ok. This should be drilled into every youth’s head every day.

My self imposed Internet time is up. I’ll be back late this or next week.

 

[goout]

The elephant in the room is unions.
Unions are good per se, but they have come to the point of protecting members, just because they are members. And not all the members behave well, and some ought to be fired without the protection of the union.

 

[jeannetherese]

I can’t imagine being a police officer without a union to protect me. Unions an offer a countervailing power, they can advocate for rules and guidelines, they can provide some measure of protection against arbitrary orders.
There actually are ways of losing one’s job/ being fired despite being a member of a union and they generally involves some form of due process.
It may take a while to weed out a problematical worker (just as it may take a while to incarcerate someone who engages in criminal behavior) but due process is important.

 

[blackforest]

When one says that black lives matter, they are not saying that other lives don’t. Throwing in, “What about white people?” is indeed a whataboutism in the same manner as asking pro-lifers, “What about born people?”

 

[jeannetherese]

To say: “All lives matter” is not the same thing as to say: “What about white people?” This is a false opposition.
The former is a statement; the latter, a question.
To say all lives matter is inclusive and does not single out a group identity, let alone isolate ,contrast, or pit identities against each other.

 

[blackforest]

“All lives matter” misrepresents the position of those who say “black lives matter.” Nobody said that only black lives matter and others lives don’t. Pointing out one human rights violation against one group of people doesn’t mean that nobody else matters.

 

[Rau]

You can’t cling onto a “one is too many” fallacy.

It’s not a fallacy. It’s a reminder of the need for awareness and vigilance and the obligation to not accept injustice. It’s import is NOT that the “baby should be thrown out with the bath water”.

 

[Rau]

When one says all lives matter, black lives are not excluded; rather they are included and upheld as part of respect for life.

That’s true. But I think the motivation of some to change the subject to “all” is to deny that there might be a specific problem affecting blacks.