Another Slap In The Face For Americans!

[Bullfighter]

Here in ireland the official language is Irish, but most people (including the government) speak English as a first language.

And in Quebec, the government will actually pay people to learn French. I think if I were younger, I’d move there but I got stuck living at the Alamo.

 

[bookgirl32]

bookgirl32;

The English people (from Old English: Englisc) are a nation and ethnic group native to England who speak English.

Also, “English” people from England are about as native to Britain as Americans are to the US. The Celts, in various different forms (which are now people considered native Irish, Scottish, Welsh and Cornish) are comparable to the Native Americans as far as “natives” go. Is anyone REALLY a native, anyway?

 

[redhen]

ANd again, this is not official documentation of the Church’s position, this is an opinionated blog putting together information to make a someone’s personal point.

But he is quoting from news releases and statements of American Bishops, Cardinals and the USCCB.

Let’s be realistic for a moment. The birth rates of Americans of European descent is in free fall (Mormons excepted). Latino birth rates in the U.S. continue to climb. This explains why more and more jobs in the Phoenix diocese, for example, require bilingualism (English/Spanish) for positions that involve catechism and youth ministry.

It’s simple demographics.

 

[bookgirl32]

Maui71

Hardly an equal comparrison, Maui. We are not blaming our ills on minorities and/or seeking to annihilate them. Rhetoric may escalate by some out of frustration at our politicians who are more concerned with their votes than their nation and her people. Do we have issues with lawlessness and our economy and taxes? You bet, and we have every right to be upset about those issues.

It’s not that we hate our neighbors, it’s that we have an issue with 15 million of them coming here illegally. And many of them using our tax payers services for free, only to take 20 billion out of our economy and send it elsware. Or lowering the standard of living and lowering of wages, all while violating our laws. You expect us to be gracious about that?

We should clamp up on charity, there seems to be plenty enoough to go around already!

There is a difference between how some people who have issues with the immigration problems of the US are presenting themselves on this board. From what I’ve quickly read, your opinion is shared by many Americans and there’s nothing wrong with that. Although we all have the responsibility to care for the poor, that does not mean we have to like the way our country is necessarily handling things.

Although I would give this example, which was given to me by my priest and spiritual advisor:

Have you ever read Les Miserables by Victor Hugo? (Or seen the musical – not by Victor Hugo )? In it the lead character steals a loaf of bread b/c it is the one option immediately left to him at that time to feed himself and his family. In this SPECIFIC case, he has a right to the bread under natural / moral law placed by God and is not breaking the law by stealing it.

Sometimes, there are similar cases. Sometimes it is not the fault of the people abusing the system (sometimes it is).

 

[bookgirl32]

How can one tribe of Indians claim to own an area that could hold millions of people. The Europeans improved the land they entered. They broght civilization to America. No one can deny this. The American Indian was stuck in a world that was centuries old. That was the way it was.

Why do people defend the American Indian, then click away at their keyboards condemning those who defend progress? That’s crazy. Imagine a world where you live in a teepee instead of modern homes with all the conveniences. Would you prefer the teepee?

Um, you could read my post again and respond to what I actually wrote. That, in fact, NONE of us, ultimately, really have a right to the land we live on, it was given to us by God. The problem is, you’re acting like the fact that you are in the position you are in (you’re white and you were born an American and hold valid American citizenship) was because of something you did to deserve it. You have the rights of the American citizen because you were born here, you didn’t do anything to earn that, God blessed you with it. Which is in turn why you should share in the blessings.

I’m not defending the problems that exist within the US’ immigration system. But if you came from this point of view that I’ve listed above, that you were abundantly blessed simply by virtue of being born where you were, and the others were not, you may gain some charity at least in your understanding of the problem.

 

[bookgirl32]

Imagine a world where you live in a teepee instead of modern homes with all the conveniences. Would you prefer the teepee?

And of course all Native Americans (calling them Indians doesn’t offend me because it’s politically incorrect, I really don’t care about that, but it is inaccurate) still live in teepees.

 

[RobertLGarrett]

I’ll remember that when their breaking into my home.

Good. You should.

 

[Maui71]

The Catholic charity on this thread is KILLING ME!

Truth be said there are solutions to this problem. First the problem can easily be fixed with a change in the law. As this is not a moral problem, nor and ethical problem it is simply a discriminatory problem. The law selects who can and cannot.

A discrimination (scholastic sense of the word (I hate being PC)) of resident vs. non-resident alien. If one takes it beyond that it quickly falls into the realm of hate.

Yes hate. Because the only thing that is driving this issue is does the person have the “right” to work in this country or not. I am sure a multi-millionaire illegal won’t bother much of those complaining on the board. Yes they do exist all you need to do is take a stroll down South Beach or Brickell avenue and you will find rich Brazilians and Colombians and Venezuelans overstaying their visas. They are as illegal as Pablo Pueblo.

So if we change the law to allow our dear southern brothers to work in our great country then there is no more problem because they are not illegal. Wow how simple. But wait there will be resistance because we need to protect American Jobs!! The reality is that the majority will be filling in a labor vacuum that people here refuse to take. It is also a myth that the laborers work for a fraction of minimum wage. If we give out permits to work we will collect all the taxes we need. It will also make the reward (paycheck) less of an accomplishment as it is now to work as an illegal in the US.

So when the “problem” is inspected at the root it is clearly a self created problem that has a truly easy fix.

But if the root when inspected is hate in your heart then a good examination of conscience is needed.

I can’t help but comment on the “American Culture” topic. Because the “American Culture” of the 40’s is not the one in 60’s and it sure isn’t the culture of today. So if your definition of American Culture is the English Language please just come out and say it. I agree that the national language for the US should be English just like the official language of the Church is Latin but I don’t agree that other languages should be subdued or blotted out of public use. The world is shrinking and it would be in the best interest of the US to begin to look at requiring a second language truly taught in schools (any of the top 5 other languages) just like our European brothers do. My 2 cents.

 

[bookgirl32]

Here in ireland the official language is Irish, but most people (including the government) speak English as a first language.

Well, to lighten the thread, I’d sure love to hear you SAY that to hear the accent, love it, love Ireland,

From the many times removed child of an Irish immigrant

 

[neat62]

Maui71;

However, the claim that 15 million are lawless and do not pay taxes is absolutely false. Now if you are in the US and are so “illegally” it is a misdemeanor like a traffic ticket if you have not been caught before. Terrible criminal. Now if you have been deported and re-enter then it is a felony and you are a criminal. Title 8 Section 1325 of the U.S. Code. Interesting.

Never said any of the above. It is against the law to come here or be here illegally. Most illegals probably do pay taxes, but probably most of them, seeing as how I am told that they do all the jobs that Americans won’t do, which is low paying, then based on that claim, most of them essentially do not pay taxes. Just like an American kid working at McDonalds.(if there are any left) It makes it hard to get a job, when all of the positions are filled, no?

Back to taxes this is my favorite; Illegal’s pay more taxes than we think. If illegal has and uses a SS# that is not theirs - they will never get that benefit. The Social Security administration has the stats on how much additional revenue they receive from people working under someone else’s SS (no one is complaining about that).

I will complain. SS is messed up with or without immigrants and needs to be overhauled.

Sales tax - every time an illegal goes to Wal-Mart to buy jeans, sneakers, detergent they are putting money into the State and/or Municipalities coffers (no one is complaining about that). Let’s see in this depressed real estate market illegals that pay rent (they all need some where to live) pay for the real estate taxes that fund most states (I know the landlords aren’t complaining)

I don’t see my property taxes going down. Plus the real issue here, is government spending, not illegals, nor should it be.

Social services such as schools and hospitals - are paid primarily through sales and real estate taxes - Both which are paid directly and indirectly through real estate taxes. I bet you have no idea how many illegals own houses in the US!! They pay real estate taxes just like their non-illegal (US resident) neighbors do.

Illegals cost the state of California alone, 10 billion dollars a year. Their governor is saying that they will last only two more years.

So to say they are getting a free ride is really less than truthful. Yes ok, most illegals work for 2-3 years and return to their country with large sums of money saved. That reminds me I did not speak about fed income taxes. Boy do they really help out there.

“Households headed by illegal aliens imposed more than $26.3 billion in costs on the federal government in 2002 and paid only $16 billion in taxes, creating a net fiscal deficit of $10.4 billion, or $2,700 per illegal household,” said Steven A. Camarota, author of the study.
washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A33783-2004Aug25.html

We have a graduated tax system. So Joe Jackson hires Pablo Pueblo to work in his factory. Pablito is an illegal Joe can’t get anyone to do the midnight shift. Joe pays Pablo $10 per hour. Pablo works for 45 hours a week for 52 weeks a year (he can’t complain) so Joe pays him 23,400. Joe has 10 employees like that so that amounts to $234,000 lets assume none of the illegals are using other peoples SS so no withholdings are occurring. Joe cannot deduct those salaries on his company’s tax return.

If Joe is in a 35% bracket Joe is paying an additional $81,900 in Fed INCOME TAXES for not using legal employees. Had that money gone to legal employees the US Treasury department at best would have only collected $18,100 assuming the taxpayer is single no dependant filer the tax on 23,400 would be $1,810 * 10 taxpayers = $18,100.

And you are advocating the use illegals over actual AMERICAN citizens? People that are born here and have their lives rooted here? That will stay here? Nice. I remember why I am against you.

So much for the myth that illigals don’t pay tax everyone legal or illegal pays directly or indirectly.

Well that myth is a myth. And I certainly have never made such claims. Please reply to what I say, not what you think I say.

Perfect example is the kosher meat plant somewhere in the Midwest. There is a shortage of kosher meat now because the plant can’t find people willing to work yet CNN says that labor market sky is falling. Well where are all the legals applying for the job? The same thing is happening in farming communities???

How did we ever manage to survive to this point, without illegal aliens is beyond me. All my realatives came here in 1909 legally and got us this far. Oh, and this:
usatoday.com/money/workplace/2008-09-09-child-labor_N.htm

Anyway, if we are going to talk about illegals the totality of the picture needs to be addressed not just the opinions.

And I have provided my data.

I have yet to meet a person that has lost their job to an illegal. I live in a city where an illegal can make as good a living as any legal and I have yet to see the case.

I work in construction in Chicago. I am off of work now. There are illegals working right now. DON"T YOU DARE TELL ME!

This thread is not where to post the solution because if you are going to complain about a problem you need to have a solution to the problem. Complaining is not a solution.

Sometimes, a solution is not something that makes everybody happy at one time. Boot out the ones who accept low paying jobs, and the wages will raise, not just the profits. As far as I am concerned, the solution has nothing to do with an illegal being granted anything, unless they play by the rules.

 

[redhen]

And in Quebec, the government will actually pay people to learn French. I think if I were younger, I’d move there but I got stuck living at the Alamo.

Another place I lived in for about 5 years. You want to talk about racism? Move to Québec! There has been a long history of anti-semitism in Québec. And the premier, Lucien Bouchard, is on record saying “white Quebec women were not having enough babies”
findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qn4158/is_/ai_n14015679

But the liberal press at the time gave him a pass, because Francophones are a minority. The separatist Québec govenment has long promoted immigration from former French colonies because they felt their language was threatened. It backfired though because they got lots of immigrants from countries like Haiti, hence Bouchard’s statement.

When the separatists lost the 1995 referendum, the party leader, Jacques Parizeau, blamed it “money, and the ethnic vote”. In other words, the Jews and non-whites.

 

[bookgirl32]

Doesn’t matter, it was all considered *terra incognita *

 

[bookgirl32]

But he is quoting from news releases and statements of American Bishops, Cardinals and the USCCB.

Let’s be realistic for a moment. The birth rates of Americans of European descent is in free fall (Mormons excepted). Latino birth rates in the U.S. continue to climb. This explains why more and more jobs in the Phoenix diocese, for example, require bilingualism (English/Spanish) for positions that involve catechism and youth ministry.

It’s simple demographics.

Could the European birthrate fall possibly have anything to do with the number of abortions, or the widely accepted us of artificial birth control used, in this country?

Someone’s personal blog is not an objective reference, period. If you’d like to find the statements or news releases by the USCCB and present them in their entire context, then I’ll read them.

 

[bookgirl32]

Good. You should.

:dancing:

 

[neat62]

bookgirl32;

There is a difference between how some people who have issues with the immigration problems of the US are presenting themselves on this board.

Sure they are, and it is out of frustration. They are becoming more and more angry because their leaders are favoring future votes from illegas, than to their existing constituancy.

Although we all have the responsibility to care for the poor, that does not mean we have to like the way our country is necessarily handling things.

Well yes and no. I will not loot in order to help the poor.

Although I would give this example, which was given to me by my priest and spiritual advisor:

Have you ever read Les Miserables by Victor Hugo? (Or seen the musical – not by Victor Hugo )? In it the lead character steals a loaf of bread b/c it is the one option immediately left to him at that time to feed himself and his family. In this SPECIFIC case, he has a right to the bread under natural / moral law placed by God and is not breaking the law by stealing it.

But this may not be the case. Not all options have been exhausted. For example: I have not seen a revolution in Mexico. They need to take responsibillity in their own back yard first, not walk into mine.

 

[neat62]

The Catholic charity on this thread is KILLING ME!

Truth be said there are solutions to this problem. First the problem can easily be fixed with a change in the law. As this is not a moral problem, nor and ethical problem it is simply a discriminatory problem. The law selects who can and cannot.

A discrimination (scholastic sense of the word (I hate being PC)) of resident vs. non-resident alien. If one takes it beyond that it quickly falls into the realm of hate.

Yes hate. Because the only thing that is driving this issue is does the person have the “right” to work in this country or not. I am sure a multi-millionaire illegal won’t bother much of those complaining on the board. Yes they do exist all you need to do is take a stroll down South Beach or Brickell avenue and you will find rich Brazilians and Colombians and Venezuelans overstaying their visas. They are as illegal as Pablo Pueblo.

So if we change the law to allow our dear southern brothers to work in our great country then there is no more problem because they are not illegal. Wow how simple. But wait there will be resistance because we need to protect American Jobs!! The reality is that the majority will be filling in a labor vacuum that people here refuse to take. It is also a myth that the laborers work for a fraction of minimum wage. If we give out permits to work we will collect all the taxes we need. It will also make the reward (paycheck) less of an accomplishment as it is now to work as an illegal in the US.

So when the “problem” is inspected at the root it is clearly a self created problem that has a truly easy fix.

But if the root when inspected is hate in your heart then a good examination of conscience is needed.

I can’t help but comment on the “American Culture” topic. Because the “American Culture” of the 40’s is not the one in 60’s and it sure isn’t the culture of today. So if your definition of American Culture is the English Language please just come out and say it. I agree that the national language for the US should be English just like the official language of the Church is Latin but I don’t agree that other languages should be subdued or blotted out of public use. The world is shrinking and it would be in the best interest of the US to begin to look at requiring a second language truly taught in schools (any of the top 5 other languages) just like our European brothers do. My 2 cents.

Charity is one thing, government and social policies are another.

 

[bookgirl32]

bookgirl32;

But this may not be the case. Not all options have been exhausted. For example: I have not seen a revolution in Mexico. They need to take responsibillity in their own back yard first, not walk into mine.

WHich is exactly my point. For an individual family, regardless of what the Mexican government has done, all options may have been exhausted. Of course laws cannot be built by looking at every single case, but mindsets can keep already exhisting views (like yours, and somewhat mine) with charity.

For example, I don’t believe that Spanish should be added as an official language of our country, but simply because I think, for practical reasons in a country where there are MANY different nationalities, a country should try to stick to one language.

What I don’t like to see is an entire ethnic group being characterized (and I’m not saying everyone here is) as “the problem”. This thread gets close to that in some cases.

 

[Maui71]

Charity is one thing, government and social policies are another.

The Catholic charity on this thread is KILLING ME!

Charity on this thread… Social policy was its own comment.

 

[bookgirl32]

Charity is one thing, government and social policies are another.

How are you “reading” charity? Maui is speaking in terms of the virtue charity, not giving money to the poor charity. So in terms of this virtue, yes, it has VERY MUCH to do with government and social politics, as it should have very much to do with all human action.

 

[redhen]

I’m assuming here you’re calling the then Native American populations barbarous? How do you define barbarous? Because they had yet to know God?

I’m just quoting Pope Alexander VI catholic-forum.com/saints/pope0214a.htm

If you’re saying that there cultural way of living was superior to that of the first American settlers, that’s just a matter of opinion.

Sure, if you subscribe to the “all cultures are the same” mantra.

Exactly HOW can you possibly prove that statement?

From the historical record and inference. Like many aboriginal cultures, they occupied some of the largest surface metal deposits on the planet for thousands of years, yet never developed metallurgy. Heck, they never even developed the wheel.