Another sola fide question

[bradwill911]

Is the act of faith that saves our souls an action or a work in and of itself? I guess I’m asking if faith can be passive with no action. I know certain churches do an altar call, which is an action, but even if you have that saving moment in the comfort of your own home, it seems that it would follow some kind of action, such as prayer. Isn’t this action a work?

I’m sure I’m misunderstanding something, but I’m having a hard time separating faith from good works because it seems that while Catholics state that the good works (which come from God) are required, sola fide folks claim that they are not required yet they will be present in true faith anyways. That seems to me to mean that true faith includes good works and if true faith is required for salvation, then good works would also be required. What am I missing here?

 

[bmw890]

Is the act of faith that saves our souls an action or a work in and of itself? I guess I’m asking if faith can be passive with no action. I know certain churches do an altar call, which is an action, but even if you have that saving moment in the comfort of your own home, it seems that it would follow some kind of action, such as prayer. Isn’t this action a work?

I’m sure I’m misunderstanding something, but I’m having a hard time separating faith from good works because it seems that while Catholics state that the good works (which come from God) are required, sola fide folks claim that they are not required yet they will be present in true faith anyways. That seems to me to mean that true faith includes good works and if true faith is required for salvation, then good works would also be required. What am I missing here?

I agree with your assessment and think it is a problem in Protestant thought. This is really what started leading me to question Sola Fide. I just can’t see how you can reconcile James with Sola Fide: 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. And of course their are a lot of verses in Romans and elsewhere that talk about faith, but you can’t pick and choose.

There is a good debate between Father Mitch Pacwa and Walter Martin on Youtube. It took place a while on the John Ankerberg show. The format wasn’t really fair to Pacwa as the moderator debated instead of letting Martin and Pacwa just debate, but it still is interesting.

On point that Pacwa makes with regards to your post is on the topic of justification. He asks, “You don’t have to say ‘yes’ to the grace?” Thereby making the point that is an action! The same is true when Protestants use the verse regarding Jesus’ death when He said, “It is finished.” They use this to complain about a lot of Catholic practices, but I don’t think they really think it through either. Even for them, it’s not finished. They still have to accept Christ, which is an action. The way they use it would mean that Christ’s death saved everyone right there and then, end of story. But it doesn’t work that way.

Hope that helps.

 

[Th0t]

There was an anecdote i heard one time it went something like this (not accurate but eh lol):

There was a nun at a time that lived in a nun convention, next to a Church. She would sometimes preach, sometimes give services, visit the sick and the poor and always attended mass. One day, the nun passed away in her bed. She was called to the presence of the Lord and noticed there were many fruit in front of her. The Lord came and would slice them in half, she noticed all the fruit were hollow in the middle. She asked the Lord, “Why are the fruit hollow my Lord?” Jesus said, “Because you never did anything for Me, you did everything so that you would look good in front of everyone.” ]

and they told us that we are to produce fruit as Jesus said. We can’t just have faith alone, faith brings charity as Pope Benedict XVI said recently on the topic of Sola Fide and how Luther was right. "By defining “faith” as “identification with Christ expressed in love for God and neighbor,” Pope Benedict.

 

[bradwill911]

Here’s how I see it described by my non-Catholic friends:

Catholic view: Faith + Good Works = Salvation

Protestant view: Faith + Good Works = True Faith = Salvation

OR

True Faith - Good Works = Not real faith = No salvation

Just trying to understand.

 

[JonNC]

Is the act of faith that saves our souls an action or a work in and of itself? I guess I’m asking if faith can be passive with no action. I know certain churches do an altar call, which is an action, but even if you have that saving moment in the comfort of your own home, it seems that it would follow some kind of action, such as prayer. Isn’t this action a work?

I’m sure I’m misunderstanding something, but I’m having a hard time separating faith from good works because it seems that while Catholics state that the good works (which come from God) are required, sola fide folks claim that they are not required yet they will be present in true faith anyways. That seems to me to mean that true faith includes good works and if true faith is required for salvation, then good works would also be required. What am I missing here?

You’re missing a couple of things. Justifying faith comes from Grace. It is a gift from God. So, in this sense, it is passive, in that we have not earned or merited justification. So, we would say that the unregenerate is so enslaved to sin, as to be incapable of coming to faith without God’s help. It has to be by Grace.

Now, to say that sola fide folks claim that they are not required to work is not entirely true.
The Formula of Concord says:

1. We believe, teach, and confess also that all men, but those especially who are born again and renewed by the Holy Ghost, are bound to do good works.

9] 4. In this sense the words necessary, shall, and must are employed correctly and in a Christian manner also with respect to the regenerate, and in no way are contrary to the form of sound words and speech.

10] 5. Nevertheless, by the words mentioned, necessitas, necessarium, necessity and necessary, if they be employed concerning the regenerate, not coercion, but only due obedience is to be understood, which the truly believing, so far as they are regenerate, render not from coercion or the driving of the Law, but from a voluntary spirit; because they are no more under the Law, but under grace, Rom. 6:14; 7:6; 8:14.

11] 6. Accordingly, we also believe, teach, and confess that when it is said: **The regenerate do good works from a free spirit, this is not to be understood as though it is at the option of the regenerate man to do or to forbear doing good when he wishes, and that he can nevertheless retain faith if he intentionally perseveres in sins. **

While we do good works from a free spirit, it is not optional that we do good works, because Christ commands that we do. So, neither can we claim good works for merit toward salvation, nor are we given the option to not do them.

Jon

 

[bradwill911]

You’re missing a couple of things. Justifying faith comes from Grace. It is a gift from God. So, in this sense, it is passive, in that we have not earned or merited justification. So, we would say that the unregenerate is so enslaved to sin, as to be incapable of coming to faith without God’s help. It has to be by Grace.

While we do good works from a free spirit, it is not optional that we do good works, because Christ commands that we do. So, neither can we claim good works for merit toward salvation, nor are we given the option to not do them.

Jon

I agree that it is a gift, but, like any gift, do we not have to accept it? I would think that we are free to accept or reject God’s merciful gift.

Peace,
Brad

 

[wardrandolph]

Hi Bradwill911.Scripture tells us faith without works is dead.Scripture also tell us devils believe.The problem with faith only is in the fact that people rely on their own interpretation of what faith is.Faith is Obedience.(CCC#144).Heb.11,known as the Faith chapter shows not only Belief,but action on these beliefs.Mary gave her consent,Her action meant faith.Faith is Grace.(CCC.#153.Faith is a human act.(CCC#154).Also CCC.#176-184.Read the Beatitudes(CCC.#1716,1717).Sacred Scripture,Sacred Tradition and our Lords example all compel us to good works. This has nothing to do with your post but I grew up in Omaha

 

[bradwill911]

Hi Bradwill911.Scripture tells us faith without works is dead.Scripture also tell us devils believe.The problem with faith only is in the fact that people rely on their own interpretation of what faith is.Faith is Obedience.(CCC#144).Heb.11,known as the Faith chapter shows not only Belief,but action on these beliefs.Mary gave her consent,Her action meant faith.Faith is Grace.(CCC.#153.Faith is a human act.(CCC#154).Also CCC.#176-184.Read the Beatitudes(CCC.#1716,1717).Sacred Scripture,Sacred Tradition and our Lords example all compel us to good works. This has nothing to do with your post but I grew up in Omaha

Hi,

I believe and agree with the Catholic doctrine, I’m just trying to understand how you can logically have faith without works or sola fide as some non-Catholics believe. It would seem that even sola fide believers also acknowledge the necessity of works, but don’t believe they are necessary. When I’ve had discussions about this with non-Catholics, I’ve actually been told, “Oh, you need the good works, otherwise you don’t have true faith, but they’re not necessary for salvation.” I’m hoping someone can explain how this makes sense at all.

I also grew up in Omaha. Left for 8 years, but I’m back.

 

[Seeking12]

Is the act of faith that saves our souls an action or a work in and of itself? I guess I’m asking if faith can be passive with no action. I know certain churches do an altar call, which is an action, but even if you have that saving moment in the comfort of your own home, it seems that it would follow some kind of action, such as prayer. Isn’t this action a work?

I’m sure I’m misunderstanding something, but I’m having a hard time separating faith from good works because it seems that while Catholics state that the good works (which come from God) are required, sola fide folks claim that they are not required yet they will be present in true faith anyways. That seems to me to mean that true faith includes good works and if true faith is required for salvation, then good works would also be required. What am I missing here?

**Romans 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness”

Good lesson for all of ye Catholics.**

 

[Seeking12]

Hi Bradwill911.Scripture tells us faith without works is dead.Scripture also tell us devils believe.The problem with faith only is in the fact that people rely on their own interpretation of what faith is.Faith is Obedience.(CCC#144).Heb.11,known as the Faith chapter shows not only Belief,but action on these beliefs.Mary gave her consent,Her action meant faith.Faith is Grace.(CCC.#153.Faith is a human act.(CCC#154).Also CCC.#176-184.Read the Beatitudes(CCC.#1716,1717).Sacred Scripture,Sacred Tradition and our Lords example all compel us to good works. This has nothing to do with your post but I grew up in Omaha

Faith is the assurance of things hoped for; in the Christian’s case the object of faith is Jesus.

 

[JonNC]

I agree that it is a gift, but, like any gift, do we not have to accept it? I would think that we are free to accept or reject God’s merciful gift.

Peace,
Brad

And His Peace to you, Brad.

Well, Lutherans might say we receive it, but certainly once regenerate we have free will to reject God’s gift. We reject His free gift through repeated and unrepented sin. We can and will lose our justifying faith if we persist in this way.

Jon

 

[Seeking12]

Hi,

I believe and agree with the Catholic doctrine, I’m just trying to understand how you can logically have faith without works or sola fide as some non-Catholics believe. It would seem that even sola fide believers also acknowledge the necessity of works, but don’t believe they are necessary. When I’ve had discussions about this with non-Catholics, I’ve actually been told, “Oh, you need the good works, otherwise you don’t have true faith, but they’re not necessary for salvation.” I’m hoping someone can explain how this makes sense at all.

I also grew up in Omaha. Left for 8 years, but I’m back.

**
Sola fide does not separated faith from works; but it is that justification is by faith and works are not the means of justification as you Catholics adhere to. You do not separated justification from santification and thus error in your understanding.**

 

[Seeking12]

And His Peace to you, Brad.

Well, Lutherans might say we receive it, but certainly once regenerate we have free will to reject God’s gift. We reject His free gift through repeated and unrepented sin. We can and will lose our justifying faith if we persist in this way.

Jon

**
You cannot reject God’s salvation; Romans 9:19 You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” (What is the answer? No one) Therefore; if you can reject it, then you prove you never had it. **

 

[bradwill911]

**Romans 4:5 “But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies the ungodly, his faith is credited as righteousness”

Good lesson for all of ye Catholics.**

Seeking12, you don’t have to quote Scripture to me since I can always quote it right back to you, James 2:24: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

I’m not asking for you to try to find “faith alone” somewhere in Scripture since the only place it occurs is in that verse from James (except, of course, if you use Luther’s translation where he added “alone” to Scripture).

What I’m asking is for someone to show me or describe for me faith alone. Since true faith requires works, according to the non-Catholics I’ve encountered, it would seem that works are required. Can you have true, saving faith without works? In other words, “Show me your faith apart from your works.”

 

[Seeking12]

I agree with your assessment and think it is a problem in Protestant thought. This is really what started leading me to question Sola Fide. I just can’t see how you can reconcile James with Sola Fide: 24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. And of course their are a lot of verses in Romans and elsewhere that talk about faith, but you can’t pick and choose.

There is a good debate between Father Mitch Pacwa and Walter Martin on Youtube. It took place a while on the John Ankerberg show. The format wasn’t really fair to Pacwa as the moderator debated instead of letting Martin and Pacwa just debate, but it still is interesting.

On point that Pacwa makes with regards to your post is on the topic of justification. He asks, “You don’t have to say ‘yes’ to the grace?” Thereby making the point that is an action! The same is true when Protestants use the verse regarding Jesus’ death when He said, “It is finished.” They use this to complain about a lot of Catholic practices, but I don’t think they really think it through either. Even for them, it’s not finished. They still have to accept Christ, which is an action. The way they use it would mean that Christ’s death saved everyone right there and then, end of story. But it doesn’t work that way.

Hope that helps.

Since you cannot see one’s faith; but you can see someones life…the way a person acts, thinks and talks…by this a man can see anothers good works and the life shows the proclaimed faith. God knows the heart and therefore does not need to see good works, that is why James makes the argument that you say you have faith but no works, I will show you my faith by my works…it isn’t very complicated.

 

[bradwill911]

Seeking12,

As someone who is “saved” by faith alone, can you still sin? Is a sin a sin no matter what or are there degrees of sin (venial vs mortal for us Catholics)? If you sin, are you still saved? Do you have to ask for forgiveness for your sins or are you saved regardless?

Thanks,

Brad

 

[Seeking12]

Seeking12, you don’t have to quote Scripture to me since I can always quote it right back to you, James 2:24: “You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.”

I’m not asking for you to try to find “faith alone” somewhere in Scripture since the only place it occurs is in that verse from James (except, of course, if you use Luther’s translation where he added “alone” to Scripture).

What I’m asking is for someone to show me or describe for me faith alone. Since true faith requires works, according to the non-Catholics I’ve encountered, it would seem that works are required. Can you have true, saving faith without works? In other words, “Show me your faith apart from your works.”

**That verse in James is exactly the point of James; you cannot see a mans faith, only God can…right? Does God need to see your works to believe you have faith in Him? No But if you profess to have said faith and you live a life of a heathen, then your faith is dead…but if you live a godly life before men then you back up your life with your profession and this is James entire point…so you must put Scripture in proper context or you will make an error like you just did. Good works are the RESULT, not the MEANS of saving faith…dah!

James 2:24 “you” what? “SEE”, like with your eye balls, what? “a man is justified” (in the sight of man or God? man. )**

 

[Seeking12]

Seeking12,

As someone who is “saved” by faith alone, can you still sin? Is a sin a sin no matter what or are there degrees of sin (venial vs mortal for us Catholics)? If you sin, are you still saved? Do you have to ask for forgiveness for your sins or are you saved regardless?

Thanks,

Brad

**As long as you are in a fallen flesh; everyone will sin. It is not a matter of asking for for forgiveness as much as you love and respect God as ones Father and will naturally want to ask for forgiveness; not because your afraid He won’t forgive, He already put His Son on the line and made His declaration; but we do it out of reverence and respect and love for He that has redeemed us.

i hope you are making progress; you worry me.**

 

[JonNC]

What I’m asking is for someone to show me or describe for me faith alone. Since true faith requires works, according to the non-Catholics I’ve encountered, it would seem that works are required. Can you have true, saving faith without works? In other words, “Show me your faith apart from your works.”

Brad,
I thought I did, but maybe I’m not explaining myself well.
The only thing capable of justifying us is the faith we receive as a gift because of Grace. We can claim no merit or boast any accomplishment that brings us justification. I can’t earn it. It is a gift.
But with justification comes sanctification, our growth in that grace. This is active faith where we choose to partake in the means of grace, word and sacrament, and show our love for our Lord by exercising love toward one another.

As the Joint Declaration on the Doctrine of Justification says:

The justified live by faith that comes from the Word of Christ (Rom 10:17) and is active through love (Gal 5:6), the fruit of the Spirit (Gal 5:22f). But since the justified are assailed from within and without by powers and desires (Rom 8:35-39; Gal 5:16-21) and fall into sin (1 Jn 1:8,10), they must constantly hear God’s promises anew, confess their sins (1 Jn 1:9), participate in Christ’s body and blood, and be exhorted to live righteously in accord with the will of God. That is why the Apostle says to the justified: “Work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; for it is God who is at work in you, enabling you both to will and to work for his good pleasure” (Phil 2:12f). But the good news remains: “there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus” (Rom 8:1), and in whom Christ lives (Gal 2:20). Christ’s “act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all” (Rom 5:18).

and

In faith we together hold the conviction that justification is the work of the triune God. The Father sent his Son into the world to save sinners. The foundation and presupposition of justification is the incarnation, death, and resurrection of Christ. Justification thus means that Christ himself is our righteousness, in which we share through the Holy Spirit in accord with the will of the Father. Together we confess: By grace alone, in faith in Christ’s saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.[11]

16.All people are called by God to salvation in Christ. Through Christ alone are we justified, when we receive this salvation in faith. Faith is itself God’s gift through the Holy Spirit who works through word and sacrament in the community of believers and who, at the same time, leads believers into that renewal of life which God will bring to completion in eternal life.

There is no denial of the importance of works in sola fide, there is only an understanding that our good works do not merit us justification. Justification comes by Grace alone through faith in Jesus Christ.
Jon

 

[Randy_Carson]

Is the act of faith that saves our souls an action or a work in and of itself? I guess I’m asking if faith can be passive with no action. I know certain churches do an altar call, which is an action, but even if you have that saving moment in the comfort of your own home, it seems that it would follow some kind of action, such as prayer. Isn’t this action a work?

I’m sure I’m misunderstanding something, but I’m having a hard time separating faith from good works because it seems that while Catholics state that the good works (which come from God) are required, sola fide folks claim that they are not required yet they will be present in true faith anyways. That seems to me to mean that true faith includes good works and if true faith is required for salvation, then good works would also be required. What am I missing here?

1. Was the work of our salvation “finished” with Jesus’ death on the cross? Yes or no?
2. Did Jesus’ death on the cross pay the price for all men’s sins? Yes or no?
3. If, “yes,” then that means that all men are redeemed, but not all men are saved. In other words, there are some who are redeemed and saved and some who are redeemed and unsaved. Is the difference between these two groups – the redeemed and saved and the redeemed and unsaved – something that Jesus did, or something that the saved did?

Courtesy John Martignoni