Another sola fide question

[bradwill911]

**That verse in James is exactly the point of James; you cannot see a mans faith, only God can…right? Does God need to see your works to believe you have faith in Him? No But if you profess to have said faith and you live a life of a heathen, then your faith is dead…but if you live a godly life before men then you back up your life with your profession and this is James entire point…so you must put Scripture in proper context or you will make an error like you just did. Good works are the RESULT, not the MEANS of saving faith…dah!

James 2:24 “you” what? “SEE”, like with your eye balls, what? “a man is justified” (in the sight of man or God? man. )**

I’m obviously not as intelligent or as knowledgeable about the Bible as you are, but it seems to me that you misunderstand Catholic teaching and your misunderstanding manifests itself in misrepresentation in most of your posts. While I disagree with your personal interpretation of things, I don’t want to misunderstand or misrepresent them.

You said that good works are the result of saving faith. To me, that means:
Saving faith = faith + good works

Without these good works then the person didn’t have real faith to begin with, right? In other words, Saving Faith - good works = not real faith

 

[bradwill911]

**As long as you are in a fallen flesh; everyone will sin. It is not a matter of asking for for forgiveness as much as you love and respect God as ones Father and will naturally want to ask for forgiveness; not because your afraid He won’t forgive, He already put His Son on the line and made His declaration; but we do it out of reverence and respect and love for He that has redeemed us.

i hope you are making progress; you worry me.**

I am humbled that you worry about me, thank you for the well wishes. So, everyone will sin, but we don’t need to ask for forgiveness. Would killing fall under this as well? It’s a sin and sin is sin and we all sin, so killing should fall under this definition. What about suicide? As someone who is saved and does not need to ask forgiveness, why would we want to keep living since dying would lead us straight to heaven? Sure, the suicide is a sin, but it is already forgiven since we are saved. I’m certain I am wrong, no need to worry more about me. Just hoping you can explain how this all works from your point of view.

 

[bradwill911]

Sorry, I believe you have stated your position quite well. My arguing is against those who, I believe, have a corrupted understanding of sola fide. Some non-Catholics still disagree with your understanding, it is to them that I am directing these remarks.

Straight from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. “Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.”

1990 Justification detaches man from sin…

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ…

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ…

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom…

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit…

If you want to read these in their entirety, click the link:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#1987

 

[Seeking12]

I’m obviously not as intelligent or as knowledgeable about the Bible as you are, but it seems to me that you misunderstand Catholic teaching and your misunderstanding manifests itself in misrepresentation in most of your posts. While I disagree with your personal interpretation of things, I don’t want to misunderstand or misrepresent them.

You said that good works are the result of saving faith. To me, that means:
Saving faith = faith + good works

Without these good works then the person didn’t have real faith to begin with, right? In other words, Saving Faith - good works = not real faith

**
I am concerned about what God teaches; aren’t you?
The formula is more like this if you want to use a formula : Saving Faith = justification before God; which the visible results to the world as a testimony to God will be Good Works, which God preordained before the foundation of the world that we would walk in them. Sorry, not much formulation here.**

 

[Seeking12]

Sorry, I believe you have stated your position quite well. My arguing is against those who, I believe, have a corrupted understanding of sola fide. Some non-Catholics still disagree with your understanding, it is to them that I am directing these remarks.

Straight from the Catechism of the Catholic Church:

1987 The grace of the Holy Spirit has the power to justify us, that is, to cleanse us from our sins and to communicate to us “the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ” and through Baptism:

But if we have died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him. For we know that Christ being raised from the dead will never die again; death no longer has dominion over him. The death he died he died to sin, once for all, but the life he lives he lives to God. So you also must consider yourselves dead to sin and alive to God in Christ Jesus.

1989 The first work of the grace of the Holy Spirit is conversion, effecting justification in accordance with Jesus’ proclamation at the beginning of the Gospel: “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” Moved by grace, man turns toward God and away from sin, thus accepting forgiveness and righteousness from on high. “Justification is not only the remission of sins, but also the sanctification and renewal of the interior man.”

1990 Justification detaches man from sin…

1991 Justification is at the same time the acceptance of God’s righteousness through faith in Jesus Christ…

1992 Justification has been merited for us by the Passion of Christ…

1993 Justification establishes cooperation between God’s grace and man’s freedom…

1994 Justification is the most excellent work of God’s love made manifest in Christ Jesus and granted by the Holy Spirit…

If you want to read these in their entirety, click the link:

scborromeo.org/ccc/p3s1c3a2.htm#1987

The Catholic Church blends justification with sanctification, the Bible separates the two; this is the problem in our communications.

 

[bradwill911]

**
I am concerned about what God teaches; aren’t you?
The formula is more like this if you want to use a formula : Saving Faith = justification before God; which the visible results to the world as a testimony to God will be Good Works, which God preordained before the foundation of the world that we would walk in them. Sorry, not much formulation here.**

If I wasn’t, do you really think I would be posting here? Thank you for honestly saying that you need the type of faith that visibly results in good works.:clapping:

 

[Seeking12]

I am humbled that you worry about me, thank you for the well wishes. So, everyone will sin, but we don’t need to ask for forgiveness. Would killing fall under this as well? It’s a sin and sin is sin and we all sin, so killing should fall under this definition. What about suicide? As someone who is saved and does not need to ask forgiveness, why would we want to keep living since dying would lead us straight to heaven? Sure, the suicide is a sin, but it is already forgiven since we are saved. I’m certain I am wrong, no need to worry more about me. Just hoping you can explain how this all works from your point of view.

Have you ever offended a friend; like a best friend, then apologized, already knowing that friend has forgiven you…why did you apologize? Probably out of love and respect for the person…same thing. You have to remember; it is the Spirit of God that directs the believer; if someone told me they were a believer, but never asked for forgiveness when then offended their Father, I would conclude something is very wrong with this person.

 

[Seeking12]

If I wasn’t, do you really think I would be posting here? Thank you for honestly saying that you need the type of faith that visibly results in good works.:clapping:

Don’t get me confused with your belief; good works are the result, not the means of saving faith.

 

[bradwill911]

Have you ever offended a friend; like a best friend, then apologized, already knowing that friend has forgiven you…why did you apologize? Probably out of love and respect for the person…same thing. You have to remember; it is the Spirit of God that directs the believer; if someone told me they were a believer, but never asked for forgiveness when then offended their Father, I would conclude something is very wrong with this person.

I agree that God doesn’t need the apology, but I think we need to apologize to God. When Jesus taught us how to pray, he said, “And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.” I would think that it would be more than wise to follow Christ’s instructions. That being said, does God forgive the believer who commits suicide?

 

[bradwill911]

Don’t get me confused with your belief; good works are the result, not the means of saving faith.

You think Catholics believe that good works leads to faith and not the other way around? That we can have good works without faith? Please tell me you’re not one of those people who believes that Catholics believe we can work our way into heaven.

Either way, you have said that good works are necessary since they are the result of saving faith. In other words, if the saving faith produces no good works, it is not saving faith. Any way you try to dissect that, the good works are necessary.

 

[Seeking12]

I agree that God doesn’t need the apology, but I think we need to apologize to God. When Jesus taught us how to pray, he said, “And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us.” I would think that it would be more than wise to follow Christ’s instructions. That being said, does God forgive the believer who commits suicide?

**
First, are you having these thoughts? Be honest and send me a PM if you need to.

Second; if a person was truly saved, then that person would be in heaven; but I might question the sincerity of a person that would commit suicide. The real issue is are they truly saved; if so, then they cannot loose God’s promise.**

 

[bradwill911]

I’m currently re-reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis and here is his take:

Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary. A serious moral effort is the only thing that will bring you to the point where you throw up the sponge. Faith in Christ is the only thing to save you from despair at that point: and out of that Faith in Him good actions must inevitably come. There are two parodies of the truth which different sets of Christians have, in the past, been accused by other Christians of believing: perhaps they may make the truth clearer. One set were accused of saying, “Good actions are all that matters. The best good action is charity. The best kind of charity is giving money. The best thing to give money to is the Church. So hand us over $10,000 and we will see you through.” The answer to that nonsense, of course, would be that good actions done for that motive, done with the idea that Heaven can be bought, would not be good actions at all, but only commercial speculations. The other set were accused of saying, “Faith is all that matters. Consequently, if you have faith, it doesn’t matter what you do. Sin away, my lad, and have a good time and Christ will see that it makes no difference in the end.” The answer to that nonsense is that, if what you call your “faith” in Christ does not involve taking the slightest notice of what He says, then it is not Faith at all–not faith or trust in Him, but only intellectual acceptance of some theory about Him.

The Bible really seems to clinch the matter when it puts the two things together into one amazing sentence. The first half is, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”–which looks as if everything depended on us and our good actions: but the second half goes on, “For it is God who worketh in you”–which looks as if God did everything and we nothing. I am afraid that is the sort of thing we come up against in Christianity. I am puzzled, but I am not surprised. You see, we are now trying to understand, and to separate into water-tight compartments, what exactly God does and what man does when God and man are working together. And, of course, we begin by thinking it is like two men working together, so that you could say, “He did this bit and I did that.” But this way of thinking breaks down. God is not like that. He is inside you as well as outside: even if we could understand who did what, I do not think human language could properly express it. In the attempt to express it different Churches say different things. But you will find that even those who insist most strongly on the importance of good actions tell you you need Faith; and even those who insist most strongly on Faith tell you to do good actions. At any rate that is as far as I can go.

 

[bradwill911]

**
First, are you having these thoughts? Be honest and send me a PM if you need to.

Second; if a person was truly saved, then that person would be in heaven; but I might question the sincerity of a person that would commit suicide. The real issue is are they truly saved; if so, then they cannot loose God’s promise.**

No, I’m not, but I give you a genuine thank you for your concern. It is just a hypothetical. What I wonder is why, when people are convinced that they are saved, do they no commit suicide so they can be in heaven. I’m not suggesting that they should and I pray that no one believes that they should. However, it seems that people would want to be with God NOW and if they believed what they are preaching about being saved, the quickest way there would be to end life now.

 

[JonNC]

1. Was the work of our salvation “finished” with Jesus’ death on the cross? Yes or no?
2. Did Jesus’ death on the cross pay the price for all men’s sins? Yes or no?
3. If, “yes,” then that means that all men are redeemed, but not all men are saved. In other words, there are some who are redeemed and saved and some who are redeemed and unsaved. Is the difference between these two groups – the redeemed and saved and the redeemed and unsaved – something that Jesus did, or something that the saved did?

Courtesy John Martignoni

Randy,
I would say, initially for sure, the Holy Spirit, through Baptism and the hearing of the word. At some point, we must receive in a responsible way the gift of faith, there is no doubt. And more, we must build on that justifying faith through our sanctification.

Jon

 

[Seeking12]

I’m currently re-reading Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis and here is his take:

Christians have often disputed as to whether what leads the Christian home is good actions, or Faith in Christ. I have no right really to speak on such a difficult question, but it does seem to me like asking which blade in a pair of scissors is most necessary. A serious moral effort is the only thing that will bring you to the point where you throw up the sponge. Faith in Christ is the only thing to save you from despair at that point: and out of that Faith in Him good actions must inevitably come. There are two parodies of the truth which different sets of Christians have, in the past, been accused by other Christians of believing: perhaps they may make the truth clearer. One set were accused of saying, “Good actions are all that matters. The best good action is charity. The best kind of charity is giving money. The best thing to give money to is the Church. So hand us over $10,000 and we will see you through.” The answer to that nonsense, of course, would be that good actions done for that motive, done with the idea that Heaven can be bought, would not be good actions at all, but only commercial speculations. The other set were accused of saying, “Faith is all that matters. Consequently, if you have faith, it doesn’t matter what you do. Sin away, my lad, and have a good time and Christ will see that it makes no difference in the end.” The answer to that nonsense is that, if what you call your “faith” in Christ does not involve taking the slightest notice of what He says, then it is not Faith at all–not faith or trust in Him, but only intellectual acceptance of some theory about Him.

The Bible really seems to clinch the matter when it puts the two things together into one amazing sentence. The first half is, “Work out your salvation with fear and trembling”–which looks as if everything depended on us and our good actions: but the second half goes on, “For it is God who worketh in you”–which looks as if God did everything and we nothing. I am afraid that is the sort of thing we come up against in Christianity. I am puzzled, but I am not surprised. You see, we are now trying to understand, and to separate into water-tight compartments, what exactly God does and what man does when God and man are working together. And, of course, we begin by thinking it is like two men working together, so that you could say, “He did this bit and I did that.” But this way of thinking breaks down. God is not like that. He is inside you as well as outside: even if we could understand who did what, I do not think human language could properly express it. In the attempt to express it different Churches say different things. But you will find that even those who insist most strongly on the importance of good actions tell you you need Faith; and even those who insist most strongly on Faith tell you to do good actions. At any rate that is as far as I can go.

**
Paul is speaking of the sanctification process; not justification. You must look at two things, the context in which Paul made the statement and in light of what Scripture teaches; otherwise Pauls’s statement would contradict other parts of Scipture and we know that is not possible.**

 

[bradwill911]

Jon,

As a Lutheran, what do you specifically disagree with in the RCC?

Also, can you help me understand the different “types” of Lutheranism (Missouri Synod, etc) and let me know which one you are a part of.

In Christ,

Brad

 

[Seeking12]

1. Was the work of our salvation “finished” with Jesus’ death on the cross? Yes or no?
2. Did Jesus’ death on the cross pay the price for all men’s sins? Yes or no?
3. If, “yes,” then that means that all men are redeemed, but not all men are saved. In other words, there are some who are redeemed and saved and some who are redeemed and unsaved. Is the difference between these two groups – the redeemed and saved and the redeemed and unsaved – something that Jesus did, or something that the saved did?

Courtesy John Martignoni

**The redeemed are the saved, why are you making a distinction and if you are, can you show me from Scripture? thanks.

Jesus atonement for sin was enough to cover all men that are saved; if they covered those not saved, then they would be saved; but since they are not, then they are not covered.**

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy,
I would say, initially for sure, the Holy Spirit, through Baptism and the hearing of the word. At some point, we must receive in a responsible way the gift of faith, there is no doubt. And more, we must build on that justifying faith through our sanctification.

Jon

Just curious…is baptism necessary for salvation?

 

[Crumpy]

**
Sola fide does not separated faith from works; but it is that justification is by faith and works are not the means of justification as you Catholics adhere to. You do not separated justification from santification and thus error in your understanding.**

I think this whole controversy is simply a polemical one between evangelicals and Catholics. The position of the Catholic Church is clear.

We were made to serve God and each other and that is how we will be measured in the final judgment.

I’ve been reading various Jewish books on Judaism, and they understand clearly that the OT emphasizes living a good life in our families and with our “neighbors.” Forget the technical language. If we don’t live a life of sacrifice following Christ, for the benefit of our family and others then we aren’t living the Catholic / Christian message. This was settled in OT times, and Martin Luther stirred things, just to be anti-Catholic.

The only verse in the NT about “faith alone” says that we’re NOT save by faith alone. What doesn’t anybody understand about that?

The Jews say that we show our love for God by showing love for our neighbor. You shouldn’t and can’t faithfully pull one idea out of scripture to the abandonment of everything else that is there.

No matter what St. Paul says, Jesus told his disciples to teach all nations to OBEY all his commandments. I don’t think anyone can obey all Jesus’ commandments with faith alone, without good works. We’re going to be judged on how we lived our lives. We won’t be given an essay exam on what we believed.

 

[Seeking12]

No, I’m not, but I give you a genuine thank you for your concern. It is just a hypothetical. What I wonder is why, when people are convinced that they are saved, do they no commit suicide so they can be in heaven. I’m not suggesting that they should and I pray that no one believes that they should. However, it seems that people would want to be with God NOW and if they believed what they are preaching about being saved, the quickest way there would be to end life now.

As much as i want to be in heaven; I’ll wait for God’s timing and have no desire to get there by any other means. Besides, there are rewards in heaven that you can earn while on earth. I want to hear “good and faithful servant”.