Another thought about Mary's sinlessness

[VociMike]

This thought came to me recently and I’ve never heard it expressed before (maybe I don’t get around enough ). We know that our sinfulness brought about Christ’s death. If Mary had been sinful, then the woman who gave life to Christ would also have been responsible for killing Him (murdering Him, in fact). This strikes me, vaguely, as very wrong. It strikes me as much more fitting that the human who gave life to Jesus would have been given the grace to avoid being responsible for His murder. FWIW…

 

[turboEDvo]

That’s an interesting thought. Just one more reason that Mary can’t be tainted by sin, I suppose. I want to research this a bit more when I get home. I will post again.

Eamon

 

[tuopaolo]

Wow. I had never thought of that. If no one has thought or written about this before, maybe you should be made a Doctor of the Church

 

[Della]

VociMike:

This thought came to me recently and I’ve never heard it expressed before (maybe I don’t get around enough ). We know that our sinfulness brought about Christ’s death. If Mary had been sinful, then the woman who gave life to Christ would also have been responsible for killing Him (murdering Him, in fact). This strikes me, vaguely, as very wrong. It strikes me as much more fitting that the human who gave life to Jesus would have been given the grace to avoid being responsible for His murder. FWIW…

What an interesting way of seeing Mary’s role in redemption. Of course, Christ’s death on the cross was her redemption too, just like ours, so I don’t think you could strictly say she could have had no part in his death. If that were so, wouldn’t it mean that she had no need of a Savior? I don’t think you are trying to say that. Perhaps this needs a bit more thought?

 

[VociMike]

Della:

What an interesting way of seeing Mary’s role in redemption. Of course, Christ’s death on the cross was her redemption too, just like ours, so I don’t think you could strictly say she could have had no part in his death. If that were so, wouldn’t it mean that she had no need of a Savior? I don’t think you are trying to say that. Perhaps this needs a bit more thought?

I’m not claiming that Mary didn’t benefit from Christ’s death, just that she bore no responsibility for it (unlike the rest of us).

 

[Della]

VociMike:

I’m not claiming that Mary didn’t benefit from Christ’s death, just that she bore no responsibility for it (unlike the rest of us).

I believe you are right. If I get a flash of genius (very unlikely ) that shows me how you might be wrong I’ll be sure to let you know. But, I can’t see anything wrong with your proposition as you stated it here. It’s a lovely thought, if true!

 

[jimmy]

Della:

What an interesting way of seeing Mary’s role in redemption. Of course, Christ’s death on the cross was her redemption too, just like ours, so I don’t think you could strictly say she could have had no part in his death. If that were so, wouldn’t it mean that she had no need of a Savior? I don’t think you are trying to say that. Perhaps this needs a bit more thought?

He is correct, although Mary recieved grace from the passion of Christ, she did not cause the passion. Only sin causes the passion. She did recieve help from the passion though.

 

[PhilNeri]

That **is **a cool thought. It makes sense to me.

 

[oudave]

VociMike:

This thought came to me recently and I’ve never heard it expressed before (maybe I don’t get around enough ). We know that our sinfulness brought about Christ’s death. If Mary had been sinful, then the woman who gave life to Christ would also have been responsible for killing Him (murdering Him, in fact). This strikes me, vaguely, as very wrong. It strikes me as much more fitting that the human who gave life to Jesus would have been given the grace to avoid being responsible for His murder. FWIW…

Hi
I see two problems here. First it was not Mary who gave life to Christ. God and God only gives life to all.
Second, scripture clearly says that all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. Jesus is God, so Jesus is not included in ‘‘all’’.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

 

[tuopaolo]

You just had to ruin a good thread with your attacks on Mary, didn’t you?

 

[jimmy]

oudave:

Hi
I see two problems here. First it was not Mary who gave life to Christ. God and God only gives life to all.
Second, scripture clearly says that all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. Jesus is God, so Jesus is not included in ‘‘all’’.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

You are ruining the thread.

Your arguements are very bad. First, it does not say Christ is excluded from “all”, so your interpretation is extrabiblical and a doctrine of men. You are espousing docrines of men. Christ warned against your type of doctrines. Your other point is pointless.

 

[Church_Militant]

oudave:

Hi
I see two problems here. First it was not Mary who gave life to Christ. God and God only gives life to all.
Second, scripture clearly says that all have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. Jesus is God, so Jesus is not included in ‘‘all’’.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

You just don’t learn do ya Dave? You have no clue what you’re talking about though you think you do.You will post negative (name removed by moderator)ut just to make yourself feel good. We all know your opinions…you made 'em abundantly clear long ago. It changed nothing then and won’t change anything now.

 

[oudave]

tuopaolo:

You just had to ruin a good thread with your attacks on Mary, didn’t you?

Hi
I am not attacking Mary, just stateing a fact. Mary was an incredibly wonderful woman and was the most holy woman to ever live. Just because she wasn’t sinnless doesn’t mean I’m attacking her. I have a great love and respect for Mary. Mary was a vessel that God used to bear Christ because, as it says in Luke, for you have found favor with God. Just because someone has a different opinion than yours doesnt mean they are attacking. I respect your opinion, I just don’t agree with it.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

 

[Fashina86]

oudave:

Hi
I am not attacking Mary, just stateing a fact. Mary was an incredibly wonderful woman and was the most holy woman to ever live. Just because she wasn’t sinnless doesn’t mean I’m attacking her. I have a great love and respect for Mary. Mary was a vessel that God used to bear Christ because, as it says in Luke, for you have found favor with God. Just because someone has a different opinion than yours doesnt mean they are attacking. I respect your opinion, I just don’t agree with it.
In Him and Him Only, Dave.

But, how could she have not been sinnless? She was born w/o original sin! She had the sanctifying grace that we don’t yet possess. Also, she had to basically be perfect (not God, but very close) to be able to bear His SON!!! She was the Immaculate Concepiton, and therefore wasn’t tempted in the same ways… Face it, she was just an amazing person–The MOTHER OF GOD!

God Bless–JMJ
Laura

 

[Church_Militant]

Dave,
You just don’t see how anyone can cooperate with God’s grace and so actually do what God has called us to. You do agree that He has called us all to sinlessness as christians don’t you?

 

[oudave]

Fashina86:

But, how could she have not been sinnless? She was born w/o original sin! She had the sanctifying grace that we don’t yet possess. Also, she had to basically be perfect (not God, but very close) to be able to bear His SON!!! She was the Immaculate Concepiton, and therefore wasn’t tempted in the same ways… Face it, she was just an amazing person–The MOTHER OF GOD!

God Bless–JMJ
Laura

Hi
I have a question, I have never read anything that says that Mary was born without original sin, as a matter of fact I didnt know anyone was born being a sinner. Where do you get this from? I would like to read it.
In Him and Only Him, Dave.

 

[Della]

oudave:

Hi
I have a question, I have never read anything that says that Mary was born without original sin, as a matter of fact I didnt know anyone was born being a sinner. Where do you get this from? I would like to read it.
In Him and Only Him, Dave.

If no one is born a sinner why do you have a problem with Catholic claims that Mary was born without sin?

 

[VociMike]

oudave:

Hi
I have a question, I have never read anything that says that Mary was born without original sin, as a matter of fact I didnt know anyone was born being a sinner. Where do you get this from? I would like to read it.
In Him and Only Him, Dave.

In that case, why do you quote “all have sinned” as proof of Mary’s sinfulness? Apparently you believe very many have not sinned.

 

[VociMike]

oudave:

Hi
I see two problems here. First it was not Mary who gave life to Christ. God and God only gives life to all.

Surely you understand that biological parents cooperate with God in giving life. God gives life, but He gives it through the biological parents. As stated in scripture, “a virgin shall conceive and bear a son…” It’s just one more aspect of the way in which God works through and with His creation.

Or is your position that Mary in no way cooperated with God in giving life to Jesus (however you might choose to understand “giving life”)?

 

[oudave]

Della:

If no one is born a sinner why do you have a problem with Catholic claims that Mary was born without sin?

Hi
If you go back and read my post’s you will find that I have never said that Mary was born a sinner, I have said that Mary like the rest of us did not remain sinnless. She may have only sinned once, but we know through scripture that Christ was the only one. Rom 3:23 says ALL have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. Please go back and ream my post #13 in this thread, also please understand I am NOT bashing Mary. I understand she was the mother of Christ, but Jesus is the only perfect and spotless sacrifice. I know that my Mom has sinned, it doesn’t mean that I am bashing her like so many claim I am doing to Mary. If Mary were sinnless she could have also been our savior, but we know of course that Christ is our only savior.
In Him and Him only, Dave. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif