Another thought about Mary's sinlessness

[VociMike]

oudave, when you claim a sinless Mary could have been our savior, wouldn’t your logic apply to every sinless infant as well?

Also, how is it that every single infant ever born manages to not be included in Romans 3:23? Considering how many children have died throughout history, it seems like “all” means even fewer in your view than you think it means in the Catholic view.

 

[Della]

oudave:

Hi
If you go back and read my post’s you will find that I have never said that Mary was born a sinner, I have said that Mary like the rest of us did not remain sinnless. She may have only sinned once, but we know through scripture that Christ was the only one. Rom 3:23 says ALL have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. Please go back and ream my post #13 in this thread, also please understand I am NOT bashing Mary. I understand she was the mother of Christ, but Jesus is the only perfect and spotless sacrifice. I know that my Mom has sinned, it doesn’t mean that I am bashing her like so many claim I am doing to Mary. If Mary were sinnless she could have also been our savior, but we know of course that Christ is our only savior.
In Him and Him only, Dave. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

Four things here: Firstly, the all in Romans is not referring empirically to every human being–it refers back to the statement that Jew and Gentile alike are sinners, and that’s all it means. When people take verses out of context in order to make them mean what they want them to mean we get these sorts of misunderstandings.

Secondly, there is no evidence in Scripture that Mary ever sinned, even once. Please show us where it does.

Thirdly, we should honor our mothers, of course, but your mother and my mother are not The Mother of God (referring strictly to her being the theotokos, the God-bearer). Mary was not just a good woman who happened to be chosen, she was The Chosen from all eternity to be the Mother of the Incarnate Son of God. Meditate on that great truth for a while and see if it doesn’t broadened your understanding of Mary’s place in salvation history.

And fourthly, the only interpretation of Scripture that can be absolutely trusted is that of the Church Christ founded. The only Church he founded was the Catholic Church which gave the Bible to the world in the first place. It is God’s word given to his prophets and apostles who then passed it down to us within the Church from which it came. To look at it in any other way is to completely miss its meaning and so make gross mistakes in theology.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Della:

Secondly, there is no evidence in Scripture that Mary ever sinned, even once. Please show us where it does.======================================================== Hi Della, Scripture does say that ALL have sinned. If one has no sin then they are perfect[good]. But Jesus says there is only one who is good and that is His Father in Heaven. Also one who is perfect doesnt require a Savior,BUT even Mary confessed she needed a Savior. Jesus is the payment for sin. God Bless

 

[Mickey]

With God, all things are possible. Just as Jesus healed the sick and raised Lazarus from the dead…just as Jesus turned water into wine…just as Jesus Himself rose from the dead and ascended into heaven…just as the apsotles performed wonders…just as a the Holy Spirit descended upon a virgin to give birth to the Savior…

Sacred Tradition tells us that the Ever-Virgin Mary, the Mother of our Lord, was born and remained sinless.

Did a sinner give birth to our Savior?

Nope!

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Mickey:

With God, all things are possible. Just as Jesus healed the sick and raised Lazarus from the dead…just as Jesus turned water into wine…just as Jesus Himself rose from the dead and ascended into heaven…just as the apsotles performed wonders…just as a the Holy Spirit descended upon a virgin to give birth to the Savior…

Sacred Tradition tells us that the Ever-Virgin Mary, the Mother of our Lord, was born and remained sinless.

Did a sinner give birth to our Savior?

Nope!

Hi Mickey, Mary was an Honored vessel the Lord used to bring God in the Flesh…Jesus existed from the very beginning. Can God be born if He is the creator? God Bless

 

[kayla]

Okay Dave…lets just look at it like this

Would God choose a sinfull vessel to bear his only son our Lord??

 

[Mickey]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Mickey, Mary was an Honored vessel the Lord used to bring God in the Flesh…Jesus existed from the very beginning. Can God be born if He is the creator? God Bless

The Word (Logos) always existed. The Word became flesh. Jesus is God the Son (the Word made flesh)–the second person of the Holy Trinity. Jesus and the Father and the Holy Spirit are one. Is Jesus God? Yes. Was He born of The Holy Spirit and Ever-Virgin Mary? Yes. Was He fully Divine and Fully Human? Yes. Were these two natures inseparable? (hypostatic union). Yes. Was Mary the Mother of God? Yes.

Quite simple SW! I hope that helps you.

Rejoice! The Mother of God

 

[VociMike]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Mickey, Mary was an Honored vessel the Lord used to bring God in the Flesh…Jesus existed from the very beginning. Can God be born if He is the creator? God Bless

A vessel does not impart any of itself to its contents. Do biological parents impart nothing of themselves to their offspring? Of course, we know that’s not the case. Also, if Mary did not impart any of herself to Jesus, He would not be descended from the line of David, any more than water carried in a glass vessel is derived from glass.

 

[VociMike]

kayla:

Okay Dave…lets just look at it like this

Would God choose a sinfull vessel to bear his only son our Lord??

To ask it another way, would God choose a sinful human to be the source of Christ’s humanity? Or would God choose that, just as Christ’s heavenly father was perfect, so should Christ’s earthly mother be perfect. Would a father do any less for his only son, one who obeyed him even unto death?

 

[Della]

SPOKENWORD:

Della:

Secondly, there is no evidence in Scripture that Mary ever sinned, even once. Please show us where it does.======================================================== Hi Della, Scripture does say that ALL have sinned. If one has no sin then they are perfect[good]. But Jesus says there is only one who is good and that is His Father in Heaven. Also one who is perfect doesnt require a Savior,BUT even Mary confessed she needed a Savior. Jesus is the payment for sin. God Bless

See my post above where I explained what “all” means in the Romans citation.

As I’m sure you must be aware, there are two ways a person can be saved from something:

1. He can be saved after the event has happened, such as a person who falls into a river can be saved.
2. He can be saved by being kept from having the event happen, such as person being caught before he falls into a river.

Mary was saved in the second way–before she herself could have sinned. This was done only through the death of her Son, whose redemption saved the people of the OT who were looking forward to their redemption, you’ll recall.

God was and is able to save anyone at any time as he pleases, and it pleased him to do so in Mary’s case because she was to be the Mother of the Incarnate Son of God.

Are you declaring that God couldn’t/wouldn’t have done so? I’d like to hear your reasons for thinking that, if you are.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Della:

SPOKENWORD:

See my post above where I explained what “all” means in the Romans citation.

As I’m sure you must be aware, there are two ways a person can be saved from something:

1. He can be saved after the event has happened, such as a person who falls into a river can be saved.
2. He can be saved by being kept from having the event happen, such as person being caught before he falls into a river.

Mary was saved in the second way–before she herself could have sinned. This was done only through the death of her Son, whose redemption saved the people of the OT who were looking forward to their redemption, you’ll recall.

God was and is able to save anyone at any time as he pleases, and it pleased him to do so in Mary’s case because she was to be the Mother of the Incarnate Son of God.

Are you declaring that God couldn’t/wouldn’t have done so? I’d like to hear your reasons for thinking that, if you are.

Does God go against His Word ? God Bless

 

[wcknight]

oudave:

Hi
If you go back and read my post’s you will find that I have never said that Mary was born a sinner, I have said that Mary like the rest of us did not remain sinnless. She may have only sinned once, but we know through scripture that Christ was the only one. Rom 3:23 says ALL have sinned and fall short of God’s glory. Please go back and ream my post #13 in this thread, also please understand I am NOT bashing Mary. I understand she was the mother of Christ, but Jesus is the only perfect and spotless sacrifice. I know that my Mom has sinned, it doesn’t mean that I am bashing her like so many claim I am doing to Mary. If Mary were sinnless she could have also been our savior, but we know of course that Christ is our only savior.
In Him and Him only, Dave. http://forums.catholic-questions.org/images/icons/icon7.gif

In all likelihood Mary did remain sinless, God made her to be perfect in every way, spotless from birth. She is superior to all of creation except God Himself. She is to rule over all creation, second only to Jesus.

A real interesting book is City of God, written by venerable Mary of Agreda, a spanish nun in the 1600’s. In it she describes God’s plan for Mary long before her birth. Before her birth the Trinity assigned 900 angels, 100 each from the 9 choirs of angels to watch over her. An additional 100 from the highest ranks were included for good measure. St.Michael the archangel was to be her special assistant. St Gabriel was assigned to be her direct messenger to the Almighty.

She is the Queen mum of Heaven. Her own mother St. Anne commented, “blessed are they who are the servant of her servants.” She was filled with the Holy Spirit from day one.

I seriously doubt Mary was included in the ALL have sinned category. God gave His mother all the graces and gifts possible to make His mother the most perfect creature ever. After Jesus birth, she retained all of these graces and gifts. Nothing was taken away because of Jesus’ birth. She remained as incorruptible as the day she was conceived.

Christ’s Peace wc

 

[mtr01]

SPOKENWORD:

Hi Mickey, Mary was an Honored vessel the Lord used to bring God in the Flesh…Jesus existed from the very beginning. Can God be born if He is the creator? God Bless

Hi Spoken,

Perhaps the words of St. Augustine might help you understand the Incarnation a little better. I posted them on another thread, but here are the links. I think they’ll be quite illuminating:

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=509545&postcount=228

and

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=509833&postcount=230

 

[Della]

SPOKENWORD:

Della:

Does God go against His Word ? God Bless

YOU are the one who thinks so if the word all means everyone without exception. Because it either means just what I wrote it does (in my post above) within the context of Romans or it means that everyone everywhere without any exceptions whatsoever has sinned. You can’t step in to claim an exception you’d like to read into the text if that is what it means. That is not only illogical it makes God’s word null and void.

 

[jimmy]

oudave:

Hi
I have a question, I have never read anything that says that Mary was born without original sin, as a matter of fact I didnt know anyone was born being a sinner. Where do you get this from? I would like to read it.
In Him and Only Him, Dave.

Dave, why have you ignored my point? I will repost it here.

Your arguements are very bad. First, it does not say Christ is excluded from “all”, so your interpretation is extrabiblical and a doctrine of men. You are espousing docrines of men. Christ warned against your type of doctrines. Your other point is pointless.

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Della:

SPOKENWORD:

YOU are the one who thinks so if the word all means everyone without exception. Because it either means just what I wrote it does (in my post above) within the context of Romans or it means that everyone everywhere without any exceptions whatsoever has sinned. You can’t step in to claim an exception you’d like to read into the text if that is what it means. That is not only illogical it makes God’s word null and void.

Della,All does mean no exceptions. Dont place God as an exception. God created All of us. There are no exceptions. Maybe I just dont get it. God Bless

 

[Malachi4U]

SPOKENWORD:

…Maybe I just dont get it. …

I’ll second that!

God bless,

 

[SPOKENWORD]

Malachi4U:

I’ll second that!

God bless,

Hi Malachi,thats two of us. God Bless

 

[Malachi4U]

SPOKENWORD:

…Can God be born if He is the creator? …

Let’s see what the NIV says in {St.} Lk 2:7 “7and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son.”

Jesus is God? Catholic answer yes (and most other Christians too)!

Jesus born of Blessed ever virgin Mary? Bible answer Yes!

Spoken 0, Bible 1

God bless,

 

[Lovez4God]

This is another reason why God is God, and you are you! I hope you understand more greatly on the Immaculate Conception of the Virgin Mary. A book I highly recommend “The Mystical City of God” by Venerable Mary of Agreda. God bless!