Another trick questions - Modern/Liberal Catholic views

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Roseeurekacross said:
Saxum, liberal means something different in my country, it is a conservative term
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I know that definition too. I also use it in political contexts. However, in Catholic contexts, the term “liberal” is an old word for “modernist.” See the book “Liberalism is a Sin” and JH Newman’s Biglietto Speech for examples.
 
“You’re basically asking everyone to draw a line in the sand.”

No, the OP is asking what people are referring to. It can be very hard to sort through conversations between old-timer Catholics when words like “conservative” and “liberal” get bandied about so, um, “liberally.”
 
As a practical matter they are similar because they both deny the authority of revealed truth, but they are different in many ways. Liberalism makes reason supreme and denies any obligation of faith, especially in the public or social sphere. Modernism outright denies that there is any objective revelation from God to man and makes religion not even subject to reason, but rather a mere internal impulse.
 
SuscipeMeDomine said:
Liberal and conservative are political terms, not religious. Politically someone who is anti-abortion is conservative and someone who is anti-capital punishment is liberal. But in both cases, the position is in line with Catholic values.
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This is off the mark somewhat.

It’s also a bad idea to get the notion that there’s an even moral break here.

There isn’t…
 
Moderate is a political term. It basically means being in the middle ground, not 100% inclined to either direction. When it comes to religion, I think in similar terms, don’t see it as black or white.
 
well, CAF is NOT “the Church”.
The Church has no such labels as Deacon Jeff so rightly pointed out. Same with SD.

we OLD CAF-ERS (thanks btw) tire easily.

😉
 
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Terrend said:
I tried searching this topic, haven’t found much.
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I know if you do a search for “modernism” you’ll get some hits. Probably noticeably more than a search for “liberalism” will yield.
 
Liberalism, in the definition I think your thinking, would be freedom of choice, the placement of conscience above rules. Catholics believe in submission to God in everything, and submission to His Vicar on earth in things that are in alignment with His holy will.

All Catholics are “conservative” Catholics if labels are placed on it.

If we’re going down the liberal/modernist (as often the word liberal is used here) road…that road leads to heresy. Not Catholic.
 
I don’t think we have much of a choice when it comes to submission to God. Submission to God is more inevitability than choice, one way or another. God and church are not totally one and the same thing. The church teaches us about God and his will, it teaches (supposed to anyway) us how to be good people, good spouses, parents, neighbours, but it is still run by humans and not all of the church’s rules and regulations were created by God. People who want to see some changes in the way the church is run are not trying to necessarily modernize God’s teachings (you really can’t do that anyway) but rather change the way the church relates them to the people of today. Some of these centuries old traditions that have little to nothing to do with God and faith are keeping the church from moving into the 21st century.
 
Usually, when we talk about liberal in a theological context, we refer to those who downplay or exclude the supernatural/inspired aspects of Christianity and Catholicism and privileging reason above authority and tradition. It has nothing to do with political liberalism or economic leftism.
 
There’s no such thing.

You’re either a faithful Catholic or a heretical “catholic,” or a lukewarm “catholic” or a lapsed Catholic.
 
To me, you sound like a troll making a typical leftist’s straw man of serious Catholics.
 
Saxum said:
The book “Liberalism is a Sin” is worth reading.
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Yes! And if I remember correctly, that book was written in 1896! What would Fr. Salvany think of today’s modern liberalism? Probably would require volumes 2, 3, 4, and 5.
 
This. I always figured its we believe on what catholicism teaches and not to have any other beliefs than of what catholicism allows. Either they are catholic or of another belief.
 
Liberal can be a useful descriptor. For one, nobody is going to call themselves heterodox. And some of the milder types are orthodox, just as we can refer to both the FSSP and a good chunk of schismatics as conservative.

And again, nothing to do with our modern politics. You can agitate for issues traditionally considered left and be quite theologically conservative.
 
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