Anselm of Canterbury's tract "That God truly exists"

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Can someone please help me work through this tract, by putting it into simple English? I don’t understand the logical syllogism.
Well then, Lord, You who give understanding to faith, grant me that I may understand, as much as You see fit, that You exist as we believe You to exist, and that You are what we believe You to be. Now we believe that You are something than which nothing greater can be thought. Or can it be that a thing of such a nature does not exist, since ‘the Fool has said in his heart, there is no God’ [Ps. xiii. I, lii. I]? But surely, when this same Fool hears what I am speaking about, namely, ‘something-than-which-nothing-greater-can-be-thought’, he understands what he hears, and what he understands is in his mind, even if he does not understand that it actually exists. For it is one thing for an object to exist in the mind, and another thing to understand that an object actually exists. Thus, when a painter plans beforehand what he is going to execute, he has [the picture] in his mind, but he does not yet think that it actually exists because he has not yet executed it. However, when he has actually painted it, then he both has it in his mind and understands that it exists because he has now made it. *Even the fool, then, is forced to agree that something-than-which-nothing-greater-can-be-thought exists in the mind, since he understands this when he hears it, and whatever is understood is in the mind. And surely that-than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought cannot exist in the mind alone. For if it exists solely in the mind even, it can be thought to exist in reality also, which is greater. If then that-than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought exists in the mind alone, this same that-than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought is that-than-which-a-greater-can-be-thought. But this is obviously impossible. Therefore there is absolutely no doubt that something-than-which-a-greater-cannot-be-thought exists both in the mind and in reality. *
This makes me think of Aquinas, who wrote, for example, that one characteristic of certain objects and beings is their “act of existence,” their “act of being,” which differentiates them from their conceptions mentally, their form and matter as can be described and understood, versus manifested. That distinction invalidates Anselm’s argument, I would think? I’m having a difficult time wrapping my mind around this.

Can anyone direct me to modern Catholic analysis of Anselm’s proofs? I haven’t successfully found anything online.
 
Can someone please help me work through this tract, by putting it into simple English? I don’t understand the logical syllogism.

This makes me think of Aquinas, who wrote, for example, that one characteristic of certain objects and beings is their “act of existence,” their “act of being,” which differentiates them from their conceptions mentally, their form and matter as can be described and understood, versus manifested. That distinction invalidates Anselm’s argument, I would think? I’m having a difficult time wrapping my mind around this.

Can anyone direct me to modern Catholic analysis of Anselm’s proofs? I haven’t successfully found anything online.
Anselm’s argument is traditionally known as the ontological argument. A search on the Internet should lead to many resources. A detailed breakdown of the argument can be found here:

princeton.edu/~grosen/puc/phi203/ontological.html

This is not a Catholic analysis but it is a fair one, I think.

The argument was not accepted by Aquinas and was dismissed soon after Anselm proposed it by a monk named Gaunilo who constructed the analogy of greatest possible island to show the argument to be invalid.

David Hume and Immanuel Kant offered refutations as well.

However the argument was given new life by philosophers Norman Malcolm and Alvin Plantinga. Plantinga offers a modal form that is difficult to refute.
 
The ontological argument is diminished by the fact that it seems incorrigibly circular. It never really gets off the ground. Imagine an atheist being asked to buy it. He would offer the same objection Gaunilon offered about the perfect island.

A better argument for the existence of God is that the universe more plausibly exists as a product of Design and Creation, than that it has always existed or that it just popped into existence for no apparent reason (the Big Bang).

Plausibility leans very much toward God rather than Nogod.

That perhaps explains why the universal sense of mankind has always been dominantly religious rather than atheistic.
 
Can someone please help me work through this tract, by putting it into simple English? I don’t understand the logical syllogism.

This makes me think of Aquinas, who wrote, for example, that one characteristic of certain objects and beings is their “act of existence,” their “act of being,” which differentiates them from their conceptions mentally, their form and matter as can be described and understood, versus manifested. That distinction invalidates Anselm’s argument, I would think? I’m having a difficult time wrapping my mind around this.

Can anyone direct me to modern Catholic analysis of Anselm’s proofs? I haven’t successfully found anything online.
Well, St. Thomas discusses Anselm’s argument in the beginning of the Summa Contra Gentiles in Chptrs 10 & 11 here: dhspriory.org/thomas/ContraGentiles1.htm#10

And in the Summa Theological in Part 1 here: newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm#article1

St. Thomas is modern in the sense that he is the perennial Philosopher widely studied even today.

👍
 
In question 1, reply to objection 2,
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm#article1
Aquinas rejects the ontological argument:
Reply to Objection 2. Perhaps not everyone who hears this word “God” understands it to signify something than which nothing greater can be thought, seeing that some have believed God to be a body. Yet, granted that everyone understands that by this word “God” is signified something than which nothing greater can be thought, nevertheless, it does not therefore follow that he understands that what the word signifies exists actually, but only that it exists mentally. Nor can it be argued that it actually exists, unless it be admitted that there actually exists something than which nothing greater can be thought; and this precisely is not admitted by those who hold that God does not exist.
** **
In other words, although it sounds logical, it’s not a proof. The argument contains nothing that we can see, feel, taste, smell or otherwise sense, and therefore doesn‘t lead to a conclusion.

In contrast, Aquinas’s proof of God’s existence from the necessity of a first mover is based on our direct knowledge of the universe.
 
In other words, although it sounds logical, it’s not a proof. The argument contains nothing that we can see, feel, taste, smell or otherwise sense, and therefore doesn‘t lead to a conclusion.
I am not clear that this is a requirement for an argument to be valid. There are at least two kinds of logical arguments inductive and deductive. Inductive arguments rely on our observations of the world and generalizations made from them. Some would argue these are not technically proofs, but more like reasonable inferences. Your implied definition of a proof seems to be inductive in nature based upon observables that are sensible or measurable.

There is another kind of logical argument called deductive, which is the kind of “proof” that Anselm’s ontological argument claims to be. It does not require any observably substantiated premises, merely premises that are demonstrably true in any way.

For example,

A deductive argument might look like this:
  1. An unmarried male is (by definition) a bachelor.
  2. Tim is an unmarried male.
    Therefore, Tim is (by definition) a bachelor.
In other words, the argument is a proof not based upon any observables but by the definition of the terms and their acceptance.

Mathematical proofs are deductive, as well. The fact that 1 + 1 = 2 does not require observable data, it is true by the definition of the terms in the equation. Deductive proofs, as in the arithmetic equation, are not verified by taking two sets of one and combining them to demonstrate the truth of the equation. The equation is true by definition, i.e., two is by definition 2 ones.

Anselm’s argument claims to be deductive because the conclusion derives by definition from the truth of the premises, just as Tim being a bachelor is derived logically from his unmarried status. Anselm claims that by definition God must exist in order to be the greatest possible being. In other words, he is holding that by definition “greatest possible being” entails existence as a logical necessity.

Your dismissal of the argument is entirely too facile.

There are different versions of the proof. Norman Malcolm’s and Alvin Plantinga’s are less ambiguous because they carefully define terms.

Guanilo’s purported refutation can be avoided by making a distinction between the greatest possible island, as a contingent entity which may or may not exist, and God, as uncaused cause or necessary being. In a way, the ontological argument can “piggyback” on Aquinas’ five ways to demonstrate that the greatest possible being could not be, by definition, a contingent being but would have to be a necessary one, and hence would have to, by definition, exist.

Plantinga has a very cogent form of the argument using modal logic and, I believe William Lane Craig is sympathetic to his own rendered version of it.

William Lane Craig’s version

Alvin Plantinga’s version
 
The ontological argument has to be viewed as directed to theists, who readily acknowledge that “a being of which no being greater can be conceived” is a valid concept. Why does such a being have to be conceived … just because I can conceive it? And exactly what does “greater” mean?

The skeptic has no compulsive reason to acknowledge that this is a valid concept.

Ergo, it proves nothing to him but that Anselm is preaching to the choir of which he is not a member. :rolleyes:
 
The ontological argument has to be viewed as directed to theists, who readily acknowledge that “a being of which no being greater can be conceived” is a valid concept. Why does such a being have to be conceived … just because I can conceive it? And exactly what does “greater” mean?

The skeptic has no compulsive reason to acknowledge that this is a valid concept.

Ergo, it proves nothing to him but that Anselm is preaching to the choir of which he is not a member. :rolleyes:
The modal form of the argument purports to provide a compulsive reason to acknowledge that maximally great being is a valid concept.

View youtube.com/watch?v=RQPRqHZRP68&feature=youtube_gdata_player
 
I, putting myself in the shoes of an atheist, did not find the modal argument a compelling reason to accept the ontological argument. So why would an atheist find it compelling?

From the atheist perspective, “a maximally great being” need not be a given as the definition of God. The atheist could counter that what we conceive to be the “maximally great being” might be just a being greater than ourselves, and of whom we are in awe, but not so great that he could not be just one of a pantheon of maximally great beings. A pantheon of maximally great beings is just as possible as one maximally great being. So the modal argument could be used to advance polytheism as well as monotheism.

It’s interesting also that Pascal, one of the great logicians of his day, did not find the ontological argument compelling. He produced instead the wager argument as a good deal more compelling a reason, and without the heavy baggage of suspecting a circular argument that is too heavy for some people to carry.

Bertrand Russell, another eminent logician, did not find the argument compelling, though he did admit it was difficult to find exactly where the argument failed.

I’ll repeat my earlier comment: the argument can certainly be very attractive to anyone already disposed to believe in a single maximally great being, but it has no compelling force with those who are not so disposed.
 
Confusion from post #6 :eek:
A deductive argument might look like this:
  1. An unmarried male is (by definition) a bachelor.
  2. Tim is an unmarried male.
    Therefore, Tim is (by definition) a bachelor.
In other words, the argument is a proof not based upon any observables but by the definition of the terms and their acceptance.
A deductive argument draws a conclusion from known facts.

THE KNOWN: 1. An unmarried male is a bachelor.
THE KNOWN; 2. Tim is an unmarried male.
THE CONCLUSION: Therefore, Tim is a bachelor.

Definitions are only incidental. They do not in themselves make the conclusion logical. The known “observables” do. 😃
 
Empther

THE KNOWN: 1. An unmarried male is a bachelor.
THE KNOWN; 2. Tim is an unmarried male.
THE CONCLUSION: Therefore, Tim is a bachelor.


Ordinarily, the subject and the predicate of the major premise should not be identical.

For example:

“All men are mortal.”

That is considerably different from:

“An unmarried man is a bachelor.”

For the simple reason that “mortal” is a predicate that belongs to all living things, not just men, whereas “bachelor” describes only human males.

“A unmarried man is a bachelor” is not much different from saying:

“A man is a male.” It doesn’t take us very far to be of much use in a syllogism.
 
In question 1, reply to objection 2,
http://www.newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm#article1
Aquinas rejects the ontological argument:

** **
In other words, although it sounds logical, it’s not a proof. The argument contains nothing that we can see, feel, taste, smell or otherwise sense, and therefore doesn‘t lead to a conclusion.

In contrast, Aquinas’s proof of God’s existence from the necessity of a first mover is based on our direct knowledge of the universe.
Very good summary. I do not know why so many are so hung up on the ontological argument. Modern versions are no better, IMO. They all try to prove God’s existence without looking at our experience. The great Ronald Knox summed it up quite well:
This attempt to prove the existence of God, or to declare the proof of it
unnecessary, without reference to the effects of his power which we
experience in his visible creation
, is a permanent temptation to the human
mind. Intellects as far removed from one another as those of Anselm,
Descartes, and de Bonald have umdertaken it, and it is probable that they
will never lack successors
. Protestant thought, in our day, is much wedded
not to these but to similar speculations. Thus, you will seldom read any
piece of non-Catholic apologetic without coming across some reference to
man’s sense of his need for God, or man’s notion of holiness, a notion
which can only be perfectly realised in God. The implication of all such
language is that it is possible to argue directly from the existence of
concepts in our own mind to the existence of real objects, to which those
concepts correspond.
**The Catholic Church discountenances all such methods of approach **to the
subject; some of them, at the Vatican Council, she has actually condemned.
She discountenances them, at least, if and in so far as they claim to be
the sole or the main argument for the existence of God. The main if not the
sole, argument for the existence of God–so she holds, and has always held-
-is the argument which proves the Unseen from the seen, the existence of
the Creator from his visible effects in Creation
.
All these efforts at the solution of the problem really depend for their
plausibility on a postulate which we do not grant–namely, that it would
have been impossible for the human race to infer God’s existence from his
creatures
. If this were true, then it might be argued that the notion of
God must be an idea directly communicated to our minds. Such an argument is
perfectly valid if applied to our sense of right and wrong; it must be
native to the mind, because there is nothing outside ourselves which could
possibly have suggested such a notion to us. But this is a simple idea,
directly entertained, whereas the idea of God is a composite idea, and the
attributes which we associate with it, power, wisdom, etc., are derived
from our Own experience. “If there had been no God,” said Napoleon, “it
would have been necessary to invent him”–at least, we may say it would
have been possible to invent him
. Thus the fact that the idea of God is
conceived by Our minds does not necessarily mean that it is inborn in us or
that it is directly communicated to us by some supernatural light.
When we have Aquinas’s five proofs, along with his arguments for the simplicity of God; all based on our direct experience and observations of nature; why do we need these purely mental excersices that are so easy to debunk. More from Knox:
“But at least,” St. Anselm would retort, “it is impossible to
think of an imperfect God, and therefore it is impossible to think of a
non-existent God.” To which the atheist replies with some justice that,
since God does not exist, it is not necessary to think about him at all.
You cannot argue from the ideal to the real order of things.
All taken from The Beliefs of Catholcs, ewtn.com/library/CHRIST/BELIEF.txt , which I cannot recommend strongly enough.
 
Empther

THE KNOWN: 1. An unmarried male is a bachelor.
THE KNOWN; 2. Tim is an unmarried male.
THE CONCLUSION: Therefore, Tim is a bachelor.


Ordinarily, the subject and the predicate of the major premise should not be identical.
All right. :hey_bud: How about this?

All flying blue whales are big.
Harry is a flying blue whale.
Therefore, Harry is big.

Is the conclusion correct? Sure, except for one minor detail.
There are no flying blue whales.

That takes scare of the confusion in post #6 and the ontological argument.
 
Confusion from post #6 :eek:

A deductive argument draws a conclusion from known facts.

THE KNOWN: 1. An unmarried male is a bachelor.
THE KNOWN; 2. Tim is an unmarried male.
THE CONCLUSION: Therefore, Tim is a bachelor.

Definitions are only incidental. They do not in themselves make the conclusion logical. The known “observables” do. 😃
Actually, the definitions are central because the conclusion is derived logically and necessarily from the premises provided that each predicate applied to the corresponding subject is true by definition. That is why I used the trite example of Tim the bachelor to show the definitional dependence.

The “All men are mortal” syllogism is true only if the first premise, that all men are mortal, is true by definition, i.e., that mortality is accepted as part of what it means to be a “man” by definition.

Square triangles are impossible, not because one has never been observed, but because squares and triangles exclude each other by definition.

Observables can be questionable. I can demonstrate by using an “observable” that the logical necessity of 1 + 1 = 2 does not apply “observably” in all cases.

Take one drop of water and carefully release it onto another drop. Voila! I have demonstrated, observably, that 1 drop of water plus another drop of water equals 1 (albeit bigger) drop of water. Therefore, 1 + 1 = 1 can be observably true.

However, what makes the equation 1 + 1 = 2 logically and necessarily true is not the observable combinations of things, it is the definition of 2 as a combination of 1 and 1. Therefore, it is the definition that is of logical relevance and not the observables. The observables give rise to inductive logical arguments, not deductive ones.

Deductive arguments base their truth value on whether the definition used adequately and fully represents the reality of the thing in question. That is why clear and unambiguous terms are central to the logical cogency of deductive arguments.

What makes a deductive argument compelling is that people can agree that the premises do correspond with their observation of reality, but what makes a deductive argument true is the logic and the adequacy by which actual reality is encompassed in the definition.

Your flying blue whale example is logically sound but not true because the subject does not exist. A necessary being has been shown to exist as Aquinas’ Uncaused Cause. Therefore, the logic of the modal form of the ontological argument follows.

The reason the modal form of the argument does not work for some is because they do not fully comprehend or accept the terms used, but that does not, of itself, demonstrate that the logic of the argument fails or that the argument is false. The shortcoming is in the reader, not the argument.
 
I, putting myself in the shoes of an atheist, did not find the modal argument a compelling reason to accept the ontological argument. So why would an atheist find it compelling?

From the atheist perspective, “a maximally great being” need not be a given as the definition of God. The atheist could counter that what we conceive to be the “maximally great being” might be just a being greater than ourselves, and of whom we are in awe, but not so great that he could not be just one of a pantheon of maximally great beings. A pantheon of maximally great beings is just as possible as one maximally great being. So the modal argument could be used to advance polytheism as well as monotheism.
Apparently you do not fully understand the term “maximally” great being because if you did you would not say that a maximally great being could be “just a being greater than ourselves.” To be logically and definitionally consistent a maximally great being would not be that if a greater could be conceived. For example, it could be argued that two or more maximally “potent” gods would be impossible because a more potent God could be conceived, one with both or all of their powers combined, therefore these gods would not be by definition “maximally” potent.

In the link provided, some of the “maximal” greatness producing properties were proposed. One of which was necessary, rather than contingent existence. Necessary existence would mean omnipotence by definition because only then would the existence of such a being be assured by definition. Two or more omnipotent deities would be impossible because the power of one would impose limitations on the other and hence neither would be omnipotent.

I do not think you have really thought about the meaning of maximally great being in a fair and complete manner.
It’s interesting also that Pascal, one of the great logicians of his day, did not find the ontological argument compelling. He produced instead the wager argument as a good deal more compelling a reason, and without the heavy baggage of suspecting a circular argument that is too heavy for some people to carry.

Bertrand Russell, another eminent logician, did not find the argument compelling, though he did admit it was difficult to find exactly where the argument failed.

I’ll repeat my earlier comment: the argument can certainly be very attractive to anyone already disposed to believe in a single maximally great being, but it has no compelling force with those who are not so disposed.
Bringing Pascal and Russell into the fray is not exactly relevant because they did not have access to the modal form of the argument nor to modal logic in general, so their critique is of limited use to this discussion. We are not here talking about Anselm’s formulations of the argument so why bring them up?
 
When we have Aquinas’s five proofs, along with his arguments for the simplicity of God; all based on our direct experience and observations of nature; why do we need these purely mental excersices that are so easy to debunk.
It is not clear to me that Aquinas’ third way was that much different from the modal form of the ontological argument

The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence — which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God. From newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm

Aquinas is claiming that the existence of contingent things leads logically to necessary things and if necessary things are possible they need to have been caused by other necessary things or by their own necessity. If by another, then these would only exist necessarily by a kind of “dependent” necessity from whatever they depend on. This dependency leads logically to the necessity of one absolutely necessary Being upon which all other necessary and contingent beings depend.

It is not clear to me how this is fundamentally different from saying, as the modal form of the ontological argument does, that if an absolutely necessary being is possible, i.e., one than which no greater can be conceived and that all others are dependent upon, then this necessary being must, of necessity, i.e., by definition, exist, which is exactly what Aquinas is claiming: a necessary Being is a presupposition for anything else to come into existence.

Both seem to be perspectives of the same basic concept, necessity.

By the way, I think that Knox is making an error when he claims,

All these efforts at the solution of the problem really depend for their
plausibility on a postulate which we do not grant–namely, that it would
have been impossible for the human race to infer God’s existence from his
creatures. If this were true, then it might be argued that the notion of
God must be an idea directly communicated to our minds.


The ontological argument does not presuppose that it is impossible to infer God’s existence from his creatures. This is not an either/ or kind of proposition. It is logically possible that both inductive and deductive proofs are possible. Having a deductive proof does not make inductive proofs impossible. Something can be true definitionally that can also be shown to be true inductively.

Knox’s references to the Church’s “discountenance” towards ontologism is quite a different matter than an ontological proof of God’s existence. The ontologism referred to by Knox concerns the Council of Vienna’s (1311-12) condemnation of the doctrine of the Begards who maintained that we can see God by our natural intelligence, that the being (ontology) of God can be wholly conceptualized through our natural intelligence.

The ontological argument is far from being a leap into ontologism. It is a claim about the fact of God’s existence, not the capturing of the ontology of God in conceptualized form.

See newadvent.org/cathen/11257a.htm on ontologism.
 
The ontological argument has to be viewed as directed to theists, who readily acknowledge that “a being of which no being greater can be conceived” is a valid concept. Why does such a being have to be conceived … just because I can conceive it? And exactly what does “greater” mean?

The skeptic has no compulsive reason to acknowledge that this is a valid concept.

Ergo, it proves nothing to him but that Anselm is preaching to the choir of which he is not a member. :rolleyes:
I would also like to point out that this is true of every argument - a skeptic always has a way out of any argument. Denying that a concept is valid is one way, but denying a premise of any argument, including Aquinas’ arguments is another. The skeptic merely has to claim they don’t accept one of the premises to “refute” the argument. Some skeptics even deny that truth is a valid concept and every attempt at proof is merely denied. That is the nature of “rationality:” no one can be compelled to accept a truth, even obvious truths.

There is always the out of denial, no matter what is being proposed, the abdication of reason itself, if necessary. If a skeptic doesn’t want to accept a conclusion, they can always find fault with the premises or logic. Reason does not function as a causally determinable kind of exercise. Premises, no matter how forceful, do not causally compel acceptance of the conclusion, but merely point in the direction.
 
Peter

**Two or more omnipotent deities would be impossible because the power of one would impose limitations on the other and hence neither would be omnipotent. I do not think you have really thought about the meaning of maximally great being in a fair and complete manner. **

Why have you introduced a new descriptive into the syllogism … “omnipotence”? There is nothing in Anselm or the modal argument that implies omnipotence. Are you going to go on adding descriptives of this maximally great being without even having proven that the being exists? Are you going to add “all knowing, all loving, all just, all merciful” etc. and from these qualities deduce existence? I don’t think so. A Christian is glad to concede these qualities to a “maximally great being,” but no atheist is obliged to concede any of them, and in all likelihood would merely scoff at the attempt.

**Bringing Pascal and Russell into the fray is not exactly relevant because they did not have access to the modal form of the argument nor to modal logic in general, so their critique is of limited use to this discussion. We are not here talking about Anselm’s formulations of the argument so why bring them up? **

You apparently have forgotten the question raised by the first post in this thread. It is not your prerogative to decide who should or should not be brought into the discussion. If Aquinas can be mentioned, so can Pascal and Russell. The likely reason that Pascal and Russell rejected Anselm’s version is that they did not find it conclusively persuasive. The same problem exists in more modern versions of the argument. It is a clever play on words and not much else.

You seem to have a profound belief in the modal argument that suggests you have not given fair and meaningful consideration of its limitations, which I have pointed out.
 
Peter

**Two or more omnipotent deities would be impossible because the power of one would impose limitations on the other and hence neither would be omnipotent. I do not think you have really thought about the meaning of maximally great being in a fair and complete manner. **

Why have you introduced a new descriptive into the syllogism … “omnipotence”? There is nothing in Anselm or the modal argument that implies omnipotence. Are you going to go on adding descriptives of this maximally great being without even having proven that the being exists? Are you going to add “all knowing, all loving, all just, all merciful” etc. and from these qualities deduce existence?

**Bringing Pascal and Russell into the fray is not exactly relevant because they did not have access to the modal form of the argument nor to modal logic in general, so their critique is of limited use to this discussion. We are not here talking about Anselm’s formulations of the argument so why bring them up? **
Maximally great being cannot be an empty concept to have any meaning. Potency is definitionally part of maximal greatness and maximal potency is most appropriate to maximal greatness. I am not “adding” anything that is not part of the concept of maximal greatness!
 
It is not clear to me that Aquinas’ third way was that much different from the modal form of the ontological argument

The third way is taken from possibility and necessity, and runs thus. We find in nature things that are possible to be and not to be, since they are found to be generated, and to corrupt, and consequently, they are possible to be and not to be. But it is impossible for these always to exist, for that which is possible not to be at some time is not. Therefore, if everything is possible not to be, then at one time there could have been nothing in existence. Now if this were true, even now there would be nothing in existence, because that which does not exist only begins to exist by something already existing. Therefore, if at one time nothing was in existence, it would have been impossible for anything to have begun to exist; and thus even now nothing would be in existence — which is absurd. Therefore, not all beings are merely possible, but there must exist something the existence of which is necessary. But every necessary thing either has its necessity caused by another, or not. Now it is impossible to go on to infinity in necessary things which have their necessity caused by another, as has been already proved in regard to efficient causes. Therefore we cannot but postulate the existence of some being having of itself its own necessity, and not receiving it from another, but rather causing in others their necessity. This all men speak of as God. From newadvent.org/summa/1002.htm

Aquinas is claiming that the existence of contingent things leads logically to necessary things and if necessary things are possible they need to have been caused by other necessary things or by their own necessity. If by another, then these would only exist necessarily by a kind of “dependent” necessity from whatever they depend on. This dependency leads logically to the necessity of one absolutely necessary Being upon which all other necessary and contingent beings depend.

It is not clear to me how this is fundamentally different from saying, as the modal form of the ontological argument does, that if an absolutely necessary being is possible, i.e., one than which no greater can be conceived and that all others are dependent upon, then this necessary being must, of necessity, i.e., by definition, exist, which is exactly what Aquinas is claiming: a necessary Being is a presupposition for anything else to come into existence.

Both seem to be perspectives of the same basic concept, necessity.

By the way, I think that Knox is making an error when he claims,

All these efforts at the solution of the problem really depend for their
plausibility on a postulate which we do not grant–namely, that it would
have been impossible for the human race to infer God’s existence from his
creatures. If this were true, then it might be argued that the notion of
God must be an idea directly communicated to our minds.


The ontological argument does not presuppose that it is impossible to infer God’s existence from his creatures. This is not an either/ or kind of proposition. It is logically possible that both inductive and deductive proofs are possible. Having a deductive proof does not make inductive proofs impossible. Something can be true definitionally that can also be shown to be true inductively.

Knox’s references to the Church’s “discountenance” towards ontologism is quite a different matter than an ontological proof of God’s existence. The ontologism referred to by Knox concerns the Council of Vienna’s (1311-12) condemnation of the doctrine of the Begards who maintained that we can see God by our natural intelligence, that the being (ontology) of God can be wholly conceptualized through our natural intelligence.

The ontological argument is far from being a leap into ontologism. It is a claim about the fact of God’s existence, not the capturing of the ontology of God in conceptualized form.

See newadvent.org/cathen/11257a.htm on ontologism.
Well, it seems quite plain to me that Aquinas’ thrid proof starts out with what we observe about nature, and the ontological arguments do not (they are purely mental arguments).

I will grant you that Knox’s statement does imply an either/or approach to proving God’s existence, and that is not the case. But the rest of Knox’s arguments seems very sound (and prophetic I might add).

Again, why the fascination with a purely mental approach to God’s existence? IMO, it seems to have gotten philospohy no where, nor theology, nor apologetics. And Aquinas does set the standard and approach for the Church in philosophy. And Aquinas was realist, he started everything with what he saw.

If it was just me, a very rank amatuer on these matters, I would not be critical on the ontological argument. But there are great, Catholic philosophers throughout history who had the same problems many common men have with it.

“To which the atheist replies with some justice that, since God does not exist, it is not necessary to think about him at all.”
 
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