Answering Eastern Orthodox Claims

[Alexios]

Paten,

Are you kidding me? We should make a thread showing a step-by-step comparison of the Traditional Mass’ catholicity vs. the Pauline Mass’ ambiguity.

How can one believe that something that has developed within the Tradition of the Church and nourished saints and scholars, monks and ascetics, kings and peasants for well over a 15 centuries is not inherently more mystical than a Mass created during the tumult of the 1960s by very likely Freemasons with the consultation of Protestant heretics?

Now, you say “intrinsically,” and for good reason. We know that the Mass we most often see is not “instrinsic” to the nature of the New Mass. True, a Pauline Mass by the books with no ad-libbing isn’t nearly as bad as 90% of the stuff we see today, but it is still ambiguous in many places and much impoverished.

And the Catholic Church doesn’t teach that one can not be united to the Church and be saved. Salvation only comes through the Church. Now, there are some who are not by name Catholics who can be (and probably are) saved, but they are united to the Church in a mysterious way. The surest means of salvation is to profess the orthodox Catholic Faith handed down to us by the Holy Apostles and Our Lord Himself, and try to live it out. All other means are extraordinary. So, the Church clearly does teach that outside the Church there is no salvation (sound familiar?).

I actually don’t think we disagree in substance (except in regards to the Old and New Masses). You have used very precise wording, but you’ve seemed to use the words in such a way as to imply that something we know not to be true (“It doesn’t matter if you’re Catholic or not”) is actually factual.

 

[Alexios]

Paten,

Good point. But I think Church can be capitalized when speaking of a sui iuris church by name. E.g. it’s the Melkite Church not the Melkite church.

 

[The_Iambic_Pen]

I would like to add, though, that I am not a fan of stifling debate, and I think that Eastern Orthodox believers should have a chance to voice their opinions here, or at least somewhere on this Forum. Telling people to shut up doesn’t satisfy the readers’ hunger for truth and for logic

Oh, I quite agree. My post was simply a friendly warning to a new poster who I would like to be able to continue to post here. I miss the old Eastern Christianity forum, where free discussion between Catholics and Orthodox was common. What is done is done, however, and I am sure there were good reasons for it. I do believe, however, that one can continue to have such discussions in the Non-Catholic Religions forum.

it also makes it look like the people silencing them are worried that those others might be right.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

With that, the compare/contrast exercise between the Eastern Christianity and Eastern Catholicism boards will cease.

 

[Ungcsertez]

Ungcsertez;3216534:

“Churches” are not analogous to “rites” in the Catholic Church. Within the Byzantine Rite for example, there are several churches or traditions – and it’s “churches” not “Churches” in this context as there is only one Catholic C

hurch.

Eastern Christians in Union w/Rome should have the respect to be called a Church and not a Rite, it is very degrading to just be called(fill in the blank here ______)Rite Catholic Church.

No one refers to the Latin Particular Church as the “Roman Rite Catholic Church”, so why use this moniker fo the Eastern Churches in Union w/Rome?

Ung:byzsoc:

 

[melkite_orthodo]

Antonius,

I am an Orthodox Christian, formerly Melkite. I was received into the Orthodox Church at that parish in Aiken, St. Catherine’s, that you speak of.

I also used to be a member of the Melkite Church in Augusta, very good folks there! They are served by two very holy priests. I am sure that they also can help you.

The key is not to focus on personalities. Read the book that another has suggested, “The Primacy of Peter,” edited by John Meyendorff. Be patient and search out the truth at all costs. I still deeply love the Melkite Church though and it is a good place to be. I’ll keep you in my prayers and God bless.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Ameen.

God bless,

Rony

The first person to comment!

 

[ASimpleSinner]

The key is not to focus on personalities. Read the book that another has suggested, “The Primacy of Peter,” edited by John Meyendorff. Be patient and search out the truth at all costs. I still deeply love the Melkite Church though and it is a good place to be. I’ll keep you in my prayers and God bless.

In tandem to the Meyendorf tome, perusing Jesus, Peter and the Keys and perhaps Apologia pro vita sua would be useful on balance.

Welcome to the forum MO, good to be able to run into you hear as well as ByzCath. I have to say, I find your choice of screen name interesting.

Still, nice to have you.

 

[melkite_orthodo]

In tandem to the Meyendorf tome, perusing Jesus, Peter and the Keys and perhaps Apologia pro vita sua would be useful on balance.

Welcome to the forum MO, good to be able to run into you hear as well as ByzCath. I have to say, I find your choice of screen name interesting.

Still, nice to have you.

Hey thanks for the welcome. For some reason I couldn’t do “Melkite_orthodox.” It would cut off the “X”. Even though I’m Orthodox, I still love the Melkite Church deeply and recognize my time as a Melkite as a time of God’s leading and spiritual growth. It is nice to see you here too. I don’t know how active I will be, but I was lurking and noticed that the poster lives close to my former church(es). Therefore, I thought I could put in a word about them. They are both (the Melkite and the Orthodox) excellent parishes.

 

[melkite_orthodo]

And I agree with you too that the OP should read multiple tomes on this subject from differing perspectives. Also, I recommend focusing on historical, scholarly accounts rather than on apologetic works. I have found most apologetics (both Catholic and Orthodox) to be disappointing.

 

[Hesychios]

And I agree with you too that the OP should read multiple tomes on this subject from differing perspectives. Also, I recommend focusing on historical, scholarly accounts rather than on apologetic works. I have found most apologetics (both Catholic and Orthodox) to be disappointing.

How true!

There is more than enough real scholarship published by reputable sources . I suspect that a great many are afraid of it because it is not necessarily endorsed in some way by people or organizations they feel they can trust. But it’s out there and easily obtainable.

There is also an awful lot of endorsed, approved and otherwise recommended garbage available.

 

[melkite_orthodo]

How true!

There is more than enough real scholarship published by reputable sources . I suspect that a great many are afraid of it because it is not necessarily endorsed in some way by people or organizations they feel they can trust. But it’s out there and easily obtainable.

There is also an awful lot of endorsed, approved and otherwise recommended garbage available.

I think that what people come to realize when they read real scholarly literature is that there is no “slam dunk” case either way. One can make a case for a strong Papal Primacy and one can make a case against it and there is no certitude to be had on the matter. Apologetic works, on the other hand, lull us into a false sense of certitude because they cherry pick quotations from the fathers and present them out of context.

 

[Catherine_Grant]

**Moderator Note:

** A comment on the divisions between East and West was sufficiently off-topic to create a new thread from them. Please see here for that discussion.

A comment on Eastern Catholic relations with the Roman Catholic and Orthodox Churches was sufficiently off-topic to create a new thread from them. Please see here for that discussion.

Please keep this discussion on topic. Thank you.

 

[lapsedcatholic]

I sympathize with your plight. After attending a protestant church for many years, I am returning to the true church- I think! But as a studied the history of the Church and its doctrine I too encountered the fork in the road that leads to Orthodoxy on one hand and Catholicism on the other. I have read much about the differences between the two, and I am probably no closer to making up my mind than when I started. But here is a good post at a blog by someone who has been down that same road, by Fr. Alvin Kimmel. He finally ended up in the Catholic church and provides some insight into his reasoning here:pontifications.wordpress.com/road-to-rome/

 

[mardukm]

Dear brother Antonius,

As I am introduced to Eastern Orthodoxy, I find that I am more spiritually filled in the Eastern ways than in my own Roman Rite. Personally I find the Roman Rite to be well…spiritually dry. The Eastern emphasis on the Trinity, the mystery of Faith, and their awesome reverence for the Eucharist is sooooo appealing to me.

I hope the Spirit guides you on your journey. I have not yet read the entire thread, and perhaps someone already addressed the part that I highlighted in your quote above.

When I translated to Catholicism from Orthodoxy (Coptic), one thing I noticed that was so obvious about Latin Catholicism is the availability of the Eucharist to the people, as well as their practice of Eucharistic adoration.

Can you please explain why you think there is not an “awesome reverence” for the Eucharist in your current Church? I find it hard to believe. From a purely analytic perspective, I will admit that based on mere observation, an outsider who knew nothing about Catholicism or Orthodoxy would be more inclined to think that (Latin) Catholics appreciate the Eucharist more than the Orthodox do. I am greatly puzzled that you have not felt “awesome reverence” for the Eucharist within your Church.

Blessings,
Marduk

 

[gamesport]

Dear brother Antonius,

When I translated to Catholicism from Orthodoxy (Coptic), one thing I noticed that was so obvious about Latin Catholicism is the availability of the Eucharist to the people, as well as their practice of Eucharistic adoration.

Can you please explain why you think there is not an “awesome reverence” for the Eucharist in your current Church? I find it hard to believe. From a purely analytic perspective, I will admit that based on mere observation, an outsider who knew nothing about Catholicism or Orthodoxy would be more inclined to think that (Latin) Catholics appreciate the Eucharist more than the Orthodox do. I am greatly puzzled that you have not felt “awesome reverence” for the Eucharist within your Church.

Blessings,
Marduk

Good point, i’m tempted, to believe some people making all these claims (of percieved reverence for things or ‘events’), are just dissemblers, pretending to grasp something that isn’t really there.

 

[steve_b]

Well for the first time in my journey home to the Catholic Church I am experiencing doubts about my calling. It all began when I did some study into the Eastern rites of the Catholic Church. In short, I am falling in love with the Byzantine/Melkite Rite of the Church. This however placed me into contact with Eastern Orthodoxy, which I have found to be highly anti-Catholic in nature. They claim to be the true Church Jesus founded, and unlike groups like Mormons, the EO have valid Apostolic Succession to back up that claim.

As I am introduced to Eastern Orthodoxy, I find that I am more spiritually filled in the Eastern ways than in my own Roman Rite. Personally I find the Roman Rite to be well…spiritually dry. The Eastern emphasis on the Trinity, the mystery of Faith, and their awesome reverence for the Eucharist is sooooo appealing to me.

For the first time I am beginning to wonder whether or not Catholicism is the truth. I hear of Catholics who become Orthodox and that scares me. They claim they have found the genuine Apostolic faith!

I prayed to St. Peter the other day, asking him to ask Jesus to reveal to me which Church was genuine. So far, I feel God has answered me with a resounding yes that the Catholic Church is the one. But how can I know for sure that God is answering me???

In reading through the thread I hope not to repeat what others have already responded to.

As Paul says

Rom 16:17…

I urge you, brothers, to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way that are contrary to the teaching you have learned. Keep away from them. 18For such people are not serving our Lord Christ, but their own appetites. By smooth talk and flattery they deceive the minds of naive people. 19Everyone has heard about your obedience, so I am full of joy over you; but I want you to be wise about what is good, and innocent about what is evil.

i.e. schism is evil.

antonius:

**In any case, I am finding it increasingly difficult to answer Eastern Orthodox claims about themselves and claims about the Catholic Church. It seems the Catholic Church is strong on defending herself against the Protestants, but touchy about taking a stand against the Eastern Orthodox. **

The worst part of this is that I am not being spiritually fulfilled in my own Roman Church. It just doesn’t have the awe of the liturgies of the East. I live in the Deep South, so it is a blessing that there is even a Catholic Church in my county. As far as I know there is not a single Eastern Catholic Church anywhere I live, BUT ironically there is an Eastern Orthodox Church LESS THAN 5 MINUTES FROM MY HOUSE!!!

I am tempted to go to the Divine Liturgy at the Eastern Orthodox Church on Sunday and not to the Catholic Church, but I know that that would be a sin since the EO are in schism. I am soooo confused! Any thoughts???

It seems to me if you are drawn to the East, check out an Eastern rite of Catholicism. That way you remain united to the chair of Peter.

It’s never okay to go into schism.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

Rather than have him choose between the Roman Church and a Catholic Church standing proxy for an Orthodox Church, why not approbate his attending an Orthodox liturgy?

Let each Church speak for Herself; the Truth, which is God, will out.

+Slava Isusu Christu

 

[steve_b]

Rather than have him choose between the Roman Church and a Catholic Church standing proxy for an Orthodox Church, why not approbate his attending an Orthodox liturgy?

Proxy? Sheesh! :dts:

I’m suggesting that given the option of a liturgy in union with the pope or a schismatic liturgy, he NOT take part in a schismatic liturgy.

 

[Servus_Pio_XII]

I’m suggesting that given the option of a liturgy in union with the pope or a schismatic liturgy, he NOT take part in a schismatic liturgy.

His concerns clearly supercede mere liturgical practice.

In any case, I am finding it increasingly difficult to answer Eastern Orthodox claims about themselves and claims about the Catholic Church. It seems the Catholic Church is strong on defending herself against the Protestants, but touchy about taking a stand against the Eastern Orthodox.