Answering "hate religion, love Jesus"

[lynnvinc]

Thanks for the Fr. Barron link. He made a good point when he said that if Jefferson Bethke, who “hates religion,” is just railing against the corruption in the church, then he is on his side, but if he’s trying to separate Jesus from his mystical body, the Church, then he is against him.

Going over the poem, I think it’s the former. For one thing he says, “Now let me clarify, I love the church, I love the bible, and yes I believe in sin, but if Jesus came to your church would they actually let him in?”

Bethke has become demoralized – not (it seems) by the Church magesterium, the hierarchy, the Pope, or the rituals, but by the way people use religion as a skirt behind which to hide their bad deeds, thus allowing them free rein on self-righteousness (which is a constant temptation to people on the road to perfection and holiness). I’m also demoralized by this hypocrisy to some extent. It’s not so much the hierarchy, but the lay people (and some priests) who are acting as the bad pharisees in Jesus’s parables.

On his website Bethke explains his poem (see rapgenius.com/Jefferson-bethke-why-i-hate-religion-but-love-jesus-spoken-word-lyrics ):

A poem I wrote to highlight the difference between Jesus and false religion. In the scriptures Jesus received the most opposition from the most religious people of his day. At its core Jesus’ gospel and the good news of the Cross is in pure opposition to self-righteousness/self-justification.

Note the words right after his opening line of “What if I told you Jesus came to abolish religion”:

What if I told you
voting republican really wasn’t his mission
What if I told you
republican doesn’t automatically mean Christian
And just because you call some people blind
Doesn’t automatically give you vision

My thinking is that Democrats may be blind to the sin of abortion (overly compassionate toward women “in trouble,” and not enough toward their fetuses), but Republicans are also into a pro-death agenda. Neither party has the roadmap to Heaven.

However, many Evangelicals and a good portion of Catholics have created an unholy alliance with the Republican Party. But political parties are just that – political parties, not religions, but amalgamations of many stands on many issues. A true Christian would find agreement with both parties on certain issues, and disagreement on others.

In my books Republicans have not cornered the market on pro-life and other religious issues, and they are harming religion by making their party out to be the bearer of true Christianity. Its supposed stand against abortion seems disingenuous in the total context of what it stands for – including promoting death through environmental harms, such as local pollution, climate change, etc (by way of denial). And a frequent Republican/Christian response to this – they deny that environmental problems are serious and killing people; they deny climate change, like Cain denied involvement in Abel’s killing. “And just because you call some people blind doesn’t automatically give you vision.”

A real Christian would be against abortion both through medical procedure AND through other means, such as environmental toxins, and would be against the various other means by which we kill people, including the ways we also kill born people. And would be against the willful destruction and wasting of God’s good creation that pretty much ensure that a large portion of future generations cannot survive, so self can live profligately today.

People who are truly concerned about protecting life and are serious disciples of Jesus, seeking union with God, would not be denying their complicity in wrong, but striving to reduce their harm and inspire others to do likewise, rather than working like demons to get everyone else to deny the harm. And to make matters worse, Republicans use religion as a cover for this immorality, thereby besmearing religion itself; and when Christians are wooed into this Republican deception, they also harm religion.

It’s demoralizing how so many Americans (especially) considering themselves religious actually go against Jesus, the Holy Fathers (JPII & BXVI), and the 10 commandments. They neither go in, nor do they allow others to go in. Note the CAF thread “Why do liberal Catholics stay in the Church?” which perhaps means “get out because I don’t want to hear what you have to say about the harm that I’m doing…I’ll deny it.”

Bethke, with issues different from mine, is demoralized by the false religion being promoted in our day…a religion far from the teachings of Jesus, and it seems to be getting worse and worse.

I think a response to the poem could be not to rail against it (fussing and make counter-videos), but make ourselves better and better, cleanse our Church of self-righteousness and blindness to our sins and faults, and then our concern for other people’s sins will come across as genuine.

I also need to look at how I’m self-righteous and blind to my sins and faults, while at the same time not becoming proud and self-righteous as I improve – a difficult trick, only possible with God’s grace, and with comparing my tiny, sinful self to the grandeur and goodness of God, and not to the worse sinners I can find around me

“Ignoring the imperfections of others, preserving silence and a continual communion with God will eradicate great imperfections from the soul and it make it the possessor of great virtues.” St. John of the Cross, “The Sayings of Light and Love,” #118.

 

[Newsy]

Thanks for the Fr. Barron link. He made a good point when he said that if Jefferson Bethke, who “hates religion,” is just railing against the corruption in the church, then he is on his side, but if he’s trying to separate Jesus from his mystical body, the Church, then he is against him.

Going over the poem, I think it’s the former. For one thing he says, “Now let me clarify, I love the church, I love the bible, and yes I believe in sin, but if Jesus came to your church would they actually let him in?”

Bethke has become demoralized – not (it seems) by the Church magesterium, the hierarchy, the Pope, or the rituals, but by the way people use religion as a skirt behind which to hide their bad deeds, thus allowing them free rein on self-righteousness (which is a constant temptation to people on the road to perfection and holiness). I’m also demoralized by this hypocrisy to some extent. It’s not so much the hierarchy, but the lay people (and some priests) who are acting as the bad pharisees in Jesus’s parables.

On his website Bethke explains his poem (see rapgenius.com/Jefferson-bethke-why-i-hate-religion-but-love-jesus-spoken-word-lyrics ):

A poem I wrote to highlight the difference between Jesus and false religion. In the scriptures Jesus received the most opposition from the most religious people of his day. At its core Jesus’ gospel and the good news of the Cross is in pure opposition to self-righteousness/self-justification.

Note the words right after his opening line of “What if I told you Jesus came to abolish religion”:

What if I told you
voting republican really wasn’t his mission
What if I told you
republican doesn’t automatically mean Christian
And just because you call some people blind
Doesn’t automatically give you vision

My thinking is that Democrats may be blind to the sin of abortion (overly compassionate toward women “in trouble,” and not enough toward their fetuses), but Republicans are also into a pro-death agenda. Neither party has the roadmap to Heaven.

However, many Evangelicals and a good portion of Catholics have created an unholy alliance with the Republican Party. But political parties are just that – political parties, not religions, but amalgamations of many stands on many issues. A true Christian would find agreement with both parties on certain issues, and disagreement on others.

In my books Republicans have not cornered the market on pro-life and other religious issues, and they are harming religion by making their party out to be the bearer of true Christianity. Its supposed stand against abortion seems disingenuous in the total context of what it stands for – including promoting death through environmental harms, such as local pollution, climate change, etc (by way of denial). And a frequent Republican/Christian response to this – they deny that environmental problems are serious and killing people; they deny climate change, like Cain denied involvement in Abel’s killing. “And just because you call some people blind doesn’t automatically give you vision.”

A real Christian would be against abortion both through medical procedure AND through other means, such as environmental toxins, and would be against the various other means by which we kill people, including the ways we also kill born people. And would be against the willful destruction and wasting of God’s good creation that pretty much ensure that a large portion of future generations cannot survive, so self can live profligately today.

People who are truly concerned about protecting life and are serious disciples of Jesus, seeking union with God, would not be denying their complicity in wrong, but striving to reduce their harm and inspire others to do likewise, rather than working like demons to get everyone else to deny the harm. And to make matters worse, Republicans use religion as a cover for this immorality, thereby besmearing religion itself; and when Christians are wooed into this Republican deception, they also harm religion.

It’s demoralizing how so many Americans (especially) considering themselves religious actually go against Jesus, the Holy Fathers (JPII & BXVI), and the 10 commandments. They neither go in, nor do they allow others to go in. Note the CAF thread “Why do liberal Catholics stay in the Church?” which perhaps means “get out because I don’t want to hear what you have to say about the harm that I’m doing…I’ll deny it.”

Bethke, with issues different from mine, is demoralized by the false religion being promoted in our day…a religion far from the teachings of Jesus, and it seems to be getting worse and worse.

I think a response to the poem could be not to rail against it (fussing and make counter-videos), but make ourselves better and better, cleanse our Church of self-righteousness and blindness to our sins and faults, and then our concern for other people’s sins will come across as genuine.

I also need to look at how I’m self-righteous and blind to my sins and faults, while at the same time not becoming proud and self-righteous as I improve – a difficult trick, only possible with God’s grace, and with comparing my tiny, sinful self to the grandeur and goodness of God, and not to the worse sinners I can find around me

“Ignoring the imperfections of others, preserving silence and a continual communion with God will eradicate great imperfections from the soul and it make it the possessor of great virtues.” St. John of the Cross, “The Sayings of Light and Love,” #118.

Great post.

I would add that there are pro-life Democrats, few, but they exist. There are also pro-choice Republicans. Thanks be to God, we follow Him and not a political party.

 

[JimG]

On his website Bethke explains his poem (see rapgenius.com/Jefferson-bethke-why-i-hate-religion-but-love-jesus-spoken-word-lyrics ):

A poem I wrote to highlight the difference between Jesus and false religion. In the scriptures Jesus received the most opposition from the most religious people of his day. At its core Jesus’ gospel and the good news of the Cross is in pure opposition to self-righteousness/self-justification.

A poem he wrote to highlight the “difference between Jesus and false religion.”

It still seems to me to be rather arrogant to set oneself up as the arbiter of what is or is not “false religion.”

Yes, Jesus received much opposition from “the most religious people” of his day. He also received the most support from the religious people of his day–the Jews. Jesus did not preach to Gentiles, he did not preach at ‘non-denominational’ churches.

He preached at synagogues, and at the Temple. He preached to devout Jews. He told them to do what the Pharisees and Rabbi’s told them, because they were the teachers, but not to follow their example. Jesus himself was a pharisee and a rabbi.

He said he came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. He established his Church by telling Peter “upon this Rock, I will build my Church.” It was that Church, once established that preached the Gospel worldwide, that Church which expanded the Church to the gentiles, that Church which wrote the Gospels, that Church which ensured the continuation of the teaching of Jesus.

 

[couponfit]

I didn’t know this thread addressed the recent video on YouTube, so I started another thread about it. I’ll share my thoughts:

A few days back in our Disciples in Mission group, Sister mentioned the video gone viral, “Why I Hate Religion, but Love Jesus.”

Then today I get an email with a link to “Why I Love Religion, and Love Jesus.” See youtube.com/watch?feature…&v=Ru_tC4fv6FE

I liked it, so I looked up the “Hate Religion” video, thinking it was by some atheist or something. See youtube.com/watch?v=1IAhDGYlpqY

It has an annoying ad you can skip. I found I also liked it a lot. Here are the lyrics with explanations of them by the author: rapgenius.com/Jefferson-bethke-why-i-hate-religion-but-love-jesus-spoken-word-lyrics

As an anthropologist I would point out that culture (shared beliefs & values, which includes religion) is not the sole determinant of behavior. The human condition is also impacted by psychological, social, biological, and environmental factors, and while culture may impact us, it is not the sole determinant of our behavior. So one cannot really blame (at least not totally) wars and terrorist attacks on religion; that goes not only for Christianity, but Islam and other religions too.

As a religious person, I would add the spiritual dimension…not to be confused with religion (which is cultural and human-made, as the vid points out). We cannot study or know the spiritual dimension the way we can the other dimensions; it is beyond our human comprehension, but we get glimpses. And I believe God is active in the establishment and continuation of the Catholic Church. Being Catholic and Catholicism has made a difference for good in the world, tho many Catholics have also been naughty, some very naughty.

As a lay Carmelite I would very much welcome this “Hate Religion” video as a mirror for my many flaws. It calls me to be a better Christian and better Carmelite. To live the Little Way of Spiritual Childhood, so that people will hate religion less.

At that same Disciples in Mission meeting we discussed spiritual experiences, those “glimpses.” And I mentioned how my Carmelite president up north had said she figured that Protestants tend to get these spiritual experiences more than Catholics because in Catholicism we have everything. We don’t need them. And she is right.

We just need to get past the pharisees in our own churches who neither go in, nor let others in, and we’re on the road to union with God. Jesus can, like an elevator (St. Therese’s analogy), lift us up past those blockages and our own failings and weakness.

As a Carmelite, I would suggest seeing both videos, and get the inspiration to come and be closer to Jesus (or stop running from the Hound of Heaven).

Good way of looking at it. I saw it as a good personal testimony for those who simply attend service with no belief or faith.

 

[MTKM]

youtube.com/watch?v=_AFoIDsBTcc

I was too lazy to see if this had already been posted…I guess it doesn’t hurt to post it again. I like this response.

 

[IanGE]

He presents many excellent concepts in a very enjoyable ad creative manner, and he is correct in that we should act as one in Christ’s Love and Church.

Although his growth in becoming one with the Holy Spirit is quite mature, he has either not yet learned that acting as One Church in Christ’s Love means learning in union with the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church…or…he is going to release another video which glorifies Christ’s Church.

Thoughts?

When I received my Baptism of the Spirit in 1982, I was astounded to witness (and personally experience) so many gifts of the Spirit, tongues, healing, driving out of demons (see Mark 16:17&18). How come none of these witnesses to the Living Jesus were hidden from me in my then previous 46 years as a “good” Catholic? The Acts of the Apostles abounds in works of the Holy Spirit and then NOTHING till the 1970s in the Catholic Church (earlier for other denominations particularly the Welsh Revival in the early 1900s). I began researching for a book I planned to entitle “The Black Hole of the Holy Spirit”. Plenty of Holy Spirit in the Acts. Then I read Bishop Eusebius’ Church History (some 300 years after Acts). Hardly ANY mention of the Holy Spirit. There is one sentence concerning a Church Council which “tongue-speakers tried to disrupt as usual”!!!
Then I read the 95 theses which Martin Luther (a Catholic priest) nailed to the church door. One of these is “if the Church will not work with the Holy Spirit then the Holy Spirit will work with the Laity.” I was quite distressed, but the Lord gave me Matthew 16:18 to read, “Thou art Petros and upon Petra I will build My Ecclesia - AND THE GATES OF ADOU (Hades) SHALL NOT PREVAIL AGAINST IT!” I tore up my manuscript, happy to leave the Church in the hands of the Lord!
PS Of interest - around Jesus’ time, cities (like Jerusalem) grew up higgeldy-piggeldy and the only open space was usually within the square of the wall gates. Council meetings were therefore held there. Sorry if I’m teaching Grandma to suck eggs!

 

[lynnvinc]

A poem he wrote to highlight the “difference between Jesus and false religion.”

It still seems to me to be rather arrogant to set oneself up as the arbiter of what is or is not “false religion.”

Yes, Jesus received much opposition from “the most religious people” of his day. He also received the most support from the religious people of his day–the Jews. Jesus did not preach to Gentiles, he did not preach at ‘non-denominational’ churches.

He preached at synagogues, and at the Temple. He preached to devout Jews. He told them to do what the Pharisees and Rabbi’s told them, because they were the teachers, but not to follow their example. Jesus himself was a pharisee and a rabbi.

He said he came not to destroy the Law, but to fulfill it. He established his Church by telling Peter “upon this Rock, I will build my Church.” It was that Church, once established that preached the Gospel worldwide, that Church which expanded the Church to the gentiles, that Church which wrote the Gospels, that Church which ensured the continuation of the teaching of Jesus.

I think when we are young we are very idealistic, and easily demoralized by hypocrisy.

I left my Presbyterian church at age 15 for such reasons, even though my humble, holy choir master told us that when you point a finger at someone, there are 3 fingers pointing back at yourself (and he made a pointed finger to demonstrate). It took decades for that to finally sink in. When I became a Catholic I realized the church would be full of sinner, and I was one

But for young people, one of the main reasons I think that they leave the church or become upset about it is the corruption and hypocrisy they find in it, due to their unrealistic standards they hold for other people…which even they themselves cannot meet.

That’s why it’s important for us elders to give good examples and truly be good. Strive harder with God’s grace in prayer and the practice of virtues.

I was just thinking the other day about the words “adult content,” “adult movie,” etc. That should mean something of higher virtue and wisdom.

 

[Marcarios]

That may be true im sure. Yes being young and idealistic …Ive come to understand that the scandal for me lied in the indifference of those who are supposed to be in charge. I did the best thing for myself I changed to a different parish. However Ive come to realize that there are those who dont care or just see the church as a money making machine and the services as just business as usual. There really is a “church” within the Church. Thats the problem . In my opinion.

 

[StrawberryJam]

We all see these comments and beliefs almost every day? What’s the best way to tackle these anti- church philosophies?

I can only speak for myself on this question.
I have seen the love of Jesus first from a believer in him. Not so much from the religion.
I keep staying on because I feel there must be something to this thing. Something I just am not getting.

 

[fbl9]

I can only speak for myself on this question.
I have seen the love of Jesus first from a believer in him. Not so much from the religion.
I keep staying on because I feel there must be something to this thing. Something I just am not getting.

Well Strawberry it’s a gift, holding the box and not opening it won’t get you far. Go to RCIA and join the Church . open your gift.

 

[Ambrosian]

It seems to me that the creator of the “I hate religion but love Jesus” video is ignorant of his own theological roots. The denial of religion and movement into pure fideism is actually a result of philosophers from the established Calvinist religion in Geneva, and the obviously-hierarchical religion of Presbyterians and Congregationalists. They started off very “high church” in the sense that they maintained everyone had to be in their Calvinist Church to be saved, but gradually their theology fell more into a broad “Jesusism”, if you want to call it that.

The sad irony for this young man is that his denial of religion comes straight from a specific Christian religion. He would never have had this idea if not for scholastics and “divines” of certain strongly-institutional Anglo-Saxon and German churches. It’s rather laughable, if his ignorance weren’t so evil for his soul…

 

[JimG]

I think when we are young we are very idealistic, and easily demoralized by hypocrisy.

I left my Presbyterian church at age 15 for such reasons, even though my humble, holy choir master told us that when you point a finger at someone, there are 3 fingers pointing back at yourself (and he made a pointed finger to demonstrate). It took decades for that to finally sink in. When I became a Catholic I realized the church would be full of sinner, and I was one

But for young people, one of the main reasons I think that they leave the church or become upset about it is the corruption and hypocrisy they find in it, due to their unrealistic standards they hold for other people…which even they themselves cannot meet.

That’s why it’s important for us elders to give good examples and truly be good. Strive harder with God’s grace in prayer and the practice of virtues.

I was just thinking the other day about the words “adult content,” “adult movie,” etc. That should mean something of higher virtue and wisdom.

Yes, it is true that the best teaching is by example. My own Faith would be much weaker if not for the joyful examples of peaceful, holy, charitable Catholics I have known.

At the same time, the video seemed to me to represent the advocacy of emotion over reason, of feelings over thinking, of poetry over theology.

As Ambrosian notes in his post, the young man seems to be ignorant of his own theological roots.

One trouble with the Internet Age is that paradoxically, it enables this sort of behavior. The internet and mass media enable the worldwide flow of information. Those same tools enable the widespread flow of misinformation. Without historical roots, and philosophical roots, and yes, theological roots, religion becomes only the flavor of the moment, and “loving Jesus” a mere exercise in personal expression.

 

[Marcarios]

Looking at the posts so far on this video. It makes me wonder why Roman Catholics are so concerned about the precieved content in the video. Ive watched this video several times . The video doesn’t mention the Roman Catholic Church , however he mentions the “church”. How does this effect you if your Roman Catholic, or Anglican or what have you? The young man in the video isnt attacking a particular religion. He uses religion in a general sense. Perhaps you come to this understanding that he is speaking of false piety and irreligion. The Hypocrisy of those who say they follow the Cross but in reality they follow their own misguided principles and pretensions. Why is this an issue ? Is’nt this the necessity of the Age of Reason in which religion like superstition in general needs to be cast out for the sake of mans progress to ascertain that which is more Divine? Is it that religion in a general sense has failed? Its failed to stop two world wars and the eugenics movement and looked the other way when society was colonized and segregated. In a word the “church” and the “world” made strange bed fellows for a time until people turned society upside down and rejected an imposed anglo colonial faith. I think religion in that sense has disqualified itself in the minds of people. For the simple fact it says what it is not.

 

[TheHem]

Sorry if I’m duplicating. I didn’t read all the threads but Fr Barron from Word On Fire,youtube.com/watch?v=TLta2b9zQ64&feature=player_embedded answers this quite eloquently

 

[TheHem]

Also Fr Pontifex does a cool job responding to the hate religion, love Jesus video

youtube.com/watch?v=TLta2b9zQ64&feature=player_embedded

 

[anrmenchaca74]

It is a largely held belief that is gaining currency today. The cliche that we don’t need a church or dogma to be able to be Christians. Though I believe this is how heresies start; without confines self sufficient beliefs go off on tangents, with a magisterium we our kept within the body.

I agree!!! There are those still who don’t believe in a magesterium to teach us…I’ve been answering objections,on youtube, towards a guy who slams the catholic faith and he always comes back to the notion that the Word of God, among other objections, is above the Pope…but what he fails to see is that the Pope, along with Bishops and Cardinals and such are THE interpreters of the Word of God…It’s very frustrating if not draining emotionally.

 

[hiinEnkelte]

Is’nt this the necessity of the Age of Reason in which religion like superstition in general needs to be cast out for the sake of mans progress to ascertain that which is more Divine? I/QUOTE]

So Evangelicals wield more/better Reason than the Catholic Church? So much in fact, that they have ascertained more knowledge of the Divine than their Catholic predecessors? Reason is a tool, which he maker of that video misused.

 

[hiinEnkelte]

Is’nt this the necessity of the Age of Reason in which religion like superstition in general needs to be cast out for the sake of mans progress to ascertain that which is more Divine? Is it that religion in a general sense has failed?

So Evangelicals wield more/better Reason than the Catholic Church? So much in fact, that they have ascertained more knowledge of the Divine than their Catholic predecessors? Reason is a tool, which he maker of that video misused.

 

[SteveGC]

Looking at the posts so far on this video. It makes me wonder why Roman Catholics are so concerned about the precieved content in the video. Ive watched this video several times . The video doesn’t mention the Roman Catholic Church , however he mentions the “church”. How does this effect you if your Roman Catholic, or Anglican or what have you? The young man in the video isnt attacking a particular religion. He uses religion in a general sense.

Not that I personally felt like he was referring to the Catholic Church, but it is reasonable for Catholics to presume it, because no other church in the world is targeted like the Catholic Church. Largely, this is due to the fact that the Catholic Church is purposefully the most visible, most historical, and most bold in it’s claim to being Jesus’ own. No other church comes even close to this, hence no other church members besides Catholics would reasonably believe that an attack or criticism is targeting their church.

Perhaps you come to this understanding that he is speaking of false piety and irreligion. The Hypocrisy of those who say they follow the Cross but in reality they follow their own misguided principles and pretensions.

This is certainly true of individual Catholics throughout history, but it does not define what the Church is. Hence, it is not a valid argument against religion.

Why is this an issue ? Is’nt this the necessity of the Age of Reason in which religion like superstition in general needs to be cast out for the sake of mans progress to ascertain that which is more Divine?

Man’s progress to ascertain the divine is found most fully inside the Catholic Church; that is Her purpose. The Divine created Her for that purpose. The “Age of Reason” was only “necessary” for those who rejected that purpose, could not see the sacred order of reason united to faith, and tragically pursued a divorce from the two.

Is it that religion in a general sense has failed? Its failed to stop two world wars and the eugenics movement and looked the other way when society was colonized and segregated. In a word the “church” and the “world” made strange bed fellows for a time until people turned society upside down and rejected an imposed anglo colonial faith.

The Church’s purpose is not to “stop wars”, although if the world properly followed Her teachings, many wars would not have occurred. Nor is it to “stop a movement”. The purpose is to lead all to Christ, and to help sinners become saints.

I think religion in that sense has disqualified itself in the minds of people. For the simple fact it says what it is not.

It has only “disqualified itself in the minds of people” who believe that individuals and their behavior define religion. And perhaps that’s plausible for a religion that is man-made. But those that see the true nature of the Christian religion, which is not man’s word about God, but God’s word about man, are not swayed by the behaviors of man. They see the Church for what it truly is, the Bride of Christ Himself, and their surest means of attaining salvation.

 

[LaSainte]

What people don’t GET, is that once the apostles etc. heard the gospel, sinning in and of itself became unthinkable. The gospel is not a license to sin. It is a call to STOP sinning, and when we fall, confession pulls us back from the abyss. It is a call to be better, to NOT SIN. None of us are perfect, but there are requirements when we DO fall from grace. This to me is the difference between Protestantism and Catholicism.