Answering Islam

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Schnitz

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Hi All!

I have recently really begun to question my Catholic faith (not doubt it, but rather seeking reasons for my faith) and I have been reading about Islam. This has brought some questions to my mind, which I pray those of you here who are smarter than me can answer:
  1. In Deuteronomy 18:18, how is it that Jesus is like Moses?
  2. Why does Jesus pray to the Father, if He is God?
  3. John 12: 44-46 Jesus says that He is sent. Muslims quote this as showing that He is only a Prophet. How does one answer them?
  4. What is the best way of explaining/viewing the Trinity? I.E. - How is it that God is indivisible, yet split in 3 persons? How is the Son eternally begotten of the Father?
  5. How is it that Jesus, who is God, became a mortal man? How does the infinite become the finite?
  6. If Jesus is God, how does He not know when the world will end (Mark 13:32)?
  7. If Jesus is divine, how is it that he is tempted in Mark 1:13, when James 1:13-15 states “God is not subject to temptation to evil?”
Please refrain from answering “it is a mystery” or “you should blindly accept it.” While I believe that there are things which cannot be explained, that doesn’t mean that we should dismiss everything as unexplainable. Surely we can open up our faith and have an intellectual dialogue about such issues. Thank you for taking your time, and helping me to find Truth.

PAX
 
Schnitz said:
Hi All!

I have recently really begun to question my Catholic faith (not doubt it, but rather seeking reasons for my faith) and I have been reading about Islam. This has brought some questions to my mind, which I pray those of you here who are smarter than me can answer:
  1. In Deuteronomy 18:18, how is it that Jesus is like Moses?
  2. Why does Jesus pray to the Father, if He is God?
  3. John 12: 44-46 Jesus says that He is sent. Muslims quote this as showing that He is only a Prophet. How does one answer them?
  4. What is the best way of explaining/viewing the Trinity? I.E. - How is it that God is indivisible, yet split in 3 persons? How is the Son eternally begotten of the Father?
  5. How is it that Jesus, who is God, became a mortal man? How does the infinite become the finite?
  6. If Jesus is God, how does He not know when the world will end (Mark 13:32)?
  7. If Jesus is divine, how is it that he is tempted in Mark 1:13, when James 1:13-15 states “God is not subject to temptation to evil?”
Please refrain from answering “it is a mystery” or “you should blindly accept it.” While I believe that there are things which cannot be explained, that doesn’t mean that we should dismiss everything as unexplainable. Surely we can open up our faith and have an intellectual dialogue about such issues. Thank you for taking your time, and helping me to find Truth.

PAX
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Before this becomes a red herring which Islam teachings do you subscribe to:
  • Faith can be taught by reason which is a means in arriving at truth
    or
  • Reason is only valid if founded on Faith?
 
Chancellare said:
Before this becomes a red herring which Islam teachings do you subscribe to:
  • Faith can be taught by reason which is a means in arriving at truth
    or
  • Reason is only valid if founded on Faith?
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I think this is obviously a red herring, or else our fellow Catholic never paid attention to anything he was taught as a Catholic. Many of his questions imply extreme ignorance of the doctrine of the Trinity.
 
jfallaw said:
I think this is obviously a red herring, or else our fellow Catholic never paid attention to anything he was taught as a Catholic. Many of his questions imply extreme ignorance of the doctrine of the Trinity.
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I don’t know, but he does sound genuine. But i believe he needs to take his own advice from this thread, in response to curtishouse29’s doubt in the existence of God:
[ Be straight-forward. If you disagree with him, tell him. Just have an open mind.
Also, if you would be comfortable with it, go talk to a priest. That is one of your greatest resources. He would be more than willing to listen and help you.
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](http://forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=266916&page=11)
 
Well it has been a long time since I have placed a response on this site.

Shnitz,
Your questions can really be summed up into these 2
  1. Does the human limitations seen in the NT prove that JC is not God
  2. Does the Trinity contradict the belief in one God
RESPONSES
1)
Philippians 2:5-8 NAB

“Have among yourselves the same attitude that is also yours in Christ Jesus, Who, though he was in the form of God, did not regard equality with God something to be grasped. Rather, he emptied himself, taking the form of a slave, coming in human likeness; and found human in appearance, he humbled himself, becoming obedient to death, even death on a cross.”
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Jesus lead by example and allowed himself to suffer what any other man or/and woman would have to suffer if they were to follow him. He is demonstrating that he is willing to walk the walk beside us. Showing that he not only understands our limitations as humans but he himself has experienced them himself. God can now turn to us and say “I went all the way and gave it 100% and so can you”. He is God so becoming human is not a problem … or what; being God does not cut it anymore? is more power required?
  1. Regarding the Trinity read Chapters 1 to 3 of Origen’s “De Priniciis” newadvent.org/fathers/04121.htm
    It is a bit long but very good explanation. However care has to be taken… we can never comprehend the essence of God. The Trinity cannot be know by reason alone it required God’s own relevation. The Scriptures attest to the revelation of the Divinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
As a final note I would suggest not to approach the validity of Catholicism against Islam by going verse by verse; it is a waste of time.
Remember, Islam’s whole premise for existing lies on their belief that Jesus’ message was in complete accordance with current muslim beliefs.His message however was lost and replaced by Christianity. It was then necessary for Allah to restore his original message by sending forth Muhammed.
The question you have to ask is … is there any historical validation of the claim that Jesus thaught Islam? Is there evidence that shows the transitions between Jesus’ followers believing muslim beliefs to then adopting Christian ones? Is there evidence of true followers of Jesus writing treatesies against these heretical movements calling followers to adhere to Jesus true muslim message? THE ANSWER TO ALL THESE IS NO THERE IS NO EVIDENE WHATSOEVER.

On the other hand we see that from the very begining Jesus was believed to be God although understandably it took time to be able to really grasp how the Word was equal/different to the Father and the same with the Holy Spirit.
John1:1 “In the beginning was the Word: and the Word was with God: and the Word was God.”
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St Ignatius of Antioch (50-98/117 AD
**Bishop of Antioch and disciple of St John the Apostle **
EPISTLE TO THE EPHESIANS
CHAPTER XIX.–THREE CELEBRATED MYSTERIES.
…God Himself being manifested in human form for the renewal of eternal life. And now that took a beginning which had been prepared by God. Henceforth all things were in a state of tumult, because He meditated the abolition of death.
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Could Jesus have been such a bad prophet that he couldn’t even get his own apostles to teach it right when they wrote the Gosples and appointed fellow bishops like St Ignatius? If the answer is yes … then why even hold him with honour as a prophet after screwing things up so badly. If the answer is NO he couldn’t have made such a blunder … then early Christian writings reflect Jesus’ true message including the message of his divinity.
Well hope this has helped

God bless

Alex
 
alexaustralia said:
Jesus lead by example and allowed himself to suffer what any other man or/and woman would have to suffer if they were to follow him. He is demonstrating that he is willing to walk the walk beside us. Showing that he not only understands our limitations as humans but he himself has experienced them himself. God can now turn to us and say “I went all the way and gave it 100% and so can you”. He is God so becoming human is not a problem … or what; being God does not cut it anymore? is more power required?
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That what my fellow Muslims couldn’t understand…
 
Sam_777 said:
That what my fellow Muslims couldn’t understand…
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that’s because Muhammad did not teach that “God so much loved the world”. Islam gives the impression that anything related to humanity is alien to Allah as if humanity is something shameful whereas the Bible teaches that God so much loves the world that He sent His Word as a human to console, love, save and give hope of good news. This love the Bible talks about is totally alien to Muhammad and i dare say deemed "unnecessary
" by Muslims who see God as a master who is beyond humanity he created that’s why you will find the word “love” so abundant in Christianity but not in Islam.
 
I cannot add one thing to the wonderful posts on here already.

I would say that the issue of Jesus being like Moses or is Muhammed like Moses is the most telling of the difference between Islam and Christianity.

Jesus had authority. Jesus worked wonders. Jesus was Priest, Prophet, and King. But, more than any of that, Jesus freed his people from the slavery of sin as Moses freed them from the slavery in Egypt.

The way Muhammed is compaired to Moses is only physical. It would be like saying both names start with M or that they both rode camels. None of that matters. ONly the spiritual is important.

Muhammed is no more like Moses than I am.
 
Salaam/peace
alexaustralia said:
… Showing that he not only understands our limitations as humans but he himself has experienced them himself. God can now turn to us and say "I went all the way …
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Concept of God in World Religions

by Dr. Zakir Naik

PHILOSOPHY OF ANTHROPOMORPHISM

Many religions at some point believe, directly or indirectly, in the philosophy of anthropomorphism i.e. God becoming a human.

Their contention is that Almighty God is so pure and holy that He is unaware of the hardships, shortcomings and feelings of human beings. In order to set the rules for human beings, He came down to earth as a human. This deceptive logic has fooled countless millions through the ages. Let us now analyze this argument and see if it stands to reason.

The Creator prepares the instruction manual:

Suppose I manufacture a video cassette recorder (VCR). Do I have to become a VCR to know what is good or what is bad for the VCR? What do I do?

I write an instruction manual: “In order to watch a video cassette, insert the cassette and press the play button. In order to stop, press the stop button. If you want to fast forward press the FF button. Do not drop it from a height or it will get damaged. Do not immerse it in water or it will get spoilt”. I write an instruction manual that lists the various do’s and don’ts for the machine.

Holy Qur’an is the instruction manual for the human being:

Similarly, our Lord and Creator Allah (swt) need not take human form to know what is good or bad for the human being. He chooses to reveal the instruction manual.

The last and final instruction manual of the human beings is the Glorious Qur’an. The ‘dos’ and ‘don’ts’ for the human beings are mentioned in the Qur’an.

saif_w.tripod.com/interfaith/general/god/inislam.htm
 
Muslim_Woman said:
Similarly, our Lord and Creator Allah (swt) need not take human form to know what is good or bad for the human being. He chooses to reveal the instruction manual.
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Naik is attacking a strawman since no one believes that the Word took flesh because otherwise humanity is not understood by God. The Father chose to reveal Himself in His Son, just as you believe Allah reveals himself in an uncreated and eternal Speech called Quran, because God so much loves the world.
 
Muslim Woman, would you have ANY understanding of Christianity at all were it not for your “Dr.” Naik? Through him, you have a wholly incorrect understanding of what Christianity actually teaches, because he himself clearly does not understand it (or he does and he just wants to lie for his own purposes; either way, I’m tired of seeing his little essays everytime you post). People are here who know what Christianity DOES teach because they follow it, and yet you listen to this Naik fellow and not those who live the faith. Why is that?

When I have asked questions about Islam, they have been based on what you and other Muslims here have said about your faith (by the way, there are several such questions in the “Ask about Islam” thread right now, if you would be so kind to respond to them). Why don’t you grant us the same curteousy and not bring in the ideas of people like this Dr. Naik character who obviously do not understand Christianity?
 
If i recall well, this “dr” says if you eat pig meat you behave like a pig…
 
Muslim_Woman said:
Suppose I manufacture a video cassette recorder (VCR). Do I have to become a VCR
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Hi “Muslim Woman” Thanks for your comments and Salaam/peace to you too.

I agree that God was of no need to be human for Him to relate to us. Rather, we needed Him to become human to fully appreciate the extent he wishes our salvation and releationship (a term that I understand is difficult for Muslims to understand). Through the whole of salvation history you can see mankind being used as part of the instrumentality by which God delivers his message and guidance.

God did not have a need to use either Moses or Muhammed to deliver his Laws but he still chose too. Why? because he wishes humanity to some extent be active participants in their salvation even though the merit of Grace is totally a free gift to us from God. So we can see God acts out of choice and not out of need, and he chose to be human for our sake ; not his.
Holy Qur’an is the instruction manual for the human being
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If the whole reason for God seeking to communicate with us is to make us aware of his laws and ordinances then your comment could carry some weight. However, Christianity goes beyond obedience due to God’s omnipotence as Creator. God’s omnibenevolence demands of us to establish a true relationship with Him. This is something God himself seeks due to his own love for us.

At the end the best any muslim apologetics could do is prove Christianity false. However this falsehood can only historically speaking be attributed to Jesus himself. This would then mean that Jesus was neither God nor a good prophet. So basically any muslim apologetics against Christianity is an attack against Islam as well… talk about a double edged sword!

God Bless

Alex
 
Salaam/peace
alexaustralia said:
…falsehood can only historically speaking be attributed to Jesus himself.
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no way 🙂

Jesus (p) nevet taught his followers about Trinity…he never uttered this word. He always taught God is only one , take no diety besides Him & My Father is greater than I. Bible, John 14:28
This would then mean that Jesus was neither God nor a good prophet.
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Jesus (p) was an obedient servant & blessed messenger of God.
 
Muslim Woman, while it is true that Jesus never used the word “trinity” (a word which does not occur in the Bible at all), it is not true that the concept is not there. If what you have said is true, then why did Jesus himself command his apostles to go forth and baptize all nations “in the name of the Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit”? (Matthew 28:19)

This is, NOT coincidentally, the exact trinitarian formula that has been passed down through the centuries in the Apostolic Churches (Catholic and Orthodox), and is in use today throughout the world by those Churches.
 
The idea of the trinity came down many years after Jesus. I believe they had a vote in the church… but im not sure.

It is like the idea of celibacy, it was never commanded by Jesus, but became like a culture or a social norm to the people.

InJesus stop trying to mock someone because of what they have to say about pig eating, eating swine is forbidden in the bible as well as in the quran my friend.

In Leviticus, chapter eleven, and in other parts of the Bible there are thoughts concerning pig-eating.

‘And the swine … he is unclean unto you. Of their flesh shall ye not eat, and their carcase shall ye not touch; they are unclean to you’.
 
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