Answering Luther on purgatory

[Catholic_Mike]

1. To wit: – “Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial.”

Can anyone answer this?

 

[Kotton]

1. To wit: – "Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there,

He is constantly emptying it just as sinners are filling it.

if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial."

This part shows an incomplete understanding of Purgatory. Prayers, fasting, etc. are the most common, but alms giving is most apopreate.

Can anyone answer this?

My simple effort, someone else may do it more justice.

Kotton

 

[contramundum7]

1. To wit: – “Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial.”

Can anyone answer this?

The pope can “empty Purgatory” to some extent through his prayers/alms-givings, etc., like everyone else can… but God is the one who uses our prayers to get souls out of Purgatory into Heaven. The more serious the sin & the more "dark’ the stain on the sinner’s soul, the longer he/she will be in Purgatory, generally speaking… Our prayers help, but only insofar as God (Jesus) chooses 2 apply them (At least, that’s my understanding from the books i have read, etc.).
Martin Luther, in my opinion, based on what i’ve read, was very arrogant, someone who had the audacity to attack the entire Church on account of a few (albeit important) imperfections… He made the mistake so many people do - of blaming (scapegoating) the Church for the sins of its members… I have been guilty of this 2 some extent, but i have been able to separate the two… I have to admit, it hasn’t always been easy. But to start a completely “new church”, especially when he was a priest and should have known better, well, i don’t know. It just seems very arrogant (egotistical…). And look at all the damage it has caused to the unity of Christianity… What a person believes is very important. I used to hold false beliefs and they kept me away from Christ and his Church… Of course, God had his ways of leading me back…

 

[Catholic_Mike]

So, Kotton, the Pope’s authority doesn’t allow him to do what Luther was imagining - just snap his fingers and allow everyone in purgatory into heaven? Then I wonder where Luther got the idea that the Pope claimed that power. Did popes in the past?

 

[rr1213]

1. To wit: – “Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial.”

Can anyone answer this?

I suppose that the answer depends on what, exactly, is within the Church’s power with respect to indulgencies and purgatory. When the Pope and the bishops of the Church are given power to bind and loose, to forgive and retain sins, does this include the power to reduce time to be spent in purgatory? If not, then Luther’s question is meaningless. If yes, then Luther’s question is a quite good one.

BTW, there is little in Luther’s 95 Theses that modern day Catholics should disagree with. Luther was attacking abuses of the system. I would encourage Catholics to read the Theses for themselves to see what is actually said there. It was later on his his ministry that Luther began to seriously depart from the teachings of the Catholic Church.

 

[scylla]

The only way this would be logical, would be to mis-represent Catholic belief. I am not sure if Luther was educated enough to know he was misrepresenting Catholic belief or he was just being dishonest.
The pope cannot just snap his fingers and release the souls from Purgatory, God is the one who releases the souls. We can pray and apply our prayers to people.
Our prayers if it is God’s will, help others as that is how God set it up. Just like Jesus prayed, and as an example didn’t just snap His fingers and have things happen.

I would agree that the abuses were legitimate issues at which to discuss, to use abuses to reject truth is wrong. This is akin to those people who don’t like Christians because they know bad Christians. They should look at the belief, not those who are not faithful to the belief.

In Christ
Scylla

 

[Zooey]

1. To wit: – “Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial.”

Can anyone answer this?

He said that??? Boy, he was having a bad day that day…
Look, Luther is famed for his hyperbole. He loved “playing to the cheap seats”, you know??
Honestly, when I read yet another quoataion from him, I have to wonder how on earth ***anybody ***sat through an entire sermon…Communication seems not to have been his chief talent.

 

[contramundum7]

I suppose that the answer depends on what, exactly, is within the Church’s power with respect to indulgencies and purgatory. When the Pope and the bishops of the Church are given power to bind and loose, to forgive and retain sins, does this include the power to reduce time to be spent in purgatory? If not, then Luther’s question is meaningless. If yes, then Luther’s question is a quite good one.

BTW, there is little in Luther’s 95 Theses that modern day Catholics should disagree with. Luther was attacking abuses of the system. I would encourage Catholics to read the Theses for themselves to see what is actually said there. It was later on his his ministry that Luther began to seriously depart from the teachings of the Catholic Church.

The Church ruled that about half of the Theses were in error… & so, they are still in error today… & forever.

 

[Proeliator]

I had the opportunity to sit in on a reformation Sunday sermon in a Lutheran church. What a Joy! I felt as though “they” were hailing Luther for saving Christianity. From what I gathered his life was threatened and he had to run for his life- taking on Goliath and winning (in there minds)! Quite frankly its ironic how they hail him but in an instant chide us for hailing Mary and the Saints! Pray for Christian Unity everywhere and especially in my own home! How awesome if we could add millions of living Lutherans praying for all souls in Purgatory, Catholic and Protestant alike!

 

[contramundum7]

1. To wit: – “Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial.”

Can anyone answer this?

i left a post already, but thought of something to add: I’ve had it happen that i would feel very beat up by the devil, lots of guilt, shame, despair even… Then i would enter a Catholic Church and the feelings would disappear immediately. To me, this is sort of a “snapping of the fingers”… While in the Church, i was (seemingly) freed from my sins… it certainly FELT like it… The only caution i have on saying this is that sometimes our feelings are not adequate interpreters of (absolute) reality… In other words, maybe if i had stayed longer, i would have (as i have many times in the past) felt many other things… Anyway, just a thought… (feeling).
God bless…

 

[contramundum7]

I had the opportunity to sit in on a reformation Sunday sermon in a Lutheran church. What a Joy! I felt as though “they” were hailing Luther for saving Christianity. From what I gathered his life was threatened and he had to run for his life- taking on Goliath and winning (in there minds)! Quite frankly its ironic how they hail him but in an instant chide us for hailing Mary and the Saints! Pray for Christian Unity everywhere and especially in my own home! How awesome if we could add millions of living Lutherans praying for all souls in Purgatory, Catholic and Protestant alike!

Hopefully you got the chance to tell them how wrong it is to glorify Luther?? I would have… In fact, i would be a little afraid to go to one of those things for fear of what i might end up saying…

 

[Vincent]

"God alone knows what penalty remains to be paid and what its precise amount is in severity and duration. Finally, **some indulgences are granted in behalf of the living only, while others may be applied in behalf of the souls departed. **

It should be noted, however, that the application has not the same significance in both cases.

The Church in granting an indulgence to the living exercises her jurisdiction; over the dead she has no jurisdiction and therefore makes the indulgence available for them by way of suffrage (per modum suffragii), i.e. she petitions God to accept these works of satisfaction and in consideration thereof to mitigate or shorten the sufferings of the souls in Purgatory."

Catholic Encylopedia, Indulgences
Emphasis and Paragraph spacing added for readability

Since the Church has no jurisdiction over the dead, the Pope is unable to “empty purgatory”. All he can really do for the faithful departed is to pray for them (and indulgences are one form of prayer), just like the rest of us.

 

[Tom]

1. To wit: – “Why does not the pope empty purgatory, for the sake of holy love and of the dire need of the souls that are there, if he redeems an infinite number of souls for the sake of miserable money with which to build a Church? The former reasons would be most just; the latter is most trivial.”
   Can anyone answer this?

The Pope does not simply decide what should be done, he is led by the Holy Spirit.
www.drbo.org:

John 14:16 And I will ask the Father, and he shall give you another Paraclete, that he may abide with you for ever. 17 The spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, nor knoweth him: but you shall know him; because he shall abide with you, and shall be in you.

www.drbo.org:

John 14:26 But the Paraclete, the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he will teach you all things, and bring all things to your mind, whatsoever I shall have said to you.

One of the problems with Luther was his misunderstanding of role of the Pope. The Church can only teach that which it is led to teach, it doesn’t “make up” its’ own teaching.

 

[seek]

I think we have to be careful when talking about time
in purgatory. I’m not quite certain if that applies to the
purification that takes place.

 

[Sir_Knight]

Since the Church has no jurisdiction over the dead, the Pope is unable to “empty purgatory”. All he can really do for the faithful departed is to pray for them (and indulgences are one form of prayer), just like the rest of us.

I thought that we could offer up plenatary indulgences for the dead. I recall the Mercy Sunday immediately after JPII passed away, I offered up any indulgences (full or partial) that I might have obtained for his soul.

Did they not go there?

 

[Vincent]

I thought that we could offer up plenatary indulgences for the dead.

As the liines that I put in bold type indicate, “. . .[the Church] makes the indulgence available for [the dead] by way of suffrage (per modum suffragii), i.e. she petitions God. . .”

 

[rr1213]

The Church ruled that about half of the Theses were in error… & so, they are still in error today… & forever.

Source?

 

[rr1213]

From what I gathered his life was threatened and he had to run for his life- taking on Goliath and winning (in there minds)! Quite frankly its ironic how they hail him but in an instant chide us for hailing Mary and the Saints!

His life was in danger…he failed to recant his writings and was pronounced an outlaw by the Holy Roman Emperor. If he had been caught by forces loyal to the Emperor and Pope, he would have been killed.

Also, there is a big difference between how Lutherans consider Luther and how Catholics consider Mary. For one thing, Lutherans know that Luther was but a man and that at times he sinned and at times he taught things that were in error. They also don’t pray to Luther.

 

[guanophore]

So, Kotton, the Pope’s authority doesn’t allow him to do what Luther was imagining - just snap his fingers and allow everyone in purgatory into heaven? Then I wonder where Luther got the idea that the Pope claimed that power. Did popes in the past?

I think Luther was reacting to the common practice of the time of selling indulgences. The monies collected from folks trying to redeem their loved one’s from purgatory were used to fill the church coffers.

 

[Proeliator]

Also, there is a big difference between how Lutherans consider Luther and how Catholics consider Mary. For one thing, Lutherans know that Luther was but a man and that at times he sinned and at times he taught things that were in error. They also don’t pray to Luther.

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“Luther was but a man…and at times he taught things that were in error”??? Is that what your faith says or another Lutheran faith? Who decided it was in error? You use Luther’s personal prayers. We use Saints personal prayers.