Answering Luther on purgatory

[rr1213]

Also, there is a big difference between how Lutherans consider Luther and how Catholics consider Mary. For one thing, Lutherans know that Luther was but a man and that at times he sinned and at times he taught things that were in error. They also don’t pray to Luther.

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“Luther was but a man…and at times he taught things that were in error”??? Is that what your faith says or another Lutheran faith? Who decided it was in error? You use Luther’s personal prayers. We use Saints personal prayers.

What’s your point? All I was saying is that Lutherans, and other Protestants for that matter, realize that everything that came out of Luther’s mouth was not gospel. The man erred, he sinned. Catholics contend that Mary did not sin.

 

[Cubsfan]

What’s your point? All I was saying is that Lutherans, and other Protestants for that matter, realize that everything that came out of Luther’s mouth was not gospel. The man erred, he sinned. Catholics contend that Mary did not sin.

And she did not sin. What is your point

 

[rr1213]

And she did not sin. What is your point

*Originally Posted by Proeliator
“Quite frankly its ironic how [Protestants] hail [Luther] but in an instant chide us for hailing Mary and the Saints!” *

Lutherans don’t even pretend to hail Luther in the way that Catholics hail Mary. To suggest that they do, as did Proeliator, is to misrepresent how Lutherans view Luther.

 

[Proeliator]

Lutherans don’t even pretend to hail Luther in the way that Catholics hail Mary. To suggest that they do, as did Proeliator, is to misrepresent how Lutherans view Luther.

Yeah, I must have been dreaming and not actually present at a Reformation service. Thanks for clearing it up!

 

[Nita]

is a quite good one.

BTW, there is little in Luther’s 95 Theses that modern day Catholics should disagree with. Luther was attacking abuses of the system. I would encourage Catholics to read the Theses for themselves to see what is actually said there. It was later on his his ministry that Luther began to seriously depart from the teachings of the Catholic Church.

That is what I originally thought from what I heard. Then I read Luther’s 95 Theses and knew it was about a lot more than abuses. He was proposing heretical views.

Nita

 

[Nita]

Since it was something like 20 years ago that I read Luther’s theses, decided I’d better read them again. You are right, there is a lot we would agree with. I guess I forgot those parts, and it was the other parts that stuck in my memory. Do wonder tho if the abuses were as bad and pervasive as he implies.

In #14 and 15, he seems to reject a state of purgatory after death, while in # 16 and 17 he seems to recognize them.

Won’t go into further analysis of the theses; that should have its own thread.

Nita

 

[rr1213]

Lutherans don’t even pretend to hail Luther in the way that Catholics hail Mary. To suggest that they do, as did Proeliator, is to misrepresent how Lutherans view Luther.

Yeah, I must have been dreaming and not actually present at a Reformation service. Thanks for clearing it up!

You’re welcome.

Seriously, Catholics complain all the time about how Protestants misunderstand the Catholic Church. You, likewise, are misunderstanding how Luther is considered in the Lutheran and other Protestant Churches.

 

[rr1213]

Since it was something like 20 years ago that I read Luther’s theses, decided I’d better read them again. You are right, there is a lot we would agree with. I guess I forgot those parts, and it was the other parts that stuck in my memory. Do wonder tho if the abuses were as bad and pervasive as he implies.

In #14 and 15, he seems to reject a state of purgatory after death, while in # 16 and 17 he seems to recognize them.

Won’t go into further analysis of the theses; that should have its own thread.

Nita

I think that later in his ministry, Luther did reject the concept of purgatory. If I am wrong on that, I’m sure that some learned Lutheran will correct me. Still, as you noted, Luther does not reject purgatory in the 95 Theses.

 

[Proeliator]

rr1213,
Unfortunately, you are right. Some Catholics do mis-understand Luther and Some Protestants do mis-understand the Catholic church. Until someone is completely open to the Holy Spirit and his promptings the “confusion”/“judgement” will go on.
God wants unity, not dis-unity amongst his children. I don’t quite understand why you are here on this web-site. Is it to learn more about the Catholic faith or to refute her teachings? If it is the later perhaps you should move on. A wise pastor/friend of a Lutheran church told me he never tries to steal sheep out of another fold. Perhaps we all can learn from that idea. Leave it to the Holy Spirit.

 

[rr1213]

rr1213,
Unfortunately, you are right. Some Catholics do mis-understand Luther and Some Protestants do mis-understand the Catholic church. Until someone is completely open to the Holy Spirit and his promptings the “confusion”/“judgement” will go on.
God wants unity, not dis-unity amongst his children. I don’t quite understand why you are here on this web-site. Is it to learn more about the Catholic faith or to refute her teachings? If it is the later perhaps you should move on. A wise pastor/friend of a Lutheran church told me he never tries to steal sheep out of another fold. Perhaps we all can learn from that idea. Leave it to the Holy Spirit.

Why are you on this web-site…to misstate Protestant viewpoints of Luther?

Frank yet charitable dialogue helps Christians of all persuasions to better understand each other. Sometimes this results in us becoming closer, at other times it results in a more accurate grasp of our differences. Both results are worth the effort.

 

[Proeliator]

Why are you on this web-site…to misstate Protestant viewpoints of Luther?

The answer to your question:NO.

Frank yet charitable dialogue helps Christians of all persuasions to better understand each other. Sometimes this results in us becoming closer, at other times it results in a more accurate grasp of our differences. Both results are worth the effort.

If done with charity! I thought I was being Frank in what I saw and experienced at the Reformation service. Perhaps I should have better phrased it to say that my experience included one particular Lutheran church. Now that would be more accurate and still truthful!

 

[Catholic_Mike]

You’re welcome.

Seriously, Catholics complain all the time about how Protestants misunderstand the Catholic Church. You, likewise, are misunderstanding how Luther is considered in the Lutheran and other Protestant Churches.

I see that there is a huge difference between the way Catholics view Mary and Protestants view Luther. But my guess is the charge that Protestants “hail” Luther is a pretty novel one… I’ve never heard it before, anyway. There is no question that many Protestants misunderstand Catholicism. The fact that Jack Chick actually had a career is mindblowing. I do wonder, though, if there are issues where Protestants often feel misunderstood? I suspect it might be a little less common since there is a wider variety of beliefs in Protestantism, and less emphesis in a lot of denominations on orthodoxy. By that I mean the line of thought that as long as you “X,Y,Z” then your theology doesn’t matter all that much.