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Gabika50
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His followers maintain he died when the jail was stormed however; so martyrdom is the official story.
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NeuroTypical
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Well, the historical record maintains Smith was killed by a mob while he was incarcerated in jail. It’s not like non-members have some different account of that record. There is some squibbling about who was in the mob, why and how the law stood aside (or participated), why he was incarcerated in the first place, and how “justified” the mob was in killing him. But I haven’t seen any serious arguing with the main facts.
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NeuroTypical
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Wait, what? You can’t be a martyr if you are defending yourself from those who seek your life?
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gazelam
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Lucky for all of us mere mortals John 17:22 addresses how the Father and the Son are one. The oneness is in purpose and unity, not numerically.
John 17:22 And I have given them the glory you gave me, so that they [Jesus’ disciples] may be one, as we are one
The Bible also shows a plethora of verses where many entities are referred to as “one”.
Mark 10:8 and the two shall become one flesh. So they are no longer two but one flesh.
! Corinthians 3: 8 Now he that planteth, and he that watereth, are one. And every man shall receive his own reward, according to his own labour.
Hebrews 2:11 For both he that sanctifieth, and they who are sanctified, are all of one. For which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren, saying:
I hope this helps…
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TechieGuy
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I don’t think they are all that worked up about not conforming to the ideas of classical philosophy.
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huck
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Which of these martyr definitions do you feel would apply to Smith?
a person who willingly suffers death rather than renounce his or her religion.
a person who is put to death or endures great suffering on behalf of any belief, principle, or cause:
(a martyr to the cause of social justice.)
a person who undergoes severe or constant suffering:
(a martyr to severe headaches.)
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NeuroTypical
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Absolutely #'s 1 and 2. Not really in question by anyone who has read through his life and the accounts at and before Carthage.
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huck
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It is part of the LDS belief system that JS died as a martyr, therefore, LDS members will naturally come to a conclusion that he died as a martyr. I wasn’t posing my question to anyone. In looking over the definitions for martyr and assuming you have some knowledge of the event at Carthage jail, do you think he died as a martyr? Let’s suppose I’m an Episcopalian and we were in the room with a mob outside and just before they barged in I jumped out the back window leaving you behind. Would you consider me to be a martyr.
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NeuroTypical
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I don’t understand the question. You provided the definitions, and the situation you present has you in none of those lights. You neither die, nor seem to undergo severe or constant suffering.
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Roguish
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Well said. Actually apotheosis of the individual is the final goal of all authentic religion, Catholicism being no exception. It is strange indeed that many Catholics resist this interpretation, which is the obvious and logical one.
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ascetic
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Galatians 1:8 would be a good starting point. I’ve never gone that far with them, though. Usually, I just tell them that I’m comfortably Catholic before I tell them (honestly) that I respect what they’re doing and acknowledge how hard it must be for them.
I did once tell a pair of them that I don’t agree with the idea of another gospel but delivered the candid line with charity and love.
What was interesting though, the last time they came to my door, was that I asked them to pray for me (I was having a BAD day) and it was as if I was speaking Greek to them. Not that I hold it against them. For one, they were just kids (I’m now old enough to call them kids
). For another, they may not have the same beliefs about intercessory prayer that we do. Either way, I believe that their hearts are in the right place regardless of anything else.
I did once tell a pair of them that I don’t agree with the idea of another gospel but delivered the candid line with charity and love.
What was interesting though, the last time they came to my door, was that I asked them to pray for me (I was having a BAD day) and it was as if I was speaking Greek to them. Not that I hold it against them. For one, they were just kids (I’m now old enough to call them kids
). For another, they may not have the same beliefs about intercessory prayer that we do. Either way, I believe that their hearts are in the right place regardless of anything else.
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gazelam
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Galatians 1:8 But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach [to you] a gospel other than the one that we preached to you, let that one be accursed!
A Latter-day Saint response (specifically mine) would be that we are taught the same Gospel as Jesus or Paul taught. And it’s the same Gospel referred to in Revelation 14:6.
And I saw another angel flying through the midst of heaven, having the eternal gospel, to preach unto them that sit upon the earth, and over every nation, and tribe, and tongue, and people
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Gabika50
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And in all probablility what the 12 year old Joe Smith saw in the forest when he had “a vision” which unleashed this arian religion.
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ascetic
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I’ve heard the Book of Mormon called another gospel, though. In fact, the pair of missionaries in my second paragraph even described it that way. I would like to clarify, though, that I do not consider LDS folks “accursed”. Pax Vobiscum. 
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lilypadrees
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Isn’t that the angel Mormons claim is Moroni?
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TOmNossor
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I find it MOST likely you misremembered or perhaps misheard. The Book of Mormon is subtitled, “Another Testament of Jesus Christ.” No member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would say it is “Another Gospel.”I’ve heard the Book of Mormon called another gospel, though. In fact, the pair of missionaries in my second paragraph even described it that way. I would like to clarify, though, that I do not consider LDS folks “accursed”. Pax Vobiscum.
The adversary is capable of whispering into the ears of those who the Missionaries are teaching. This “whispering” is a tool to hide the truth.
Fortunately, you can look at the subtitle of the Book of Mormon and uncover this error.
Charity, TOm
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TOmNossor
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I have answered either 3 of these 4 or 4 of these 4 in about 8-10 pages of word documents.
These are VERY poor arguments IMO. They misrepresent the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints frequently, condemn the Catholic Church occasionally, and are generally of poor quality. I could probably find the Word documents if ANYONE would like me to send them. Alternatively, you may pick an issue you think is particularly vexing for the CoJCoLDS from the documents and ask about it here and I will hopefully be able to answer.
Charity, TOm
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twf
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The saints are gods by grace, not by nature. That’s the important distinction.
We call them saints, and Our Lady the Queen of Saints, rather than “gods” or “goddesses” to avoid misunderstandings. Human beings who, by grace, have become “like God”.
We call them saints, and Our Lady the Queen of Saints, rather than “gods” or “goddesses” to avoid misunderstandings. Human beings who, by grace, have become “like God”.
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gazelam
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Some of the arguments presented in these tracts are just absurd. The tract Problems with the Book of Mormon | Catholic Answers | Catholic Answers actually claims that the Book of Mormon is incorrect because it mentions bees in Ether 2:3 and “everybody knows” bees were introduced in the New World by the Spanish Conquistadors.
The Book of Mormon contains accounts of more than one group that was lead by God from the Old World to the New World. Ether 2:3 involves the Old World portion of the account. There is no mentioned in the Book of Mormon of the travelers bringing bees with them across the sea. It just seems odd that CAF would be so sloppy in its apologetics and ask some poor Catholic Bishop to put his seal of approval on the tract.
For more information about bees and beehives in the New World see: Scriptural Mormonism: Bees and Beehives among the Ancient Maya
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