Since such visions are private revelation and not part of the deposit of faith, it is perfectly acceptable to hold such a position.Numerous Saints have had visions of Hell, and they always saw many human souls there, as well as fallen angels. To hold that no one goes to Hell, one would have to hold that all these many Saints did not have true visions from God.
Not necessarily. Even if a vision is truly from God, it might not be actually true per say. It isn’t like God can reveal himself fully to our human minds, so he has to give us what is best for our salvation, and it is very possible that these things could be false but God reveals them to us because it brings us closer to salvation.Numerous Saints have had visions of Hell, and they always saw many human souls there, as well as fallen angels. To hold that no one goes to Hell, one would have to hold that all these many Saints did not have true visions from God.
Good points. Turning to the first paragraph… is anyone really claiming that being eternally damned is the most compassionate action for that particular person?
- When in heaven our hearts and minds will know the fullness of God’s grace. Our flawed understanding of things will not exist. We will not be troubled by anything. Does anyone really think that they could be more loving and just than God? That we could somehow be more compassionate, more fair, etc. than God? I don’t know what will happen but I do know that whatever God does is far, far better than anything I could come up with. God created us, he knows our needs better than we do. Don’t think that in heaven anyone will ever lack anything, it simply isn’t possible.
- I do think that there are people who think they know better than God how things should be. They let God know exactly what their will is. They say My will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Well God loves us so much that he allows us to have our will. There is a name for the place we create with our idea of paradise. God will not allow us to force our will on others though so he separates us from everyone. The place we create is called Hell.
This statement works, if we’re talking about someone whose choices were clearly between hell and heaven. What about an atheist who for whatever reason is sent to hell? He could not haven chosen to go to hell, because he didn’t believe in it. The only people I can see really choosing hell are those who believe firmly in Catholic faith and commit mortal sins without any intention to repent, and fully believing that these unrepented sins will cause their damnation. I would wager there is not a single person for whom this is true. All Catholics, for example, who commit mortal sins without confessing them either don’t believe the sins are mortal, don’t believe that unconfessed mortal sins result in their damnation, or just never thought about it. Either way, none of these people made a conscious decision to choose hell. They were intellectually lazy, or irrational, or what have you, but these acts are far from a voluntary decision of hell over heaven.@OP
There will always be many things about Hell which the human mind cannot fully understand. The Judgments of God are inscrutable, His ways undiscoverable~Rom 11:33. Yet we can at least understand that all is one in God. He is Justice, and He is Mercy. The two attributes cannot be at variance with one another. Each finds its infinite perfection in Him “who will have all men to be saved, and to come to the knowledge of the truth”~1 Tim 2:4.
God because He is Goodness itself, rewards the good and punishes the evil. St. Thomas Aquinas therefore says that Hell glorifies the justice and goodness of God. He made men free to love Him; He does everything possible to win their love; throughout life He peruses them with His graces; and He only condemns them when they KNOWINGLY and WILLFULLY turn against Him and die as His enemies. Can we honestly blame Him for that? To maintain that He is always bound to forgive His creatures, no matter how wickedly they turn against Him, is to make God helpless in the face of their sin. If they knew they were always certain of ultimate forgiveness, men who did not love God would have no motive at all to make them leave their evil ways. AS IT IS, THOSE WHO GO TO HELL ONLY DO SO BECAUSE THEY CHOOSE TO GO THERE. THEY PUT THEMSELVES IN HELL. THEY HAVE NEVER ASKED FOR MERCY, AND THEY NEVER WILL. THEY ARE FIXED IN EVIL FOR EVER.~~This is the Faith chpt 35 page 385
As we can see the people who go to hell are not sent there by God but by themselves. God only gives them what they wanted. If you want a life without God then you choose an eternity without Him as well. Now where is there reason to be sad for such individuals if (and I say if because I am a horrible sinner who merits hell) I’m in heaven? They were sent to where they wanted to go, and God in His justice gave them what they wanted. The punishment is perfect and so in Heaven I will not be sad for those who never wanted Gods mercy and in turn would not want mine a
Ok, let’s get the terminology straight. The very definition of Hell is being separate from God. That’s it.This statement works, if we’re talking about someone whose choices were clearly between hell and heaven. What about an atheist who for whatever reason is sent to hell? He could not haven chosen to go to hell, because he didn’t believe in it. The only people I can see really choosing hell are those who believe firmly in Catholic faith and commit mortal sins without any intention to repent, and fully believing that these unrepented sins will cause their damnation. I would wager there is not a single person for whom this is true. All Catholics, for example, who commit mortal sins without confessing them either don’t believe the sins are mortal, don’t believe that unconfessed mortal sins result in their damnation, or just never thought about it. Either way, none of these people made a conscious decision to choose hell. They were intellectually lazy, or irrational, or what have you, but these acts are far from a voluntary decision of hell over heaven.
That said, I don’t debate the possibility of someone voluntarily and freely choosing hell, fully understanding the consequences. But I assert this is so rare the vast majority of us do not.
It sounds like Hell would be heaven to those who are stuck there.The souls in Hell do not want to look upon the face of God! They want nothing to do with God! If they were released from their punishment they would only go back to doing their Will and loving themselves in their own Hearts! It is Good that they stay in Hell for all eternity.
Actually, you’ve got it right…to a point.It sounds like Hell would be heaven to those who are stuck there.
You’ve just said that those in hell want nothing to do with God and they’ve found a place where God chooses to stay out of…hell.
For those in hell, wouldn’t that be their heaven, as they’re getting exactly what they desire?
Nope. In fact, there is some Catholic folklore that says St. Michael the Archangel will appear to the person at their moment of death to offer them one last chance at repentance. One can only hope and think that most people would seriously say “I repent,” if such a story is true.Does any Catholic teaching conflict with the concept of a person receiving one last chance to repent at (not after) death?
Do you mean like a deathbed repentance? Most people are not there mentally enough to do this.Does any Catholic teaching conflict with the concept of a person receiving one last chance to repent at (not after) death?
As far as we are aware they aren’t mentally aware enough to do such.Do you mean like a deathbed repentance? Most people are not there mentally enough to do this.
There’s too many sins not to commit some - but I’ll try not to anyway.
There’s too many people to help them all - but I’ll try to help them anyway.
There’s too many virtues to attain them all - but I’ll try to attain them anyway.
The core of Christian teaching is “Love God: Be Kind”. In my philosophy, by doing the second, the first becomes either irrelevant, or an inescapable consequence.Perfection is impossible - But I’ll try to perfect everything anyway.
That is a Buddhist tale of one of the Boddhisatvas - Buddhist Saints - who volunteer to forego Heaven while there are those who still need help. Miao Shian is an avatar of Guan Yin/Kannon , Boddhisatva of Compassion. The similarity with the Christian tale is obvious, though there’s the whole “Son of God” thing there as well. Something I do not believe.Miao Shan, realising the fate the executioner would meet at her father’s hand should she fail to let herself die, forgave the executioner for attempting to kill her. It is said that she voluntarily took on the massive karmic guilt the executioner generated for killing her, thus leaving him guiltless. It is because of this that she descended into the Hell-like realms. While there she witnessed firsthand the suffering and horrors beings there must endure and was overwhelmed with grief. Filled with compassion, she released all the good karma she had accumulated through her many lifetimes, thus freeing many suffering souls back into Heaven and Earth. In the process that Hell-like realm became a paradise. It is said that Yanluo, King of Hell, sent her back to Earth to prevent the utter destruction of his realm, and that upon her return she appeared on Fragrant Mountain.
God does not propogate falsehoods.Not necessarily. Even if a vision is truly from God, it might not be actually true per say. It isn’t like God can reveal himself fully to our human minds, so he has to give us what is best for our salvation, and it is very possible that these things could be false but God reveals them to us because it brings us closer to salvation.
Good, that was my understanding, but I was never certain if it accurately reflected Catholic theology. I like the idea of that folklore.Nope. In fact, there is some Catholic folklore that says St. Michael the Archangel will appear to the person at their moment of death to offer them one last chance at repentance. One can only hope and think that most people would seriously say “I repent,” if such a story is true.
OK, Why would a loving God inflict himself upon someone that does not want anything to do with him?These are some of the reasons I don’t believe in hell, or the devil for that matter. Theologically, it doesn’t really link up with a kind and loving God. I don’t really see how eternal damnation (especially when some people on this board would say masturbating and then getting hit by a bus without confessing would land you in hell for eternity) is really a just punishment for ANYTHING. Even Hitler or people that were just pure evil are like that because of their upbringing (as you said) and their delusions about how the world really works. I just don’t think that any sin or amount of sin is worthy of eternal damnation…unless God is not as loving, forgiving, and good as people say that He is. That is my opinion at least.