Answering Problems about Hell

[oksoitworked]

What I am saying is that no crime in this world could ever be bad enough to spend eternity in unthinkable pain. That ISN’T just IMO. I have a son. He could do the worst things imaginable, but I would NEVER EVER want him to spend eternity suffering. But God is more loving than me, right? So how does that work?

This is what I read from Frank Sheed’s “Theology and Sanity.” Basically, it’s the difference between mugging some random person and mugging the President of some country. There is huge difference in dignity between the Office of President and some white-collar Joe Schmoe. Thus, the punishment meted out, as well as the newspaper coverage will be different in magnitude.

Now think about God, who is infinite in all respects, including his dignity. If you mortally sin against an infinite God, you infinitely offend Him, and the only punishment that is fair and just is one that is infinite. There is absolutely no way a finite creature like you or me could ever repay for an infinite dignity offended infinitely.

 

[Yorkshireman]

Who exactly said anything about “The flames of hell were just a tradition?”

How about arguing what is actually written rather then what you wish was written.

I am quite certain the fires of hell are real. And I am certain many willingly walk right into it.

And I would appreciate people not trying to put words in my mouth.

Well when you said, “That is what hell is…the absence of God,” I assumed from that you saw hell, as many do these days, as separation from God.

For you it’s absence of God + flames.

 

[Zatzat]

This is what I read from Frank Sheed’s “Theology and Sanity.” Basically, it’s the difference between mugging some random person and mugging the President of some country. There is huge difference in dignity between the Office of President and some white-collar Joe Schmoe. Thus, the punishment meted out, as well as the newspaper coverage will be different in magnitude.

Now think about God, who is infinite in all respects, including his dignity. If you mortally sin against an infinite God, you infinitely offend Him, and the only punishment that is fair and just is one that is infinite. There is absolutely no way a finite creature like you or me could ever repay for an infinite dignity offended infinitely.

Sounds like an infinitely delicate ego, followed by an infinitely long grudge…

 

[curlycool89]

Sounds like an infinitely delicate ego, followed by an infinitely long grudge…

:banghead:

You aren’t getting this. Hell is not a vengeful God throwing people into it. Hell is separation from God. When you sin you separate yourself from God by your actions. It is your fault. If you die separate from God then you go to hell because you are separated from God. By your actions. The onus is on you, not God.

It’s really not that hard to understand. It’s not rocket science or fluid mechanics or something that’s actually hard.

 

[Zatzat]

:banghead:

You aren’t getting this. Hell is not a vengeful God throwing people into it. Hell is separation from God. When you sin you separate yourself from God by your actions. It is your fault. If you die separate from God then you go to hell because you are separated from God. By your actions. The onus is on you, not God.

It’s really not that hard to understand. It’s not rocket science or fluid mechanics or something that’s actually hard.

If it’s my choice, then I’ll just choose to hang out in heaven or hell, depending on my mood. Ifr I can’t make that choice, it doesn’t seem like much of a choice now does it.

When I choose to go on vacation, I don’t stay in the same vacation spot for the rest of my life…heaven / hell should be the same way, if it’s really a choice.

 

[curlycool89]

If it’s my choice, then I’ll just choose to hang out in heaven or hell, depending on my mood. Ifr I can’t make that choice, it doesn’t seem like much of a choice now does it.

Ok, I needed to define choice better. You choose by your actions. When you sin, you choose to reject God and separate yourself from God. Once that happens, you can’t just spontaneously “repair” the separation, you need to take another action (first comes Catholic Guilt™, then prayer for forgiveness, then the sacrament of Penance) which reconciles you to God.

Once you have separated yourself from God, you have taken away the choice to be in communion with God. It is only through seeking forgiveness from God through the sacraments that we can be reconciled. It is only through God’s grace that we can be reconciled. It’s the story of the prodigal’s son; God is ready and willing to forgive us (even though we really don’t deserve it), but we need to act first because we are the ones who have caused the separation.

 

[Zatzat]

God is ready and willing to forgive us (even though we really don’t deserve it).

If God is real, he made me knowing 100% how my life would turn out and play out. If he doesn’t want to forgive me for not believing in him, even though he knew I wouldn’t believe in him when he made me, that’s his problem and loss.

 

[curlycool89]

If God is real, he made me knowing 100% how my life would turn out and play out. If he doesn’t want to forgive me for not believing in him, even though he knew I wouldn’t believe in him when he made me, that’s his problem and loss.

Well, I guess we’ll just pray that you’ll come to see the truth.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

What I am saying is that no crime in this world could ever be bad enough to spend eternity in unthinkable pain. That ISN’T just IMO.

There certainly are such crimes. I would go so far as to say that if you cannot comprehend of what could possibly be so offensive not only to God but also to mankind then it is the fault of your own insensitivity to others’ pain.

There are horrific crimes. Some of these crimes against the innocent are ones that I have heard described just one time and have been troubled by the thought of for years later, and so I make a conscious effort to not think of them.

What confuses you is that think hell is some sort of cosmic time out or spanking. It is no such thing. If you were having surgery to remove a cancer that was causing you to experience pain so intense that morphine cannot completely relieve it, would you want your surgeon to give your cancer a spanking, and then let it come back later?

Hell is where evil resides. Those who are in hell are no longer alive and have no humanity left in them. They are more like cancer than like people.

I have a son. He could do the worst things imaginable, but I would NEVER EVER want him to spend eternity suffering. But God is more loving than me, right? So how does that work?

The intensity of your love would also cause you to create a permanent and uncrossable chasm between anything that would destroy your son’s life and your son. You would go to that great length to protect your son. You would create a place called hell where things that could destroy your son’s life would not threaten your son.

You would say to your son, become like me, don’t *become * destruction.

Death is a transformation where some fruit has been borne. At issue is what the soul has become in its final state.

I personally have a lot of room in my own interpretation of purgatory for the majority of people to experience some form of purgatory, even if they are not Catholic, before they get to that final state.

 

[JAW642]

In a related thread I asked if Catholic theology allowed for an empty hell.
At any rate, I would love intelligent responses. Thanks!—

---

From : JAW642 on 04/19/2010

To : camerong

I have the same thoughts and reservations as you do. It is hard for me to imagine, that ANY human being can do ANYTHING that would warrant or require ETERNAL damnation and suffering in Hell. After all, that would be a pretty long time !

Even considering the case of Adolf Hitler, being responsible for the deaths of 6,000,000 Jews. Even if Hitler had to suffer in Hell for all the years that he took away from the Jews, it still would not the quake to ETERNITY. Assuming a lifetime of 100 years each, for 6,000,000 Jews, would equal 600,000,000 years. And probably a good Jewish lawyer might be able to get his sentence reduced to only 500,000,000 ( or half of a billion ) years! I know I am being a little facetious hear. ]. I believe it is Estimated that the Universe (or maybe it’s the Earth) is between 13 and 14 billion years old. Surely, half of a billion years is still a long time, but at least it is not Forever or ETERNITY.

I sincerely hope, that the only people who God puts into Hell, are the people who do not want to be in Heaven. However, I cannot imagine anyone choosing Hell over Heaven, if they have full knowledge of the difference between the two places or states.

---

For quite a long time in the history of the Church, there was this ‘commandment’, created not by God, but by the Catholic Church, that said, if a Catholic deliberately ate meat on any Friday, then God would have to put him into Hell for all Eternity, because it was supposedly gravely offensive to God, and therefore a mortal sin.

I wonder if there are any people in Hell for all Eternity, due to this unnecessary and nonsensical ruling of the Catholic Church?

I feel the Catholic Church should have simply Suggested and Encouraged all Catholics to refrain from eating meat on Fridays, WITHOUT forcing God to put them into Hell, if they did not obey this ruling created by the Catholic Church.

---

I am a male, and therefore I have a particular interest in what the Catholic Church wants the faithful to believe in reference to the seriousness of, or the punishment related to Masturbation.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ( CCC-2352 )
2352: By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. ‘Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.’ ‘The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.’ For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of ‘the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved’."

The Catholic Church wants the faithful to believe, that God will put 14 year old teen boys, ( along with all other single or married males ), into Hell for all Eternity, because they Masturbate.

And here is the most ironic part for me.

The Catholic Church insists that a male does NOT even have to Ejaculate.

Therefore, if a young male lies in bed at night, and deliberately strokes his erect penis for 15 or 20 minutes before he falls asleep, and then gets killed by a car the next morning, according to Catholic teachings, we are required to believe that God will put this young male into Hell for all Eternity, because he would be guilty of ONE mortal sin.

I wonder how many teen boys and young males are actually in Hell, because the Catholic Church has determined that a boy playing with his erect penis, merits ETERNAL damnation in Hell?

Certainly, neither God the Father, nor Jesus Christ has ever said this about masturbation.

How mindless and ignoring does the Catholic Church believe we are? Why can’t the Catholic Church simply allow us to make up our own minds, in prayerful conjunction with God, to decide for ourselves, the seriousness of what males do with their penis?

If the Catholic Church really does not believe, that there are young males in Hell for masturbating, and for merely playing with an erection, then why doesn’t the Church rewrite CCC-2352?

If the Catholic Church still really does believe this, then what a terrible picture of God, this paints for us.

If God actually does this sort of thing, as the Catholic Church requires Catholics to believe, how can we ever view God, or believe in God, as a Just God?

How could we ever believe that God would ever impose the same punishment on Adolf Hitler AND on a teen boy, who plays and strokes his erect penis, ( even if he does Ejaculate ) ? ? Would the actions of BOTH Adolf Hitler AND this teen boy, be equally gravely offensive to God, and therefore would necessarily require the same punishment ( damnation in Hell for all of ETERNITY ) ?

Or is the Catholic Church simply wrong, at least on this issue, of what acts really deserve Hell, and what acts do not deserve Hell?

I want to believe in a Loving and Merciful God, who will NOT put anyone into Hell, ( at least not for all eternity ), who does not voluntarily choose to be there.

Why won’t the Catholic Church believe in that same Loving and Merciful God, or if they choose not to believe in Him, then at least the church should allow the faithful to believe in Him the way we see fit?

From JAW642 on 04/19/2010

---

 

[curlycool89]

How could we ever believe that God would ever impose the same punishment on Adolf Hitler AND on a teen boy, who plays and strokes his erect penis, ( even if he does Ejaculate ) ? ? Would the actions of BOTH Adolf Hitler AND this teen boy, be equally gravely offensive to God, and therefore would necessarily require the same punishment ( damnation in Hell for all of ETERNITY ) ?

I’m getting really, really, really sick of having to repeat myself because people don’t seem to read the other replies. So, I’ll just quote myself.

You aren’t getting this. Hell is not a vengeful God throwing people into it. Hell is separation from God. When you sin you separate yourself from God by your actions. It is your fault. If you die separate from God then you go to hell because you are separated from God. By your actions. The onus is on you, not God.

It’s really not that hard to understand. It’s not rocket science or fluid mechanics or something that’s actually hard.

Ok, I needed to define choice better. You choose by your actions. When you sin, you choose to reject God and separate yourself from God. Once that happens, you can’t just spontaneously “repair” the separation, you need to take another action (first comes Catholic Guilt™, then prayer for forgiveness, then the sacrament of Penance) which reconciles you to God.

Once you have separated yourself from God, you have taken away the choice to be in communion with God. It is only through seeking forgiveness from God through the sacraments that we can be reconciled. It is only through God’s grace that we can be reconciled. It’s the story of the prodigal’s son; God is ready and willing to forgive us (even though we really don’t deserve it), but we need to act first because we are the ones who have caused the separation.

Comprende?

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Comprende?

No, they don’t, and won’t, as long as they keep insisting that hell is punishment that God inflicts on others, and using that logic, even if you tortured to death 6 million people the sheer mathematics of eternity should dictate some sort of reprisal at some point in time. (Think of the insensitivity of that point of view. Well, I’ll kill you, and I might suffer, but I’ll finish my suffering, and then my punishment will end. But I don’t have to actually change and instead of kill you love you.)

It has nothing to do with punishment/reward. It is about who you are and what you put into your belly, and thus become, so to speak, in your final state. God gave the Hebrews meat because they were tired of Manna and they died. Meat for the belly, and the belly for meat, but in the end destruction. Contrast that with feasting on the Lord- and the sign of the coming Eucharist in the Manna. You feed on what is eternal and you become eternal. You feed on what will die and you die.

 

[hellopeople]

This is what I read from Frank Sheed’s “Theology and Sanity.” Basically, it’s the difference between mugging some random person and mugging the President of some country. There is huge difference in dignity between the Office of President and some white-collar Joe Schmoe. Thus, the punishment meted out, as well as the newspaper coverage will be different in magnitude.

Now think about God, who is infinite in all respects, including his dignity. If you mortally sin against an infinite God, you infinitely offend Him, and the only punishment that is fair and just is one that is infinite. There is absolutely no way a finite creature like you or me could ever repay for an infinite dignity offended infinitely.

This view makes God seem petty and someone that doesn’t forgive. You offend ME!!! Eternal damnation!!!

Does that sound like Jesus to you?

 

[hellopeople]

:banghead:

You aren’t getting this. Hell is not a vengeful God throwing people into it. Hell is separation from God. When you sin you separate yourself from God by your actions. It is your fault. If you die separate from God then you go to hell because you are separated from God. By your actions. The onus is on you, not God.

It’s really not that hard to understand. It’s not rocket science or fluid mechanics or something that’s actually hard.

When God is described as more compassionate than you can imagine, it IS hard to imagine actually. Especially because God has yet to reveal an authoritative rule book on how to avoid hell. You could say it is the Bible, but I can find a billion people that would say it is the koran. So what has he really revealed? All we can do is speculate on which revelation is true, or maybe none of them are true.

It is like a country where laws are not posted, and some people think that laws don’t even exist and they are just a myth, but if you break a law and get caught you get sent to jail for life. Does that seem fair to you?

 

[hellopeople]

There certainly are such crimes. I would go so far as to say that if you cannot comprehend of what could possibly be so offensive not only to God but also to mankind then it is the fault of your own insensitivity to others’ pain.

There are horrific crimes. Some of these crimes against the innocent are ones that I have heard described just one time and have been troubled by the thought of for years later, and so I make a conscious effort to not think of them.

What confuses you is that think hell is some sort of cosmic time out or spanking. It is no such thing. If you were having surgery to remove a cancer that was causing you to experience pain so intense that morphine cannot completely relieve it, would you want your surgeon to give your cancer a spanking, and then let it come back later?

Hell is where evil resides. Those who are in hell are no longer alive and have no humanity left in them. They are more like cancer than like people.

Are the people in hell really all that evil though? Apparently if I have sex with my wife while using a condom, knowing that it is a grave matter according to the church, and understanding that it is wrong, and then get hit by a bus, I would be in hell according to the cathechism. Hmmm, seems a little bit excessive, doesn’t it?

 

[hellopeople]

I’m getting really, really, really sick of having to repeat myself because people don’t seem to read the other replies. So, I’ll just quote myself.

Comprende?

So that 14 year old boy chose hell in your opinion because he died before he went to confession. If he got hit by a bus on the way to confession, he would be in hell, but if he got hit by a bus on the way back from confession, he would go to heaven. Yes, makes perfect sense.

 

[curlycool89]

Are the people in hell really all that evil though? Apparently if I have sex with my wife while using a condom, knowing that it is a grave matter according to the church, and understanding that it is wrong, and then get hit by a bus, I would be in hell according to the cathechism. Hmmm, seems a little bit excessive, doesn’t it?

Do I really need to…? sigh Ok, flow chart?

Use condom → not properly ordered in sexuality → sin → separate self from God → die → you’re separated from God so you can’t enter into Heaven → hell

 

[hellopeople]

Do I really need to…? sigh Ok, flow chart?

Use condom → not properly ordered in sexuality → sin → separate self from God → die → you’re separated from God so you can’t enter into Heaven → hell

OK, I understand your flow chart, but I also understand that a God that would do that is not compassionate. We ALL SIN. That is a fact. But just one sin sends someone to hell? How is that compassionate. How does this flow chart link up with the gospels? How does it link up with the letters of Paul. IT DOESN’T. If God followed this flow chart, Jesus would have thrown the first stone at the adulteress.

 

[curlycool89]

OK, I understand your flow chart, but I also understand that a God that would do that is not compassionate. We ALL SIN. That is a fact. But just one sin sends someone to hell? How is that compassionate. How does this flow chart link up with the gospels? How does it link up with the letters of Paul. IT DOESN’T. If God followed this flow chart, Jesus would have thrown the first stone at the adulteress.

Yes. Just one sin separates you from God.

God is compassionate, and He is willing to forgive all your sins (though we don’t deserve it), which is why Christ gave us the sacrament of Reconciliation. This is what has been revealed to us through the Church.

Ok, there’s also a complicated part. We trust that God is merciful with things that are not in our control. If you’re in a state of mortal sin and don’t care and get run over, then you’re probably in trouble. If you’re on the way to confession and get run over, then I think we’d trust in God’s mercy in that case.

 

[Zatzat]

Ok, there’s also a complicated part. We trust that God is merciful with things that are not in our control. If you’re in a state of mortal sin and don’t care and get run over, then you’re probably in trouble. If you’re on the way to confession and get run over, then I think we’d trust in God’s mercy in that case.

That’s what I call a technicality.