Answering Problems about Hell

[curlycool89]

That’s what I call a technicality.

It’s complicated. We believe that the first paragraph is the truth. The second is a really big maybe (like the folklore surrounding the idea that St. Michael will ask you at death to repent). The first is part of the deposit of faith, the second is not.

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Are the people in hell really all that evil though? Apparently if I have sex with my wife while using a condom, knowing that it is a grave matter according to the church, and understanding that it is wrong, and then get hit by a bus, I would be in hell according to the cathechism. Hmmm, seems a little bit excessive, doesn’t it?

Yes!! It isn’t hard to see evil in the world that deserves hell. Turn on the TV and watch the latest story about a toddler beaten to death by its stepfather. That kind of story alone has become blase to people, and it’s a tame story when you consider all the evil ever done in the world.

If you can appreciate that there is evil, and evil deserves hell, then you can also appreciate purgatory. I have an expanded theology of Purgatory. Heaven or hell represents the soul’s final state, when either all of the life has been extinguished, or all attachment to sin has been purged. Purgatory is not the final state, and some people have thought of Purgatory of being closer to Earth and this life and having varied types of experiences.

My RCIA director used the example of a movie- and I think it was the 5 people you meet in heaven, (but I’m not positive) as an example of this concept of Purgatory.

Your example- you knowingly disobey the Church’s teaching on contraception. In spirit form, your actions are judged by their spiritual intention. Everything is stripped away and God sees your heart. Were you selfish when you used a condom? Were you failing to exercise self control? Or were you unable to follow Church teaching because you feared for your wife’s well being and health if she were to become pregnant, and your compassion for her drove your actions? Say it’s the first case. In Purgatory, you get to experience the full weight of being selfish. Your soul will repent and be purged of its attachment to selfishness if you have a basic love and attachment to God. But whether that love for God is really there will be revealed in a very naked way in Purgatory.

For some, they may not appear to be any worse then a typical small sinner, and their only offense is using a condom on the outside, but God can see the inside, and what they truly are. There are some of those who when they are stripped away of everything have chosen hell.

 

[JAW642]

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From : JAW642 on 04/22/2010

Primarily To : curlycool89, but I would be interested in other replies as well.

Curlycool89, I saw your flow chart and I thought it was very clever. It was clear, concise and understandable.

If I read you correctly, you are saying the onus or responsibility for a person’s separating himself from God, is totally on himself, and that God, (or the Catholic Church), has nothing to do with it.

But could one pose an argument, that since it is God, (or the Catholic Church), that decides in the first place, what constitutes mortal sin, then to that extent, there is a ‘God’ factor or a ‘Catholic Church’ factor in this culpability equation?

If the Catholic Church only suggested or encouraged, but never Forced its members to refrain from eating meat on Fridays under the pain of mortal sin, then surely no one would be able to separate himself from God, by eating meat on Friday.
I agree that after a rule is made, even if it is not Required by God, then the Primary responsibility for keeping or breaking the rule is on the person performing the action.

Curlycool89, do you believe that there is physical and / or emotional suffering and torment in Hell, or is Hell solely eternal separation from God, without any other suffering?

Please respond to this scenario on the Masturbation issue. I will assume that you are a male, and that you have one or more sons.

Around the age that your son reaches puberty, you tell you wife to instruct your son that you unconditionally forbid him to ever play with his penis, get it hard, or Ejaculate, until he is married. The only time he is to touch his penis, is when he urinates or when he washes it. Your son is told that if you ever directly see him breaking this rule, you will not give him the opportunity to apologize, and you will never have anything to do with him again.

One day when your son is 14 years old, you walk unexpectedly into his bedroom, after he just took a bath, and you catch him lying on his bed naked and stroking his erect penis.

You tell your son that unfortunately, he has decided to break your rule, and therefore, you have no choice, but to never see him or have anything to do with him ever again.

Your son immediately starts pleading with you, saying that he really does love you, and that he has always been a good and obedient son to you in all other ways.
Dad, can’t you see how hard it is for me, at my age with my strong sexual urges, to Never pay any attention to my penis? I still love you, and I really do not want to offend you, but at times I simply cannot keep my hands off my penis.

You then answer your son, “ I’m sorry son, but since you have decided to break my rule, there’s nothing I can do for you now. I see it’s hard, but if you want to play you have to pay”.

Finally, you tell your son to get up off his bed, put on some clothes, and leave your home, now!

Curlycool89, or anyone else:

Would you ever say or do anything like this to your own son?
Would you ever expect your son to be successful in obeying this harsh rule of yours?
Do you think your son would still love you, and consider you a Just and Loving father?
Would any human father ever knowingly and willfully put their son into a situation like this one?
Would any human father ever establish such an extremely severe rule like this, with such an extremely harsh punishment?

I think it is pretty safe to say that the proper answer to all five questions is NO.

How can we believe that our Divine Father would Require something like this, that no human father would ever require or expect of his own son?

If your son at any age, ended up in Hell for merely playing with his penis, as the Catholic Church teaches, would you still believe that God is a Just God?

If God was willing to grant you only one wish after you died, would you NOT say to God, “God, I know my son has played with his penis at least one time, but could you please let my son into Heaven, anyway.”

Do you think that God is Forced or OBLIGATED to classify a male playing with his penis or ejaculating, as an intrinsically and gravely disordered action, and therefore mortal sin? OR, do you think that God has the Right and the Power, to categorize these actions as either NO sin or venial sin?

Maybe God gave males the physical ability to Masturbate, to satisfy our strong sexual urges in the many years between puberty and marriage, so that we are less likely to pursue actual sexual intercourse outside of marriage.

Why didn’t God or Jesus, Himself tell us directly that Masturbation is a mortal sin?
Why does the Magisterium rely on the moral sense of the Faithful, to determine or conclude that Masturbation is a mortal sin?
Isn’t the moral sense of the Faithful, always going to be what the Magisterium says it Must be? If it is different, then it will automatically become NOT the moral sense of the ‘Faithful’.

Have you ever separated yourself from God by stroking your erect penis, even though you felt that it was a mortal sin?
If you have done this, was your intention to grievously offend God and separate yourself from Him, or were you simply trying to make your body feel good?
Do you believe that any normal male can make it through life without ever touching his penis, and as a result, grievously offend God?

If God allowed you to be ‘God for a Year’, would you stick with the morality of Masturbation and Ejaculation, that is currently taught by the Catholic Church?
OR, would you change the morality from mortal sin, down to either NO sin or venial sin, at least for all single males?

Please don’t take the easy way out, and say that you are not God, and you will never be God, so therefore, you cannot guess at what you might do.

From JAW642 on 04/22/2010

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[curlycool89]

But could one pose an argument, that since it is God, (or the Catholic Church), that decides in the first place, what constitutes mortal sin, then to that extent, there is a ‘God’ factor or a ‘Catholic Church’ factor in this culpability equation?

If the Catholic Church only suggested or encouraged, but never Forced its members to refrain from eating meat on Fridays under the pain of mortal sin, then surely no one would be able to separate himself from God, by eating meat on Friday.

Most things are part of natural law (example - murder). God gets to dictate natural and moral law by virtue of being God. Call it a perk of being the creator of the universe. There’s also the idea that it’s meant to bring us to happiness. Sin often times goes hand in hand with suffering, and that means more than just Catholic guilt (look at the OT, Israel sins, they get crushed by another nation).

Some things are more positive law though, like the abstention from meat on Fridays in Lent. You do have to do a little more digging into reason than just the surface though. The idea of abstaining from meat on Fridays is connected the Passion of Christ on Fridays, and we are giving up something to unite ourselves with Christ. The choice of meat does have a reason (meat was only eaten in the old times at feasts and such, so as a celebratory food it was natural to be something to fast from), but in all honesty the more important part is the “giving up”, not the “meat”.

If you want, just extend the flow chart backwards a little. The Church was given the power of binding and loosing by Jesus. Disobeying the Church is to reject the authority of Jesus to do so, and Jesus being God it ultimately means disobeying God.

Curlycool89, do you believe that there is physical and / or emotional suffering and torment in Hell, or is Hell solely eternal separation from God, without any other suffering?

Given the New Testament imagery of hell, there seems to be some form of suffering. Whether the suffering is due to the separation from God or some other factor (like literal flames and torture), I don’t know.

Please respond to this scenario on the Masturbation issue. I will assume that you are a male, and that you have one or more sons.

I have to agree with some people who a while ago said that this forum is waaay too obsessed with masturbation. In any case yes I am a male, but single.

You tell your son that unfortunately, he has decided to break your rule, and therefore, you have no choice, but to never see him or have anything to do with him ever again.

Your son immediately starts pleading with you, saying that he really does love you, and that he has always been a good and obedient son to you in all other ways.
Dad, can’t you see how hard it is for me, at my age with my strong sexual urges, to Never pay any attention to my penis? I still love you, and I really do not want to offend you, but at times I simply cannot keep my hands off my penis.

You then answer your son, “ I’m sorry son, but since you have decided to break my rule, there’s nothing I can do for you now. I see it’s hard, but if you want to play you have to pay”.

Finally, you tell your son to get up off his bed, put on some clothes, and leave your home, now!

You’ve gone back to the “God damns people to hell for sin” idea.

See, the analogy doesn’t work. The right analogy for sin is that you tell your son not to commit it, and he leaves the house because he wants to anyways. That is sin. You leave God. Only holy people can stand with God. If you want to do something not holy (sin), you have to leave God first.

Also, in the analogy, God will be standing at the front door waiting for you to come back.

How can we believe that our Divine Father would Require something like this, that no human father would ever require or expect of his own son?

Because God expects us to be perfect. God puts up a high bar. When we fall (because we’re imperfect), Christ gave us the Sacrament of Reconciliation for the forgiveness of our sins. It has nothing to do with “can’t”. It has everything to do with “should”.

If your son at any age, ended up in Hell for merely playing with his penis, as the Catholic Church teaches, would you still believe that God is a Just God?

God can’t do anything about it. If someone chooses to reject God, God doesn’t force them to take Him back. It’s called Free Will. “Just” doesn’t mean “pushover”.

 

[curlycool89]

continued…

If God was willing to grant you only one wish after you died, would you NOT say to God, “God, I know my son has played with his penis at least one time, but could you please let my son into Heaven, anyway.”

You could, but it’s not possible in any case. In Heaven we say you’ll be eternally happy. You’ll come to understand. You see this question asked a lot, and none of us have the answer.

Do you think that God is Forced or OBLIGATED to classify a male playing with his penis or ejaculating, as an intrinsically and gravely disordered action, and therefore mortal sin? OR, do you think that God has the Right and the Power, to categorize these actions as either NO sin or venial sin?

Now, you need a little background on that part of the Catechism. “Ordered” refers to sexual activity between a husband and a wife in a valid marriage. Anything else is disordered. This is part of natural law.

Therefore masturbation is intrinsically and gravely disordered.

Why didn’t God or Jesus, Himself tell us directly that Masturbation is a mortal sin?
Why does the Magisterium rely on the moral sense of the Faithful, to determine or conclude that Masturbation is a mortal sin?
Isn’t the moral sense of the Faithful, always going to be what the Magisterium says it Must be? If it is different, then it will automatically become NOT the moral sense of the ‘Faithful’.

The Ordinary and Universal Magisterium is protected by the Holy Spirit and therefore cannot teach wrongly on faith and morals.

Have you ever separated yourself from God by stroking your erect penis, even though you felt that it was a mortal sin?
If you have done this, was your intention to grievously offend God and separate yourself from Him, or were you simply trying to make your body feel good?

I’m not going to answer the question. But I’ll comment on the second part. The goal of life is not to “make your body feel good”. That’s a secular hedonistic ideal of everything for myself.

Do you believe that any normal male can make it through life without ever touching his penis, and as a result, grievously offend God?

Yes. Anything can be done through Christ, who gives us strength (cf Phil 4:13).

If God allowed you to be ‘God for a Year’, would you stick with the morality of Masturbation and Ejaculation, that is currently taught by the Catholic Church?
OR, would you change the morality from mortal sin, down to either NO sin or venial sin, at least for all single males?

C’mon, appealing to our pity? That’s just sad.

I have to say that your entire argument has been a big pile of fluff. There’s nothing theological about it, just a bunch of appeals to base emotions. It’s like a politician just strolled in; all fluff, no substance. Theology is discussed with substance, not fluff. It doesn’t matter how many what ifs you come up with, the answer doesn’t change.

God makes the laws, not me. I love God and don’t question His laws, because I love God. He’s a great guy. You should really get to know Him better.

 

[alongexpected]

Ok, let’s get the terminology straight. The very definition of Hell is being separate from God. That’s it.

Now people who have committed a mortal sin have separated themselves from God. Why? Because by committing the sin they have rejected God and therefore separated themselves from Him. By their own choice. You choose sin, you choose to reject God, you choose to separate yourself from God. They all go together. It’s like an evil special package deal. The choice for hell is implicit from the moment you reject God.

Going back to the first point, if you die while being separate from God then you cannot enter into God’s presence (which is Heaven), nor can you be purified (purgatory) because you’ve rejected God and separated yourself from Him. Therefore, you go to hell. That’s the short and the long of it.

Unconfessed/unrepentant mortal sins simply mean you don’t care enough about God to reconcile yourself to Him. It’s like you continue to reject God. Hell is a reality for those who are separated from God at death, simply because hell is eternal separation from God. That is the chief punishment of hell (see CCC #1035).

But, again, what about the person who is lazy ONE TIME, skips Mass, and suddenly dies? They’re totally screwed? That doesn’t seem right to me. Or logical, or likely.

 

[alongexpected]

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From : JAW642 on 04/19/2010

To : camerong

I have the same thoughts and reservations as you do. It is hard for me to imagine, that ANY human being can do ANYTHING that would warrant or require ETERNAL damnation and suffering in Hell. After all, that would be a pretty long time !

Even considering the case of Adolf Hitler, being responsible for the deaths of 6,000,000 Jews. Even if Hitler had to suffer in Hell for all the years that he took away from the Jews, it still would not the quake to ETERNITY. Assuming a lifetime of 100 years each, for 6,000,000 Jews, would equal 600,000,000 years. And probably a good Jewish lawyer might be able to get his sentence reduced to only 500,000,000 ( or half of a billion ) years! I know I am being a little facetious hear. ]. I believe it is Estimated that the Universe (or maybe it’s the Earth) is between 13 and 14 billion years old. Surely, half of a billion years is still a long time, but at least it is not Forever or ETERNITY.

I sincerely hope, that the only people who God puts into Hell, are the people who do not want to be in Heaven. However, I cannot imagine anyone choosing Hell over Heaven, if they have full knowledge of the difference between the two places or states.

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For quite a long time in the history of the Church, there was this ‘commandment’, created not by God, but by the Catholic Church, that said, if a Catholic deliberately ate meat on any Friday, then God would have to put him into Hell for all Eternity, because it was supposedly gravely offensive to God, and therefore a mortal sin.

I wonder if there are any people in Hell for all Eternity, due to this unnecessary and nonsensical ruling of the Catholic Church?

I feel the Catholic Church should have simply Suggested and Encouraged all Catholics to refrain from eating meat on Fridays, WITHOUT forcing God to put them into Hell, if they did not obey this ruling created by the Catholic Church.

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I am a male, and therefore I have a particular interest in what the Catholic Church wants the faithful to believe in reference to the seriousness of, or the punishment related to Masturbation.

CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH ( CCC-2352 )
2352: By masturbation is to be understood the deliberate stimulation of the genital organs in order to derive sexual pleasure. ‘Both the Magisterium of the Church, in the course of a constant tradition, and the moral sense of the faithful have been in no doubt and have firmly maintained that masturbation is an intrinsically and gravely disordered action.’ ‘The deliberate use of the sexual faculty, for whatever reason, outside of marriage is essentially contrary to its purpose.’ For here sexual pleasure is sought outside of ‘the sexual relationship which is demanded by the moral order and in which the total meaning of mutual self-giving and human procreation in the context of true love is achieved’."

The Catholic Church wants the faithful to believe, that God will put 14 year old teen boys, ( along with all other single or married males ), into Hell for all Eternity, because they Masturbate.

And here is the most ironic part for me.

The Catholic Church insists that a male does NOT even have to Ejaculate.

Therefore, if a young male lies in bed at night, and deliberately strokes his erect penis for 15 or 20 minutes before he falls asleep, and then gets killed by a car the next morning, according to Catholic teachings, we are required to believe that God will put this young male into Hell for all Eternity, because he would be guilty of ONE mortal sin.

I wonder how many teen boys and young males are actually in Hell, because the Catholic Church has determined that a boy playing with his erect penis, merits ETERNAL damnation in Hell?

Certainly, neither God the Father, nor Jesus Christ has ever said this about masturbation.

How mindless and ignoring does the Catholic Church believe we are? Why can’t the Catholic Church simply allow us to make up our own minds, in prayerful conjunction with God, to decide for ourselves, the seriousness of what males do with their penis?

If the Catholic Church really does not believe, that there are young males in Hell for masturbating, and for merely playing with an erection, then why doesn’t the Church rewrite CCC-2352?

If the Catholic Church still really does believe this, then what a terrible picture of God, this paints for us.

If God actually does this sort of thing, as the Catholic Church requires Catholics to believe, how can we ever view God, or believe in God, as a Just God?

How could we ever believe that God would ever impose the same punishment on Adolf Hitler AND on a teen boy, who plays and strokes his erect penis, ( even if he does Ejaculate ) ? ? Would the actions of BOTH Adolf Hitler AND this teen boy, be equally gravely offensive to God, and therefore would necessarily require the same punishment ( damnation in Hell for all of ETERNITY ) ?

Or is the Catholic Church simply wrong, at least on this issue, of what acts really deserve Hell, and what acts do not deserve Hell?

I want to believe in a Loving and Merciful God, who will NOT put anyone into Hell, ( at least not for all eternity ), who does not voluntarily choose to be there.

Why won’t the Catholic Church believe in that same Loving and Merciful God, or if they choose not to believe in Him, then at least the church should allow the faithful to believe in Him the way we see fit?

From JAW642 on 04/19/2010

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Amen.

 

[curlycool89]

But, again, what about the person who is lazy ONE TIME, skips Mass, and suddenly dies? They’re totally screwed? That doesn’t seem right to me. Or logical, or likely.

Does it really matter how many times? What if you only murdered one time? Or only raped one time?

If you’ve skipped Mass one time, then you’ve said to God “I’ve got better things to do and you’re not important”. What does that say about you’re relationship with God? Again, God’s not going to force you to accept Him (that whole free will thing). You’ve got to make use of the time you have now. You don’t get another chance at life, so ultimately don’t screw this one up.

 

[alongexpected]

Does it really matter how many times? What if you only murdered one time? Or only raped one time?

If you’ve skipped Mass one time, then you’ve said to God “I’ve got better things to do and you’re not important”. What does that say about you’re relationship with God? Again, God’s not going to force you to accept Him (that whole free will thing). You’ve got to make use of the time you have now. You don’t get another chance at life, so ultimately don’t screw this one up.

Calm voice…

You are equating murder with masturbation. Does that make ANY SENSE whatsoever?!?!

Let me ask you something, and to all other defenders of this ridiculous doctrine…Have you ever committed a mortal sin? (Maybe you honestly haven’t) But let’s assume you have. I’ll take a guess (judging from your posts) that you’re living a pretty pious life now. Mortal-sin free. But let’s go back to that ONE that you committed, oh, 20 years ago. And then imagine that you died suddenly right after it. You just earned yourself a Hell-sentence. Would you be ok with that? Would you agree that you really deserved Hell?

 

[curlycool89]

Let me ask you something, and to all other defenders of this ridiculous doctrine…Have you ever committed a mortal sin? (Maybe you honestly haven’t) But let’s assume you have.

Oh I don’t have to assume. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. I wasn’t easy to get rid of either.

I’ll take a guess (judging from your posts) that you’re living a pretty pious life now. Mortal-sin free.

Well, you know. I try my best.
I still need God though. Like the last time I went to confession. Let’s say hypothetically that it was this past Tuesday.

But let’s go back to that ONE that you committed, oh, 20 years ago. And then imagine that you died suddenly right after it. You just earned yourself a Hell-sentence. Would you be ok with that? Would you agree that you really deserved Hell?

I know we’re not suppose to judge others, but I’m pretty sure I should be fine if I stick to judging my past self.

Yes. Yes I did. I didn’t care about God. I didn’t give Him the time of day. There was no way I in any way deserved to go to Heaven, except for God’s free offering of it, which I constantly refused by pushing Him away.

Now I say “God, I want to do what you expect of me”, and I let that guide my life. If something’s a sin then I’m not going to do that because not only is it an offense against God, but I’m also selling myself short of where I should be. Of where God wants me to be.

 

[TedDC]

Now, you need a little background on that part of the Catechism. “Ordered” refers to sexual activity between a husband and a wife in a valid marriage. Anything else is disordered. This is part of natural law.

It’s part of the Catholic Church’s interpretation of natural law. The Church loves to cite “Natural Law” as if it were a single, unambiguous, universally understood set of rules, rather than a philosophical approach which can legitimately lead to various conclusions.

In the case of masturbation, it’s certainly a reasonable interpretation of natural law to say that the sexual facility has “procreative and unitive” purposes as the Church asserts. But it’s much less clear that those are its only purposes, as the Church goes on to claim. Nature does not make masturbation mutually exclusive with procreative and unitive sex.

 

[curlycool89]

It’s part of the Catholic Church’s interpretation of natural law. The Church loves to cite “Natural Law” as if it were a single, unambiguous, universally understood set of rules, rather than a philosophical approach which can legitimately lead to various conclusions.

It’s the Church’s job. You know, that part about being infallible when it comes to faith and morals. Christ gave that authority to the Church, and logically there’s no use giving that authority if it’s not going to be backstopped by the Spirit.

In the case of masturbation, it’s certainly a reasonable interpretation of natural law to say that the sexual facility has “procreative and unitive” purposes as the Church asserts. But it’s much less clear that those are its only purposes, as the Church goes on to claim. Nature does not make masturbation mutually exclusive with procreative and unitive sex.

Yep, because a guy masturbating can still have a child as the outcome. No wait, that’s not right…

 

[TedDC]

It’s the Church’s job. You know, that part about being infallible when it comes to faith and morals. Christ gave that authority to the Church, and logically there’s no use giving that authority if it’s not going to be backstopped by the Spirit.

A fine example of circular reasoning.

Yep, because a guy masturbating can still have a child as the outcome. No wait, that’s not right…

There’s no “natural law” that says every use of the sexual facility must result in reproduction. Masturbation does not preclude subsequent reproductive activity.

As an analogy, our ability to eat and drink has an obvious natural purpose in providing us with needed nutrition. But we can also eat and drink for pure pleasure; as long as it’s done in moderation, it does not preclude our doing so for nutritive purposes at another time.

 

[curlycool89]

There’s no “natural law” that says every use of the sexual facility must result in reproduction. Masturbation does not preclude subsequent reproductive activity.

And yet masturbation itself still has no reproductive ends in itself.

As an analogy, our ability to eat and drink has an obvious natural purpose in providing us with needed nutrition. But we can also eat and drink for pure pleasure; as long as it’s done in moderation, it does not preclude our doing so for nutritive purposes at another time.

No. Eating is not the same as sexual activity. Sexual activity is inherently ordered towards reproductive purposes as an ends. So says natural law.

Sexual theology is not really my forte. I’ve just never been interested in it, and the simple explanation is good enough for me (and in all honesty I’ve got better things to do than debate with God over sexual ethics). If you really want a good and full explanation then I’d suggest Christopher West’s Theology of the Body (based on JPII’s Theology of the Body). I haven’t read it myself, but I know some people who’ve gone through it (along with lots of people on this site) and they all say it’s really great.

And no offense, but as a fallen-away Catholic I don’t expect you to understand. When you’ve already rebelled against the Church there’s nothing to stop you rebelling against everything else. In the end, the consent to accept God’s laws is going to have to come from within yourself. I can’t make you accept them, but you do need to know that you’re still bound by them.

 

[PJM]

Sory about editing your post, but space limits required this action.

My friend, your wrong becasue you lack a proper understanding of God’s unchangeable Nature and the fact that all of humanity is Blesed with the Spiritual Gifts of a Mind, a Freewill, and a Intellect; which are so powerful and unique that no two people in the history of the WORLD, are identical.

What does this FACT have to do with God’s Nature.

***Because of awesome power of these Gifts that even God can’t ovrerride, becaue from the begining of time,that was and remains God’s will. He who all-wise, all-knowing, and all-perfect GRANTED HUMANITY these spieirtual gifts for a very precise purpose.

And that purpose to because in all of the CREATED Universe; only man can and has the ability to freely choose*** to return God’s love, with love. To give back to God Divne Worship, Praise and Thanksgiving. BUT IT IS A FREEWILL decision to do so.

Our Eternal Salvation rest on how our lives reflect our freewill decisions to give bck to God wht God freely gives to us.

Isa. 43: 21 **" The people whom I have formed for Myself **that they MIGHT declare My PRAISE!"

Also see: 1 Chr. 16:25; Ps.47:6,7; Isa.43:7, Rom. 14:11, Heb.13:15, and 1 Pet. 1: 7

Part II … God’s Unchangeable Will.

Anyone that has knowledge of the Old Testament is aware that the mindset of the early Hebrew Nation, was a TRUE, literal “fear of the Lord.” And with good reason to do so. Because God time and time again inflicted severe punishments on them. Even destruction of The Temple of Solomon! Death, savery, exile were common punishment.

WHY

Because it is easy to focus on God’s Love, Mercy, Forgiveness, and get so carried away by these that one ignores that God is God! BUT GOD BY GOD’S VERY NATURE, IN AN ABSOLUTE SENSE MUST ALSO BE FAIR AND JUST.

2 Chr. 19: “Now then, let fear of the Lord be apon you; take heed what you do, for there is no perversion of JUSTICE with the Lord our God, or partaility, or taking bribes.”

Ps.145: The Lord is Just in all His way’s"

**Isa. 61: 8 **“For I the LORD love JUSTICE”

God CREATED Heaven Hell and Purgatory because in Divine Justice they are necessary.

**Matt.7: 13 **"Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads **to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. ** [14] **For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few. **

Your not understanding God’s Will and trying to impose you’r view is not going to change how God will Judge; because God has no choice but to be fair and just.

1. I cannot imagine a person would deserve eternal suffering. And when I try to conjure such a person up in my mind, much of their badness results from factors outside of their control, such as a poor upbringing or natural temperament.

GOD MUST again because of His Divine Nature OFFER everyone sufficient grace to accept salvation. BUT as Mt. 7 [above attest] many more freely choose hell instead of the hard, difficult road.

** 1John.1 Verses 8 to 10:** "If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just, and will forgive our sins and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us."

** 1John.5 Verses 16 to 17**"If any one sees his brother committing what is not a mortal sin, he will ask, and God will give him life for those whose sin is not mortal. There is sin which is mortal; I do not say that one is to pray for that. All wrongdoing is sin, **but there is sin which is not mortal. **

** John.20 Verses 20 to 23**]" When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.** Jesus said to them **again, “Peace be with you. **As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” **And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained.”

Love and prayers,
Pat

 

[JAW642]

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From : JAW642 on 04/23/2010

To : curlycool89,

Thanks, Curlycool89, for your quick and honest Reply # 79. I believe you are a good guy, and you stick to what you believe in. And that is very commendable.

From your reply, it seems as though you are not bothered by the strong sexual urges that most males have to contend with. At the risk of getting too personal, have you ever in the course of your lifetime experienced strong sexual urges? Also, have you ever been married, and what is your current age or age range?

I guess it would be a lot easier for me, if I had the unquestioning confidence in the Catholic Church that you do. I bet you have never questioned any ruling of the Catholic Church.

Believe it or not, the only really big issue that I have with the Catholic Church, is its stance on the Masturbation issue in CCC-2352, and in other Church regulations and rulings, which are most probably irrelevant as far as God is concerned.

Case in point, the Lenten regulations stating people between 14 and 59 must fast, and people 60 and over do not have to. The Catholic Church does not portray these things as guidelines, suggestions, or encouragements, but rather as hard and fast rules, which if not obeyed, create sin. I bet it is really not all that important to God.

Like many other Posters on this web site, I know it seems like I am fixated on this Masturbation issue, but it is only because I am !

As for CCC-2352, I simply cannot believe that a Just God would cause a young male to separate himself from God, simply by playing with his penis, and not even ejaculating !

I cannot understand or comprehend how you can honestly believe this, and at the same time, believe that God is still a Just God. In my mind, the two beliefs cannot coexist at the same time.

Quote from curlycool89 in Reply # 87:
It’s the Church’s job. You know, that part about being infallible when it comes to faith and morals. Christ gave that authority to the Church, and logically there’s no use giving that authority if it’s not going to be backstopped by the Spirit. ]

In other words, your quote means that the Holy Spirit reveals God’s Will to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, and in turn, the Magisterium issues the rules for the faithful to follow. Therefore, EVERY rule of the Catholic Church, must be followed.
I hope I got that right.

I think we can agree that God’s Will, is or should be Unchanging.

Now here is the part that is difficult for me to understand.

Question # 1:
At one point in history, God was NOT grievously offended by the faithful eating meat on Fridays.
Then at another point in history, the Holy Spirit reveals to the Magisterium, that God will now be grievously offended if the faithful willingly and deliberately eats meat on Fridays.
Then later on, (I believe after Vatican I I), the Holy Spirit reveals again to the Magisterium, that God has now changed His Mind again, and He will stop being grievously offended by the faithful eating meat on Fridays.

How do we explain this? Does God simply change His Mind about certain behaviors at different times in history?

Question # 2:
At one time, the Holy Spirit told the Catholic Church, that willfully missing Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin.
Then the Holy Spirit told the Catholic Church, that not attending Mass on Sunday is NOT a mortal sin, as long as one attends Mass on Saturday, AFTER 4:00 PM. If one attends Mass on Saturday BEFORE 4:00 PM, then God MUST still count this as a mortal sin, and the person will separate himself from God. And if he dies, then God MUST banish him to the eternal damnation in Hell.

I cannot help myself from wondering:
Is it really a matter of God telling the Magisterium and the faithful, what to think and do?
OR, is it a matter of the Magisterium telling God and the faithful, what to think and do?

From JAW642 on 04/23/2010

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[curlycool89]

From your reply, it seems as though you are not bothered by the strong sexual urges that most males have to contend with. At the risk of getting too personal, have you ever in the course of your lifetime experienced strong sexual urges?

Like I said, I don’t really want to get into personals. But anyone can tell just by the amount of times this topic comes up that it’s not an insignificant issue. It’s a struggle for many people, especially in our culture that as an unofficial policy looks down on people who aren’t having sex and especially looks down on people who utter the word “abstinence”. Prayer is the answer. Turn to God with your problems and ask for His help. A little conscience effort is always good too.

Case in point, the Lenten regulations stating people between 14 and 59 must fast, and people 60 and over do not have to. The Catholic Church does not portray these things as guidelines, suggestions, or encouragements, but rather as hard and fast rules, which if not obeyed, create sin. I bet it is really not all that important to God.

Like I said above, people focus too much on the part about fasting. The point is not to teach you how malnutrition works (heck, poverty activists should really propose that as a day). The point is to give up something, to give something back to God. The only 2 days of real fasting (as opposed to not eating meat) are Ash Wednesday and Good Friday. Both of these days are fast days to remind us of the reasons. Ash Wednesday to remind us of Lent (the season of penance, fasting, and almsgiving), and Good Friday of course reminds us of the Passion of our Lord Jesus Christ. The “14-59” may seem arbitrary, but I think that’s just an acknowledgment that people below 14 are not really mature enough to get it, and many people over 60 would have issues if they were to fast all day (some in either category could do it still though). The fast also doesn’t apply if you have health issues (like under the care of a doctor, or for women who are pregnant) because again the idea is to give something up, not to harm you. One day of fasting shouldn’t do much harm to the majority of people.

In other words, your quote means that the Holy Spirit reveals God’s Will to the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, and in turn, the Magisterium issues the rules for the faithful to follow. Therefore, EVERY rule of the Catholic Church, must be followed.
I hope I got that right.

Every dogma and doctrine. The practices are open to debate though. For example, it’s perfectly all right to hold the position that the Church should return to the practice of ordaining married men (that’s how it’s done in both the Eastern Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches, and some Roman clergy are married, usually converts from Anglicanism or Lutheranism), as long as you accept that the current practice is only to ordain single men. But the Church will never allow clergy to marry after ordination (that’s a doctrine).

=Question # 1:
At one point in history, God was NOT grievously offended by the faithful eating meat on Fridays.
Then at another point in history, the Holy Spirit reveals to the Magisterium, that God will now be grievously offended if the faithful willingly and deliberately eats meat on Fridays.
Then later on, (I believe after Vatican I I), the Holy Spirit reveals again to the Magisterium, that God has now changed His Mind again, and He will stop being grievously offended by the faithful eating meat on Fridays.

How do we explain this? Does God simply change His Mind about certain behaviors at different times in history?

The Friday thing is part of the Church’s power of binding and loosing (Matthew 6:19), along with the idea that we’re all suppose to do penance. Friday was chosen as the day for penance because Friday was the day Christ was crucified.

Technically speaking, all Fridays during the year are still days of penance, but only Fridays in Lent are required to be meatless (supposedly, each countries Bishops is suppose to subscribe a different penance for Fridays during the rest of the year, but not many do). So again it’s not about meat, it’s about giving something up (meat was chosen because it’s traditional). The more traditional Catholics will still give up meat all Fridays as their penance.

Question # 2:
At one time, the Holy Spirit told the Catholic Church, that willfully missing Mass on Sunday is a mortal sin.
Then the Holy Spirit told the Catholic Church, that not attending Mass on Sunday is NOT a mortal sin, as long as one attends Mass on Saturday, AFTER 4:00 PM. If one attends Mass on Saturday BEFORE 4:00 PM, then God MUST still count this as a mortal sin, and the person will separate himself from God. And if he dies, then God MUST banish him to the eternal damnation in Hell.

Technically speaking, nothing changed. The practice of anticipatory or vigil masses was just extended to all year round. The practice was always common for the Easter Vigil, which was always on late “Holy Saturday”, and possibly Christmas (I’m not sure about that one, it just might have been midnight mass). Attending mass on Saturday evening is anticipating Sunday (remember, the Jewish concept of day is from sundown to sundown, not midnight to midnight), while attending Saturday morning is not anticipating Sunday. Canonically speaking, Sunday is the “longest day” in a Church week (running from about 4:00 pm “Saturday” to 11:59 Sunday).

 

[PJM]

[QUOT]E=hellopeople;6528045]The only way that we choose hell for ourselves is if we get to the pearly gates and God says “do you want to go to heaven or hell”…and then the person chooses hell. Otherwise, we don’t choose hell. You could say that living a life of sin is like choosing hell, but no one really knows what gets people to hell. Do you really think that if people knew the gravity of the situation, and knew exactly what would send them to hell, and knew how bad it would be, people would be doing these things? Only a tiny percent of them I would imagine. For all we know not being Muslim could send us to hell. No one knows for sure. So no one really chooses hell unless God gives them the choice after they die…otherwise it really isn’t a choice.

Let me make an analogy…Imagine you lived somewhere that didn’t allow its citizens to know the laws of the land. Someone thinks they are following the laws because they don’t know, and they end up getting arrested and thrown in jail for life for something they didn’t even know they were doing. The person might have known that they were doing wrong, but they didn’t know it was against the law…and the person had heard that people got arrested, but didn’t believe it and thought it was a myth. Is that fair? The analogy isn’t great, but do you see what I am saying?

***Ignoring the FAct that the Bible ad God both disagree with you; why then do all of humanity have the SPIRITUAL GIFTS of Mind, intellect, and freewill. No other creature in God’s universe is so gifted. And in the entrire Universe, only Earth can sustain life.

The Moral Laws on “written on our hearts” Even heathens are aware of them.

God judges NOT just on what we know BUT ON WHAT GOD PERMITS, ALLOWS US TO KNOW. So friend, continue in your voluntary ignorance; and son and very soon you’ll discover the Truth!

Asking about fair: what’s you’re opinion of this make believe story?

I’m a weathty man, you’re poor. You steal $50.00 from me, I find out and demand it back. You refuse, and in anger I kill you.

As I run out of you’re house I’m hit by a car and killed:

**Now we BOTH have unConfessed [John 20:19-23] unforgiven sins on our souls.

Your’s is a lesser sin; mine a Mortal sin. ***

QESTION: Is God going to judge us the same?

God never changs: God MUST BE fair and Just!
Love and prayers, friend

Just coincedience I guess **

 

[TedDC]

And yet masturbation itself still has no reproductive ends in itself.

So what?

No. Eating is not the same as sexual activity. Sexual activity is inherently ordered towards reproductive purposes as an ends. So says natural law.

Again, so says the Church’s interpretation of natural law. Clearly reproduction is a purpose of sexual activity, but how can you prove that it’s the only purpose that God intended?

And no offense, but as a fallen-away Catholic I don’t expect you to understand.

I understand quite well; I simply do not find the arguments convincing.

When you’ve already rebelled against the Church there’s nothing to stop you rebelling against everything else. In the end, the consent to accept God’s laws is going to have to come from within yourself. I can’t make you accept them, but you do need to know that you’re still bound by them.

Your words demonstrate the very common Catholic “We…have…rules!!!” attitude, which is uncomfortable with any questioning of authority, and eager to call out anyone who strays from what’s been approved by those who make the rules for you.

I simply make a distinction between God’s laws and laws made by man - even man wrapping himself in a claim of infallibility - as embodied in much of Church doctrine, dogma and disciplines. Of course I accept God’s laws - I just don’t accept that men have the power to speak on God’s behalf!

 

[WillyMcCabe]

What would God do with souls who have no desire to be with Him? If a person hated God during life and could care less about serving God or knowing Him, why on earth would that person want to be with God for eternity? God made us free. He will not force us to love Him. The human soul is immortal. God has said so. A soul that does not want to reside with God in eternity has only one other place to go. Hell.