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meltzerboy2
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There is ritual hand washing or cleansing in several circumstances, but I’m not sure this would correspond to what we call sprinkling. Maybe yes, maybe no. Could you give some examples of sprinkling?
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Onthisrock84
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Lilith is from a 6th century book called the Alphabet of Sirach. A very satirical book that talks about some really weird stuff. It is Christian in origin. It is interesting but if that book has any authority than I can think of 50 other texts we should be talking about.
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kainosktisis
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Is mayim chayim living water?
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Moses613
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That’s the literal translation. It actually means spring water, because it is “alive” = constantly flowing/renewed.
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kainosktisis
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Ah!
One of my daughter’s middle name is Mayim.
One of my daughter’s middle name is Mayim.
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Moses613
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Beautiful 
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Metis1
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The sprinkling of blood during animal sacrifices.
In the matter of baptism in the Church, there is no rule that says how deep the water must be. Even though immersion was the norm at first, it was not viewed that the depth of the water was all that important although flowing waters was.
In the matter of baptism in the Church, there is no rule that says how deep the water must be. Even though immersion was the norm at first, it was not viewed that the depth of the water was all that important although flowing waters was.
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Moses613
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It’s not depth, it’s volume. The water must cover the object on all sides. The typical liquid volume required for a minimum mikveh for a person is something like 485 liters.
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Metis1
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According to whom or what, plus when? I ask this because, over time, additional rules tend to get added on theologically. The OU, for example, certainly doesn’t speak for all non-secular Jews.
Also, the classical rabbinical literature that does cover some regulations doesn’t answer these questions either since that came centuries later then when we first run across the finding of mikvoth, which was around the 1st century b.c.e.
Either way, “baptism” through the Church set up our own regulations over time.
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Moses613
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Well, if you want “classical rabbinical literature” it doesn’t get more classic than the Mishnah. There is an entire tractate devoted to the laws of Mikveh. See here for the Mishnah that mentions the minimum volume of a Mikveh for a human, 40 se’ah: Mishnah Mikvaot 1:7
On that, there is no dispute. What 40 se’ah equals in a modern measure of volume is a historical question. You can check out this Wikipedia entry: Biblical and Talmudic units of measurement - Wikipedia where if you put in the effort you can see that 1 mina is estimated at 0.505 liters, and that is equivalent to 1 log, and that there are 24 log in one se’ah.
On that, there is no dispute. What 40 se’ah equals in a modern measure of volume is a historical question. You can check out this Wikipedia entry: Biblical and Talmudic units of measurement - Wikipedia where if you put in the effort you can see that 1 mina is estimated at 0.505 liters, and that is equivalent to 1 log, and that there are 24 log in one se’ah.
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Metis1
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But you are failing to take into consideration the dating of the Mishnah vis-a-vis when the Mikvot were first used and also when we see the first references to baptism. It was about 1000 years from the first giving of the Oral Law at Sinai to when the Mishnah was put to the pen. Just because these dimensions eventually were assigned doesn’t mean that they were there to begin with.
At least one Jewish historian that I have read believes it is likely that the mikveh may have been a later extension of the hand-washing ritual used during the First Temple period (and after) by the Temple priests that became assigned to the masses.
We have to remember that religions evolve over centuries, and this includes Judaism and Christianity.
At least one Jewish historian that I have read believes it is likely that the mikveh may have been a later extension of the hand-washing ritual used during the First Temple period (and after) by the Temple priests that became assigned to the masses.
We have to remember that religions evolve over centuries, and this includes Judaism and Christianity.
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Moses613
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You keep moving the goalpost. I made a comment about the halachic qualifications for a mikveh, then you questioned if the volume standard had a basis in early rabbinic literature or if it’s subject to a more contemporary dispute; when I proved it is an ancient measurement, you then questioned the evolution of the halacha before its recording in writing. Obviously, surmising how things went down before they were written is either a matter of historical conjecture or of faith. We Rabbinic Jews believe in the antiquity of our oral laws as passed down based on our solid chain of tradition. I can’t force you to accept that.
Saying that full body immersion is an extension of the hand-washing ritual is typical baloney from Jewish Academia. The Torah says about someone with a Zav impurity, “and he shall wash his flesh in spring water and purify”. When the Torah wants a priest to wash his hands, the Torah says “his hand”. “His flesh” is something else, and implies all his flesh! Your historian might be confused because there is a place in the Torah, I forget where, that it advises the “hand” be washed and the rabbis do extend that to the whole body, with an exegetical explanation. However, that does not contradict the fact that in some places clearly whole-body immersion is indicated/implied.
“Religions evolve” - granted, but we have very different understandings of why and how that happened. When our Rabbis of the Talmud tell us a law “evolved” in a certain way, and Professor Larry Goldstein (yes it’s a made up name) puts on his spectacles and says, “Well…” I’m not very likely to be receptive to his theories
Call it dogmatism I suppose!!
Saying that full body immersion is an extension of the hand-washing ritual is typical baloney from Jewish Academia. The Torah says about someone with a Zav impurity, “and he shall wash his flesh in spring water and purify”. When the Torah wants a priest to wash his hands, the Torah says “his hand”. “His flesh” is something else, and implies all his flesh! Your historian might be confused because there is a place in the Torah, I forget where, that it advises the “hand” be washed and the rabbis do extend that to the whole body, with an exegetical explanation. However, that does not contradict the fact that in some places clearly whole-body immersion is indicated/implied.
“Religions evolve” - granted, but we have very different understandings of why and how that happened. When our Rabbis of the Talmud tell us a law “evolved” in a certain way, and Professor Larry Goldstein (yes it’s a made up name) puts on his spectacles and says, “Well…” I’m not very likely to be receptive to his theories
Call it dogmatism I suppose!!
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Metis1
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And this is where our discussion must come to an end because we’re operating out of a different base of understanding as I put only partial credence to the Oral Law and even Torah itself as I don’t have that much faith in divine inspiration or inerrancy. As much as this will likely bother you, I put more credence with BAR than I do Torah, not that the archaeologists are always right (they certainly ain’t), but they try to work more with objectively-derived evidence than subjective-faith statements that are almost 3000 years old.
Actually, I just noticed the word “Orthodox” in the title of this thread, so I probably shouldn’t have posted at all here. My bad. [but I’ll leave this post up to clarify where I was coming from]
Take care.
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Moses613
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Archaeology rests on inference from physical evidence. (There is no “objectively derived” evidence, physical evidence can be dug out of the ground, there is no objective or subjective unearthing of pottery, etc.) That evidence is then interpreted. The interpretation is not math or physics. There is always an element of subjectivity.
Historians value oral traditions in many contexts, with caveats of course, especially from non-literate cultures that had a strong culture of oral history. Therefore, even from a scholarly perspective, there is room for a voice from the oral tradition.
I see a lot of sloppy scholarship, and I don’t mind pointing it out when I do. My point here has never been to “prove” orthodoxy, although I often try to point out where people think they have “disproved” it, that they have not.
Historians value oral traditions in many contexts, with caveats of course, especially from non-literate cultures that had a strong culture of oral history. Therefore, even from a scholarly perspective, there is room for a voice from the oral tradition.
I see a lot of sloppy scholarship, and I don’t mind pointing it out when I do. My point here has never been to “prove” orthodoxy, although I often try to point out where people think they have “disproved” it, that they have not.
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Psalms62
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Will Elijah be the one who will usher in the Messanic age…and is this a Sephardic view? How different is the Sephardic view on the end of days vs Ashkenazi view?
The Prophet Malachi tells us that it will be Elijah the Prophet who will announce the arrival of Moshiach (the Messiah).
The Prophet Malachi tells us that it will be Elijah the Prophet who will announce the arrival of Moshiach (the Messiah).
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hvizsgyak
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I hope this isn’t a duplicate question for you but I’ve tried to go through as many of the previous posts to see if someone else asked you this question. There are a lot of post so if its ok, can I just ask the question? Can you recommend any other books that complement the Torah and its historical verses? I’m looking for something that is orthodox and highly recommended by pious Jewish people. The Torah as well as the first Books of the Bible give limited information. I’m interested in stories around the time of Noah and Abraham. Thank you for your help.
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Moses613
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Yes, as the prophet said, Elijah (Eliyahu) will announce the arrival of Mashiach. There is no “Sephardic view” and “Ashkenazic view” on this or most any other matter of theology. We study all views and come to our own understanding. In the realm of Halacha (Law) it is different, because part of the Halachic process rests on custom and precedent, which were different in communities that were widely separated.
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Moses613
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For a good beginner book that’s written in more of a storytelling way, try The Midrash Says: https://www.amazon.com/Midrash-Says...d=1534176326&sr=8-4&keywords=the+midrash+says
For actual commentaries, there are tons. You can try The Living Torah (Aryeh Kaplan), The Pentateuch with the Hirsch commentary (Samson Raphael Hirsch), or Artscroll ArtScroll.com - Bereishis / Genesis 2 Volume Set
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13pollitos
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Thank you! I was not the one who asked but am happy to see your reply.
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Psalms62
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It is amazing, and thinking about what you said about custom and precedent, on where some of these communities are located. Amazonian Jews. I read this article - this not being one of them - of a community is located within the mouth of the Amazon river.
“The small communities are recognizably Jewish with many of them observing Shabbat and kosher laws in the familiar ways one would find everywhere. However, each have customs reflecting their own “flavor” of Judaism. For example, in the tiny Jewish communities of Uganda and Zimbabwe songs written in Hebrew are set to African melodies; in India the Benei Menashe still practice ritual sacrifice of animals while the Bene Israel have their “Malida” ceremony which offers prayers, songs and bowls of fruits and flowers to the Prophet Elijah.” Scattered Among The Nations
How amazing and even for the fact of how these communities continue with holding onto halakha (Jewish religious law).
Thank you for your reply.
“The small communities are recognizably Jewish with many of them observing Shabbat and kosher laws in the familiar ways one would find everywhere. However, each have customs reflecting their own “flavor” of Judaism. For example, in the tiny Jewish communities of Uganda and Zimbabwe songs written in Hebrew are set to African melodies; in India the Benei Menashe still practice ritual sacrifice of animals while the Bene Israel have their “Malida” ceremony which offers prayers, songs and bowls of fruits and flowers to the Prophet Elijah.” Scattered Among The Nations
How amazing and even for the fact of how these communities continue with holding onto halakha (Jewish religious law).
Thank you for your reply.
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