Anti-abortion suction apparatus

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Thanks mommamaree.

I just wonder how many babies it would save if there were no suction apparatus since there is a surgery option. Grant it a percentage of mothers would lose their lives but the risk to the unborn babe is 100%. It could be debated by pro-life people I think but this topic was started to see if those against guns even for self defense would be just as upset over the suction apparatus. Me thinks not. Pity

Annie
Banning the machine is absurd as they are used for the D&C procedure for other reasons. Miscarriage is just one. Abnormal uterine bleeding not related to pregnancy is another reason. Fibroids. Abnormal uterine tissue, etc. It is a medical device and is morally neutral.
 
Banning the machine is absurd as they are used for the D&C procedure for other reasons. Miscarriage is just one. Abnormal uterine bleeding not related to pregnancy is another reason. Fibroids. Abnormal uterine tissue, etc. It is a medical device and is morally neutral.
Please read post # 39 above.
 
I think this thread should be moved to the “Axe to Grind” subsection.
 
I think this thread should be moved to the “Axe to Grind” subsection.
Now that really carries the discussion forward :rolleyes:. Could it be that you don’t appreciate a poor man’s (I mean woman’s) attempt at Socratic logic? :rolleyes: Me thinks Peter Kreeft would not give me such a high grade if I were in his class. 😃

Annie
 
Now that really carries the discussion forward :rolleyes:. Could it be that you don’t appreciate a poor man’s (I mean woman’s) attempt at Socratic logic? :rolleyes: Me thinks Peter Kreeft would not give me such a high grade if I were in his class. 😃

Annie
Good Evening Annie: The subject of the thread to my understanding was a challenge to anti-gun readers, like myself, to take the same stand on abortion. I responded, because I have the same stand on all life, but the argument is really in the reverse of what you intended, or so I think. The argument in my view is why people who are against abortion are often pro gun and pro death penalty. When I brought this up you replied that being pro gun or anti gun wasn’t part of the conversation, however, my understanding is that it was, because the challenge to join tis thread was posted on the thread in which I challenged gun ownership. My stance is that we should make every attempt to protect and preserve all life by any reasonable means possible.

Thank you,
Gary
 
Good Evening Annie: The subject of the thread to my understanding was a challenge to anti-gun readers, like myself, to take the same stand on abortion. I responded, because I have the same stand on all life, but the argument is really in the reverse of what you intended, or so I think. The argument in my view is why people who are against abortion are often pro gun and pro death penalty. When I brought this up you replied that being pro gun or anti gun wasn’t part of the conversation, however, my understanding is that it was, because the challenge to join tis thread was posted on the thread in which I challenged gun ownership. My stance is that we should make every attempt to protect and preserve all life by any reasonable means possible.

Thank you,
Gary
I think this misses the point. Abortion is not the target. Devices used in abortion are. Abortion is a great evil. Where is the outcry to ban the devices used to commit this great evil? If the answer is, they are also used for good, then why doesn’t the same logic apply to guns?
 
I think this misses the point. Abortion is not the target. Devices used in abortion are. Abortion is a great evil. Where is the outcry to ban the devices used to commit this great evil? If the answer is, they are also used for good, then why doesn’t the same logic apply to guns?
This is exactly it David. Thank you. I could hear only crickets when I waited to hear from the anti-gun folks who I invited to this thread. It is possible that I didn’t read Gary’s replies carefully enough. I didn’t realize that he didn’t understand the point that I was making.

Annie
 
I think this misses the point. Abortion is not the target. Devices used in abortion are. Abortion is a great evil. Where is the outcry to ban the devices used to commit this great evil? If the answer is, they are also used for good, then why doesn’t the same logic apply to guns?
I didn’t join this because it wasn’t a genuine discussion. It was a contrived and childish attempt to control a debate by taking it out of context.

In the gun control thread, nowhere is it suggested that all guns should be banned (sporting, hunting, farming, commercial). It is not even suggested that guns should not be used in defense. (Police, military, security).

What was being argued was that giving these instruments of death to private individuals and saying you are permitted to kill in self defense… is counter productive to the safety, security and peacefulness of the community and contributes to the fundamental attitude of the culture of death, which is “I have the right to kill if I deem my welfare demands it”

If the womb suction devices were placed into the hands of individuals and said you can now privately make the decision to evacuate the contents of your womb… I would certainly be crying up and down the coast. Private people are accountable to no one bar their own perception of what is necessary at the time. What one person thinks is reasonable another will think is excessive. It all depends on what your base mentality is. At least in the hands of professionals and subjected to a general standard of responsible use, there is a much greater safeguard for the community.

So the original thread was not about banning all guns. It was about restricting defense guns (which are about permission to kill if deemed necessary), to the public authorities who are permitted to kill in defense. Private individuals are not allowed to intend to kill someone in self defense.

This thread was made on a sham premise.
 
LS you write: I didn’t join this because it wasn’t a genuine discussion. It was a contrived and childish attempt to control a debate by taking it out of context.

Me: On what do you base your assertion that this is not a genuine discussion? Is there any rule that you can point to that can give us an accurate definition of what constitutes a genuine vs. a contrived and childish…. discussion? Or are you guilty of an ad hominem logical fallacy whereby you hope that I’ll be sufficiently put in my place so you don’t have to deal with the fact that suction devices are used to murder babies.

LS: What was being argued was that giving these instruments of death to private individuals and saying you are permitted to kill in self defense… is counter productive to the safety, security and peacefulness of the community and contributes to the fundamental attitude of the culture of death, which is “I have the right to kill if I deem my welfare demands it”

A: Once again I ask you. Is it your assertion that abortionists using instruments of death are okay with you as long as private individuals are not doing the killing?

LS: If the womb suction devices were placed into the hands of individuals and said you can now privately make the decision to evacuate the contents of your womb… I would certainly be crying up and down the coast.

A: This has begun to take on an ominous tone. Here we go again. Please explain why you aren’t crying up and down the coast when abortionists are making the “decision to evacuate the contents of your womb” if you would be doing so if private persons decided to do this? BTW in my world we call the “contents of the womb” babies.

LS: Private people are accountable to no one bar their own perception of what is necessary at the time. What one person thinks is reasonable another will think is excessive. It all depends on what your base mentality is. At least in the hands of professionals and subjected to a general standard of responsible use, there is a much greater safeguard for the community.

A: Oh I see (I think). “In the hands of the professionals who are subject to general standards of responsible use.” So a professional using a suction device for abortion is an example of “responsible use” in your mind?

LS: So the original thread was not about banning all guns. It was about restricting defense guns (which are about permission to kill if deemed necessary), to the public authorities who are permitted to kill in defense. Private individuals are not allowed to intend to kill someone in selfs defense.

A: And one more time, is it your assertion that private individuals cannot defend themselves with guns but professional abortionists can kill babes just because they are professional. I wonder if you read about my fantasy wherein science had invented a device that would allow a person in the womb to defend himself against the attack. Would you go on record as being against this device because the person with the suction device is a professional and the babe is not?

LS: This thread was made on a sham premise.

A: That appears to me to be another insulting logical fallacy. I could ask you on what grounds you make that statement but I won’t.

Annie
 
I think this misses the point. Abortion is not the target. Devices used in abortion are. Abortion is a great evil. Where is the outcry to ban the devices used to commit this great evil? If the answer is, they are also used for good, then why doesn’t the same logic apply to guns?
Good Evening Davidv: The suction devices that are the subject of this thread are designed and used for the following purposes in addition to abortion:

-Surgery, blood needs to be suctioned away at times and they use it when they need to irrigate the surgical area.

-Naso Gastric tube suctioning… in cases of overdose, after abdominal surgery, or is also sometimes used for a few days in a person with acute pancreatitis.

-Vomiting in an unconscious patient

-Suctioning out a patient on a ventilator or who has a trach tube.

-During a C-section to drain the amniotic fluid.

***-In a newborn infant with meconium aspiration. ***

Guns on the other hand, are ***designed ***for killing things. And while they can be used for sports like target practice, or a paperweight or a decoration, it’s design is for killing, and its only real purpose is to kill. A gun has no curative, medicinal or medical value. The suction devices being railed against on this thread are designed for many life saving purposes. Furthermore, I cannot hold up a convenience store with a suction device, nor can I go on a deadly sucking spree in a crowd with one. On the other hand, I cannot perform a medical or surgical procedure with an assault weapon.

The main problem with the pro gun, pro death penalty and anti abortion culture is that it doesn’t have a consistent message, if in fact the message is the sanctity of life.

Thank you,
Gary
 
Good Evening Davidv: The suction devices that are the subject of this thread are designed and used for the following purposes in addition to abortion:

-Surgery, blood needs to be suctioned away at times and they use it when they need to irrigate the surgical area.

-Naso Gastric tube suctioning… in cases of overdose, after abdominal surgery, or is also sometimes used for a few days in a person with acute pancreatitis.

-Vomiting in an unconscious patient

-Suctioning out a patient on a ventilator or who has a trach tube.

-During a C-section to drain the amniotic fluid.

***-In a newborn infant with meconium aspiration. ***

Guns on the other hand, are ***designed ***for killing things. And while they can be used for sports like target practice, or a paperweight or a decoration, it’s design is for killing, and its only real purpose is to kill. A gun has no curative, medicinal or medical value. The suction devices being railed against on this thread are designed for many life saving purposes. Furthermore, I cannot hold up a convenience store with a suction device, nor can I go on a deadly sucking spree in a crowd with one. On the other hand, I cannot perform a medical or surgical procedure with an assault weapon.

The main problem with the pro gun, pro death penalty and anti abortion culture is that it doesn’t have a consistent message, if in fact the message is the sanctity of life.

Thank you,
Gary
Gary I believe that you are against killing animals. All long guns are designed to kill animals not people, examples are shot guns for birds and rifles for deer and other large animals. Of course they can be used to kill people but that is not their design.

It is difficult for me to understand why you equate the killing of animals with the killing of people, but so be it but most Catholics, at least those of my acquaintance do not share your opinion. I mentioned once that Jesus ate meat. If I remember correctly you said something like the jury is out on this. Of course not those exact words but the meaning I think is the same. But Jesus was a practicing Jew. He ate the Passover dinner. He ate meat.

So we are really arguing across each other because our world views are different.

Annie
 
LS you write: I didn’t join this because it wasn’t a genuine discussion. It was a contrived and childish attempt to control a debate by taking it out of context.

Me: On what do you base your assertion that this is not a genuine discussion? Is there any rule that you can point to that can give us an accurate definition of what constitutes a genuine vs. a contrived and childish…. discussion? Or are you guilty of an ad hominem logical fallacy whereby you hope that I’ll be sufficiently put in my place so you don’t have to deal with the fact that suction devices are used to murder babies.

LS: What was being argued was that giving these instruments of death to private individuals and saying you are permitted to kill in self defense… is counter productive to the safety, security and peacefulness of the community and contributes to the fundamental attitude of the culture of death, which is “I have the right to kill if I deem my welfare demands it”

A: Once again I ask you. Is it your assertion that abortionists using instruments of death are okay with you as long as private individuals are not doing the killing?

LS: If the womb suction devices were placed into the hands of individuals and said you can now privately make the decision to evacuate the contents of your womb… I would certainly be crying up and down the coast.

A: This has begun to take on an ominous tone. Here we go again. Please explain why you aren’t crying up and down the coast when abortionists are making the “decision to evacuate the contents of your womb” if you would be doing so if private persons decided to do this? BTW in my world we call the “contents of the womb” babies.

LS: Private people are accountable to no one bar their own perception of what is necessary at the time. What one person thinks is reasonable another will think is excessive. It all depends on what your base mentality is. At least in the hands of professionals and subjected to a general standard of responsible use, there is a much greater safeguard for the community.

A: Oh I see (I think). “In the hands of the professionals who are subject to general standards of responsible use.” So a professional using a suction device for abortion is an example of “responsible use” in your mind?

LS: So the original thread was not about banning all guns. It was about restricting defense guns (which are about permission to kill if deemed necessary), to the public authorities who are permitted to kill in defense. Private individuals are not allowed to intend to kill someone in selfs defense.

A: And one more time, is it your assertion that private individuals cannot defend themselves with guns but professional abortionists can kill babes just because they are professional. I wonder if you read about my fantasy wherein science had invented a device that would allow a person in the womb to defend himself against the attack. Would you go on record as being against this device because the person with the suction device is a professional and the babe is not?

LS: This thread was made on a sham premise.

A: That appears to me to be another insulting logical fallacy. I could ask you on what grounds you make that statement but I won’t.

Annie
What I think which is going to shock you to the core… is that abortion is one of the greatest evils of our time. I think that it is genocide. That is why I argue against abortion and for personhood from the moment of conception, on sites that aren’t Catholic. (Since no one agrees with abortion on this site) That is why I was a paid up member of the Right to Life movement from the mid 80’s until it switched to a donation system instead of a membership one. That is why abortion is my signature voting cause and I have no qualms in voting for the most anti-abortion candidate that runs.

I think suction devices that are used by medical professionals for legitimate medical procedures are good. I think suction devices used for abortions are very bad. I think that we should completely eliminate from society altogether that we have a right to kill another person for any reason other than just war and by the State if it is needed for the protection of society. I do not think that anyone, any person or organisation apart from the State, ever, ever, ever has the right to say, I will kill you in self defense whether it be an abortionist, a pregnant woman or a citizen in a neighbourhood.

I think that we should prevent abortion *and *every kind of killing in the name of individual rights altogether.
 
What I think which is going to shock you to the core… is that abortion is one of the greatest evils of our time. I think that it is genocide. That is why I argue against abortion and for personhood from the moment of conception, on sites that aren’t Catholic. (Since no one agrees with abortion on this site) That is why I was a paid up member of the Right to Life movement from the mid 80’s until it switched to a donation system instead of a membership one. That is why abortion is my signature voting cause and I have no qualms in voting for the most anti-abortion candidate that runs.

I think suction devices that are used by medical professionals for legitimate medical procedures are good. I think suction devices used for abortions are very bad. I think that we should completely eliminate from society altogether that we have a right to kill another person for any reason other than just war and by the State if it is needed for the protection of society. I do not think that anyone, any person or organisation apart from the State, ever, ever, ever has the right to say, I will kill you in self defense whether it be an abortionist, a pregnant woman or a citizen in a neighbourhood.

I think that we should prevent abortion *and *every kind of killing in the name of individual rights altogether.
Then so I get this straight, you think that the babe in the womb if he had the self defense mechanism of my fantasy he should not use it?

Let’s say you and your child were to visit me in Arizona USA where it is legal to own a gun and a person broke in the middle of the night and had a gun pointed at your child’s head and I had the means, opportunity and skill to stop the aggressor is it your opinion that I should not stop him from killing your child?

If the bad guy had the gun pointed at your head and I protected you by shooting the aggressor, would you berate me for this afterward? Does the bad guy’s individual rights trump your individual rights?

Annie
 
Then so I get this straight, you think that the babe in the womb if he had the self defense mechanism of my fantasy he should not use it?

Let’s say you and your child were to visit me in Arizona USA where it is legal to own a gun and a person broke in the middle of the night and had a gun pointed at your child’s head and I had the means, opportunity and skill to stop the aggressor is it your opinion that I should not stop him from killing your child?

If the bad guy had the gun pointed at your head and I protected you by shooting the aggressor, would you berate me for this afterward? Does the bad guy’s individual rights trump your individual rights?

Annie
When the government makes laws, they look at the big picture. How will this law impact on the whole community. It’s safety, security and the general wellbeing. There are many scenarios that have to be considered for the common good to be served. If those with criminal intentions have easy access to guns in the first place, it is reasonable to assume that there will be many, many innocent people with guns held to their head at any given moment requiring many, many instances of fatal ‘savings’.

Criminals and crime will always be with us. Just like staphylococcus in the hospitals, if you keep getting better and better grade disinfectant to combat it, you end up with highly resistant super bugs that are impossible to fight. It’s far better to live with a small amount of risk for the sake of natural immunity, than to flood the problem with an even bigger problem.
 
A quick question for those of you who favor gun control and say that a person who is attacked should have no right to kill the attacker in self-defense:

Do you expect for innocent people just to submit to death or torture or rape at the hands of their attacker? What would be allowable in such a scenario? If a person defended themselves and ended up having to use lethal force against their attacker, and their attacker died, do you believe the person who defended themselves should be charged with a crime?

I mean this question in all sincerity, because after reading the responses to Annie’s query, I am very confused about the gun control perspective. I am neutral on this. I have no agenda currently, other than wrapping my brain around this concept.
 
A quick question for those of you who favor gun control and say that a person who is attacked should have no right to kill the attacker in self-defense:

Do you expect for innocent people just to submit to death or torture or rape at the hands of their attacker? What would be allowable in such a scenario? If a person defended themselves and ended up having to use lethal force against their attacker, and their attacker died, do you believe the person who defended themselves should be charged with a crime?

I mean this question in all sincerity, because after reading the responses to Annie’s query, I am very confused about the gun control perspective. I am neutral on this. I have no agenda currently, other than wrapping my brain around this concept.
St Thomas set the parameters of a ‘blameless defense’ in Summa Theologica.

Nothing hinders one act from having two effects, only one of which is intended, while the other is beside the intention. Now moral acts take their species according to what is intended, and not according to what is beside the intention, since this is accidental as explained above. Accordingly the act of self-defense may have two effects, one is the saving of one’s life, the other is the slaying of the aggressor. Therefore this act, since one’s intention is to save one’s own life, is not unlawful, seeing that it is natural to everything to keep itself in “being,” as far as possible. **And yet, though proceeding from a good intention, an act may be rendered unlawful, if it be out of proportion to the end. Wherefore if a man, in self-defense, uses more than necessary violence, it will be unlawful: whereas if he repel force with moderation his defense will be lawful, because according to the jurists **[Cap. Significasti, De Homicid. volunt. vel casual.], “it is lawful to repel force by force, provided one does not exceed the limits of a blameless defense.” Nor is it necessary for salvation that a man omit the act of moderate self-defense in order to avoid killing the other man, since one is bound to take more care of one’s own life than of another’s. But as it is unlawful to take a man’s life, except for the public authority acting for the common good, as stated above (Article 3), it is not lawful for a man to intend killing a man in self-defense, except for such as have public authority, who while intending to kill a man in self-defense, refer this to the public good, as in the case of a soldier fighting against the foe, and in the minister of the judge struggling with robbers, although even these sin if they be moved by private animosity.

So while it is lawful to use moderate force in repelling an act of aggression even if that results in the death of the aggressor, it is not lawful for an individual person to intend to kill in self defense. Now I’m suggesting here, that owning an instrument that is guaranteed to kill, in anticipation that you may one day be attacked, constitutes intending to kill in self defense. Others have circumnavigated that point by saying they don’t own the gun to intend to kill… they only *intend *to stop the aggressor by aiming at the largest mass area of the body which is the chest area. I counter that reasoning by the same process as we would define ‘occasion of sin’. “I didn’t intend to have sex. I just intended to lie in bed cuddling with no clothes on”.

When scenarios are offered to support everyone owning a gun for self defense, they appeal to the empathy that the rational person would have on hearing about a large ugly aggressor attacking a small delicate lady or a vulnerable child and mother. Their aim in using that tack is to ask, “are we willing to sacrifice these vulnerable people for the sake of the criminal”. I counter that with the overwhelming view of outside observers of US culture in saying that by flooding the community with guns and tolerating the inordinately high incidence of school and university gun massacres as well as the inordinately high murder rate in the country… the sacrifice of the young and vulnerable to the gun culture is already shocking and has the empathy of rational people who find death and crime horrible.
 
Gary I believe that you are against killing animals. All long guns are designed to kill animals not people, examples are shot guns for birds and rifles for deer and other large animals. Of course they can be used to kill people but that is not their design.
 
St Thomas set the parameters of a ‘blameless defense’ in Summa Theologica. etc
To those who read this: Please note that the person calling herself LongingSoul does not reply directly to direct questions. She quotes Aquinas and then interprets his writings to her own end. Kind of a like Protestants do with the bible. It is clear that Aquinas allows for self defense. LS goes on to allege that “it is not lawful for an individual person to intend to kill in self defense. Now I’m suggesting here, that owning an instrument that is guaranteed to kill, in anticipation that you may one day be attacked, constitutes intending to kill in self defense”. This is private interpretation. She (An Australian) goes further to denigrate the USA “I counter that with the overwhelming view of outside observers of US culture in saying that by flooding the community with guns and tolerating the inordinately high incidence of school and university gun massacres as well as the inordinately high murder rate in the country.” (BTW please note that New Zealand has a more lenient gun law but has not had any school shootings I told her this but she chooses to ignore it. Its inconvenient.)

When I have proven over and over and over again that her country is as violent as the US. So LS I looked up the violent crime rate in Brisbane and in the town that I live in. I have learned that Brisbane is one of the safer cities in AU but that isn’t saying a whole lot. Guess what? There were four home invasion robberies and one murder (a French woman) in Brisbane this year. In one of those home invasion robberies, right there in your very own city was perpetrated on an older man who had saved all of his life for his own funeral and the criminals stole it. There was Not ONE in my town in AZ of either crime. I have evidence that crime in Australia has exploded even after the gun ban. As most Americans can tell you Arizona is a right to carry state. Not only that it is a “shall issue” conceal carry state. My town, we are learning, (newly moved here from California) most people own guns. I don’t know yet how many conceal carry folks there are. This town for many years has been known as the safest or maybe the second safest in Arizona. It lost that distinction two or three years ago when a man killed his family and himself. Instead of listening to the liberal media about our country I recommend that you take the blinders off and concentrate on your own country. You are living in a safe city because the police decided to crack down on the bikers (bikies, dumb name) and drug gangs. Do you know what happens when one city cracks down on violent crimes?? The criminals go to another city. It’s like whack- a-mole; they pop down one place and jump up in another. (Sydney, Australia anyone?). Then they lay low and return when the “coast is clear”. So you need to concentrate on your own city/country.

As an aside hubby and I just checked out an outdoor shooting range in a nearby town. You should have seen all the fire power there. There were guns of every kind including several assault rifles. Not one person was shot at and I’m willing to bet that I was safer there than if I were in an establishment that had a sign in the window “no guns allowed”. If you wanted to rob a place and had only those two to choose from, which would you choose?

LS, Please reply directly to direct questions.

Annie
 
Annie39;11975300:
Good Evening Annie:

I am against killing both animals and people, yes.

I have never sought the approval of most Catholics in forming my opinions. The fact that I am against killing animals doesn’t make the killing of people more acceptable in my view.

We covered this before. Jesus was not an ordinary Jew in a number of ways. Most significantly, an ordinary Jew living at the time of Christ would have been married for around 20 years by the time he was 33, yet we take it that Jesus wasn’t married, and there is no account of Him being married to the best of my knowledge. Likewise to the best of my knowledge, there is no inventory of what He ate. Of course, none of this has any bearing on what I eat or don’t eat.

They are very different - we can agree on that.

Thanks,
Gary
Gary you write : I have never sought the approval of most Catholics in forming my opinions.
It is not ordinary Catholics even most ordinary Catholic including me that you must have the approval of, but the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. If your opinions differ, so be it but then integrity (not me or most ordinary Catholics) would dictate that you cease referring to yourself as Catholic.

Annie
 
Gary Sheldrake;11978126:
Gary you write : I have never sought the approval of most Catholics in forming my opinions.
It is not ordinary Catholics even most ordinary Catholic including me that you must have the approval of, but the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church. If your opinions differ, so be it but then integrity (not me or most ordinary Catholics) would dictate that you cease referring to yourself as Catholic.

Annie
Hello Annie: As a reminder, the context of the remark was the in reference to the fact that I don’t believe in killing either animals or humans. Insofar as I am aware, there is no mandate from the Catholic Church that either requires or recommends that I kill animals or eat them, therefore, I do not understand your idea that I should stop calling myself a Catholic. You have many ideas that in my opinion seem rather counterintuitive to Christianity or even common morality, much less Catholicism, yet I have refrained from suggesting that you stop calling yourself whatever you like. Your arguments supporting the ownership of weapons while complaining about devices that admittedly can be used to take life, have many more common uses to save lives, seems rather dimly reasoned, yet I have not suggested that you call yourself something other than what you profess to be.

Thank you,
Gary
 
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