Anti-Catholic WELS

[LutheranStudent]

Regarding the Book of Concord, here is a snippet:
**What is the main point of the Lutheran Confessions? **
The Lutheran Reformation was not a “revolt,” but rather began as a sincere expression of concern with the false and misleading teachings, which, unfortunately, even to this very day, obscure the glory and merit of Jesus Christ. What motivated Luther was a zealous concern about the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Here is how the Lutheran Confessions explain what the Gospel is all about:

Human beings have not kept the law of God but have transgressed it. Their corrupted human nature, thoughts, words, and deeds battle against the law. For this reason they are subject to God’s wrath, to death and all temporal afflictions, and to the punishment of the fires of hell. As a result, the Gospel, in its strict sense, teaches what people should believe, namely, that they receive from God the forgiveness of sins; that is, that the Son of God, our Lord Christ, has taken upon Himself the curse of the law and borne it, atoned and paid for all our sins; that through Him alone we are restored to God’s grace, obtain the forgiveness of sins through faith and are delivered from death and all the punishments of our sins and are saved eternally. . . . It is good news, joyous news, that God does not want to punish sin but to forgive it for Christ’s sake (FC SD, V, 20).

​

**What is a “confessional” Lutheran?**The word “confession” is used in a variety of ways, but when we speak of a “confessional” Lutheran we mean a Lutheran who declares to the world his faith and most deeply held belief and conviction, in harmony with the documents contained in the Book of Concord. You will catch the spirit of confessional Lutheranism in these, the last words written in the Book of Concord:

Therefore, it is our intent to give witness before God and all Christendom, among those who are alive today and those who will come after us, that the explanation here set forth regarding all the controversial articles of faith which we have addressed and explained–and no other explanation–is our teaching, faith, and confession. In it we shall appear before the judgment throne of Jesus Christ, by God’s grace, with fearless hearts and thus give account of our faith, and we will neither secretly nor publicly speak or write anything contrary to it. Instead, on the strength of God’s grace, we intend to abide by this confession (FC SD, XII, 40).

​

**What is an “unconditional subscription” to the Confessions? **Confessional Lutheran pastors are required to “subscribe” unconditionally to the Lutheran Confessions because they are a pure exposition of the Word of God. This is the way our pastors, and every layman who confesses his belief in the Small Catechism, is able with great joy and without reservation or qualification to say what it is that he believes to be the truth of God’s Word.

Dr. C. F. W. Walther, the Missouri Synod’s first president, explained the meaning of an unconditional confessional subscription in words as clear and poignant today as they were then:

An unconditional subscription is the solemn declaration which the individual who wants to serve the church makes under oath that he accepts the doctrinal content of our Lutheran Confessions, because he recognizes the fact that they are in full agreement with Scripture and do not militate against Scripture in any point, whether the point be of major or minor importance; and that he therefore heartily believes in this divine truth and is determined to preach this doctrine.​

 

[LutheranStudent]

**So what is it to be a Lutheran? **

Being a Lutheran is being a person who believes the truths of God’s Word, the Holy Bible, as they are correctly explained and taught in the Book of Concord. To do so is to confess the Gospel of Jesus Christ. Genuine Lutherans, confessional Lutherans, dare to insist that “All doctrines should conform to the standards [the Lutheran Confessions] set forth above. Whatever is contrary to them should be rejected and condemned as opposed to the unanimous declaration of our faith” (FC Ep. RN, 6).

Such a statement may strike some as boastful. But it is not; rather, it is an expression of the Spirit-led confidence that moves us to speak of our faith before the world.

To be a confessional Lutheran is to be one who honors the Word of God. That word makes it clear that it is God’s desire for His church to be in agreement about doctrine, and to be of one mind, living at peace with one another (1 Cor. 1:10; 2 Cor. 13:11). It is for that reason that we so treasure the precious confession of Christian truth that we have in the Book of Concord. For Confessional Lutherans, there is no other collection of documents, or statements or books that so clearly, accurately and comfortingly presents the teachings of God’s Word and reveals the Biblical Gospel as does our Book of Concord.

Hand-in-hand with our commitment to pure teaching and confession of the faith, is, and always must be, our equally strong commitment to reaching out boldly with the Gospel and speaking God’s truth to the world. That is what “confession” of the faith is all about, in the final analysis. Indeed, “It is written: ÎI believed; therefore I have spoken.’ With that same spirit of faith we also believe and therefore speak” (2 Cor. 4:13). This is what it means to be a Lutheran.

 

[Lapsed]

LutheranStudent:

BTW, I wouldn’t so much bash the Lutherans for not holding together completely in this world. Remember - Where did the Lutherans come from?

A prideful man who refused to submit to the legitimate authority of Christ’s Church and work within her to bring the needed reforms.

The Lutheran churches simply continue to follow the example set by their founder. If you don’t like something, walk away instead of working to understand or change.

While practices and disciplines are subject to change, doctrine isn’t up for discussion. The protestants want to change the deposit of faith. If the Church did that, then she would no longer be Christ’s Church.

 

[LutheranStudent]

Acctually, the Lutheran church came from inside the Roman church. Shucks, you got that one wrong…

 

[RobNY]

LutheranStudent:

There are roughly 30 Lutheran denominations in the USA and Canada. It is not fair to say that they are all seperate churches, however, because many of these Lutheran denominations agree in doctrine. The WELS and the ELS, for example, do not clash over any point of doctrine. Another example would be the ELCA and the ELCIC; the LC-MS and LC-C. One major difference between Catholics and Lutherans is that Lutherans strive for a unity of belief and teaching among their own churches, and if that is present, that’s all that matters.

And yet-- how many of these synods allow intercommunion? I’ve read the LCMS website and they seem to prohibit communion outside of LCMS churches. I would imagine that the WELS, which seems to me to be more conservative than the LCMS, to do likewise. To me, intercommunion is a huge marking of the unity of churches, and has been historically. (After all, through communion we become one body in Christ.)

Relevant links from the LCMS site. Differences between the LCMS and WELS. (I do agree, they are extremely minor differences.) Communing at non-LCMS churches.

Catholics, however, would eventually have everyone submit to the Pope (perhaps

even before establishing doctrinal agreement). So while Lutherans stive for one theological teaching, Catholics strive for one political church.
Just for future reference, I can see how Catholics could take what you’ve said as somewhat insulting.

And yes, doctrinal agreement is always the necessary prerequisite for unity. It so happens that those who submit to the Ecumenical Pontiff tend to agree with his doctrinal positions. It is simple enough to say that whoever willingly submits to the Pope will likely also align himself doctrinally with Peter.

Also, submission is not a bad thing. The person who thinks he is wrong, and then submits to the Pope (who he thinks is right) may not explicitly agree with the Pope, but it is that submission that is the first step to agreement, just as any Christian who has trouble with any Christian doctrine should gladly submit without understanding, yielding obedience, and from that obedience will come understanding. If I advocate this on issues such as that of the Real Presence in the Eucharist, why not in general?

Lutherans strive for one theological teaching, just as Catholics do, by doctrinal unity. But it is the Catholics who have Peter as the marker of unity and orthodoxy.

BTW, I wouldn’t so much bash the Lutherans for not holding together completely in this world. Remember - Where did the Lutherans come from?

Except for Christ’s injunction for unity, I would agree.

Acctually, the Lutheran church came from inside the Roman church. Shucks, you got that one wrong…

As did all heretics proceed from the bosom of the Catholic Church. This was long used as a proof of the Catholic Church’s orthodoxy. St. Francis de Sales covered this in his tract.

THE Church to be Catholic must be universal in time, and to be universal in time it must be ancient; antiquity then is a property of the Church. And in relation to heresies it. must be more ancient than any of them, and must precede all, because as Tertullian excellently says (De Praesc. xxix.): ”Error is a corruption of truth, truth then must precede.” The good seed is sown first, the enemy who oversows cockle comes afterwards. Moses was before Abiron, Dathan, and Core; the Angels were before the devils; Lucifer stood in the light before he fell into the eternal darkness; the privation must follow the form. S. John says of heretics (I Ep. xix. 19): They went out from us; they were then within before they went out; the going out is heresy, the being within is fidelity; the Church then precedes heresy. So the coat of Our Lord was whole before it was divided. And altbough Ismael was before Isaac, that does not signify that error was before truth, but that the true shadow Judaism, was before the body, Christianity, as S. Paul says (Gal. iv.).

I ask you, gentlemen, whether you know when our Church began the pretended error. Tell us frankly; for it is certain that, as S. Jerome says (Adv. Lucif. 28) “to have reduced heresy to its origin is to have refuted it.”

Now, if Tertullian already in his time bears witness that Catholics refuted the errors of heretics by their posteriority and novelty, when the Church was only in her youth-" We are wont," says he, [De Praesc. xxx. *seqq.] "to prescribe against heretics, for brevity’s sake, on the argument of posteriority "

-how much more right have we now?

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

Peace be with you!

LutheranStudent:

Don’t flatter yourselves by thinking that we’re attacking papists especially.

That’s just a little insulting.

LutheranStudent:

Please, cite examples of supposed glaring errors in the site…

There are too many to list here, so I’ll just give you a few.

1. They have no idea what the Rosary is. They think that by praying the “Hail Mary” we are worshipping Mary. They think that by praying the “Our Father” we are trying to stack up “points” to get into heaven. Meditation on the Mysteries was not even mentioned.
2. The pope is referred to as the anti-christ and a preacher of false doctrine. In every answer he is referred to as such, no examples of the false teaching are given.
3. Veneration is defined as “worship”.
4. The Catholic Church is referred to as the work of Satan in one of the answers. Again, no citation of how this can be.
5. The Sacrament of Confession is condemned, but Luther himself wrote that Christians are to confess their sins to their ministers.
6. They state that Catholics do not believe that Christ’s sacrifice was once for all and that the sacrifice of the Mass is a new sacrifice every time, when in truth it is the SAME sacrifice.
7. They think that Catholics beleive the Church Fathers ESTABLISHED doctrine. This is not a Catholic teaching. We believe they taught doctrines the Apostles taught and only doctrines the Apostles taught.
8. They say that Catholics teach that all other Christian churches have “false baptisms”. We do not…in fact, we believe that EVERY Christian church that baptizes in the Trinitarian formula is a valid baptism.
9. They say that we believe the pope is equivalent to God. We do not.
10. They say that Catholics do not believe in salvation by grace alone when that is EXACTLY what we believe.

There is basically an error (or more than one) in every answer. Why do Lutherans ask Lutherans what Catholics believe rather than ask Catholics what Catholics believe? Because the Lutheran answer will back up the beliefs the person already had.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[cestusdei]

The WELS I have run into have often been quite anti-Catholic. Often insultingly so.

 

[littlesheep]

Hi Rand: Question for ya. How are we to define Veneration?

Main Entry: admiration
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: respect

Synonyms: account, adoration, affection, applause, appreciation, approbation, approval, deference, delight, esteem, estimation, favor, fondness,*** glorification***, homage, honor, idolatry, idolization, liking, love, marveling, obeisance, pleasure, praise, recognition, regard, reverence, valuing, Veneration, wonder, wonderment,*** worship***

Main Entry: honor
Part of Speech: noun 1
Definition: respect

Synonyms: account, adoration, adulation, aggrandizement, apotheosis, approbation, attention, canonization, celebration, confidence, consideration, credit, deference, deification, dignity, distinction, elevation, esteem, exaltation, faith, fame, fealty, glorification, glory, greatness, high standing, homage, immortalization, laud, laurel, lionization, notice, obeisance, popularity, praise, prestige, rank, recognition, renown, reputation, repute, reverence, tribute, trust, Veneration, worship, wreath

Main Entry: piety
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: devotion

Synonyms: allegiance, application, ardor, belief, devoutness, docility, dutifulness, duty, faith, fealty, fervor, fidelity, godliness, grace, holiness, loyalty, obedience, passion, piousness, religion, religiosity, religiousness, reverence, sanctity, Veneration, zeal

See this is where we have a hard time understanding your usage of words like veneration. And you don’t define it at New Advent so how are we to take it? The RCC needs to come up with a word other then veneration.

I found these entries at Dictionary.com I take it that you disagree with these synonyms. I’m still here trying to learn you language

 

[Lazerlike42]

littlesheep:

Hi Rand: Question for ya. How are we to define Veneration?

Main Entry: admiration
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: respect

Synonyms: account, adoration, affection, applause, appreciation, approbation, approval, deference, delight, esteem, estimation, favor, fondness,*** glorification***, homage, honor, idolatry, idolization, liking, love, marveling, obeisance, pleasure, praise, recognition, regard, reverence, valuing, Veneration, wonder, wonderment,*** worship***

Main Entry: honor
Part of Speech: noun 1
Definition: respect

Synonyms: account, adoration, adulation, aggrandizement, apotheosis, approbation, attention, canonization, celebration, confidence, consideration, credit, deference, deification, dignity, distinction, elevation, esteem, exaltation, faith, fame, fealty, glorification, glory, greatness, high standing, homage, immortalization, laud, laurel, lionization, notice, obeisance, popularity, praise, prestige, rank, recognition, renown, reputation, repute, reverence, tribute, trust, Veneration, worship, wreath

Main Entry: piety
Part of Speech: noun
Definition: devotion

Synonyms: allegiance, application, ardor, belief, devoutness, docility, dutifulness, duty, faith, fealty, fervor, fidelity, godliness, grace, holiness, loyalty, obedience, passion, piousness, religion, religiosity, religiousness, reverence, sanctity, Veneration, zeal

See this is where we have a hard time understanding your usage of words like veneration. And you don’t define it at New Advent so how are we to take it? The RCC needs to come up with a word other then veneration.

I found these entries at Dictionary.com I take it that you disagree with these synonyms. I’m still here trying to learn you language

The definition is more or less availible if you look at something like Aquinas’ Summa Theologica. That being said, the difference between worship and veneration is basically like this:

Worship means the way that people treat God in His power and dominion over them

Veneration means the way a person would treat a human king in his power and dominion over him

Moreso, you have to remember that words like adoration and worship are used differently. Adoration, for instance, is a word that Catholics use theologically to speak about how they treat God. However, in common usage we speak of adoring people and whatnot. The usage is different. Similarly, worship is the same way in that it is used in different ways. Its usage has actually changed over time. Nowadays, when we say worship, it usually is meant in the sense of giving respect to a deity. So people say they worship God. However, it can also be used in ways like when a person would refer to a king as “your worship.” It doesn’t mean the person is treating the king with the respect due only to God. It’s just a different way of using the word.

You highlight the words like adoration and glorification, seemingl concerned that veneration equates to these things. However, you don’t highlight words like affection and recognition. Veneration is not equivalent to worship or adoration simply because it is listed alongside them in a thesaurus. If so, then worship is equivalent to affection or recognition, which common sense tells us it is not.

 

[littlesheep]

1. The Sacrament of Confession is condemned, but Luther himself wrote that Christians are to confess their sins to their ministers

.

Please link me to the WELS Q & A that states that. Then I will be able to call them almost Lutheran also. Eather that or they didn’t understand the question. Because ya see that is not stated in the BOC in fact if you look at the Small Catechism it has a rite for confession. and later in the BOC it is stated that Confession could be our Third Sacrament if we count the Pastor as the Element… The Lutherans use only two sacraments because the Church has defined Sacrament as” instituted by God using Word and Element and promising Grace” like in Baptism and the Lords Supper. Kind of hard to find the Element in confession unless you count the Priest as an Element. Same with the other 4 that you call Sacraments Kinda hard in finding the promase of Grace in Marrage. By the way it really don’t matter if you want 7 fine, but the Church way before the reformation set the definition of Sacrament. We just are holding to that definition.

 

[LutheranStudent]

1. They have no idea what the Rosary is. They think that by praying the “Hail Mary” we are worshipping Mary. They think that by praying the “Our Father” we are trying to stack up “points” to get into heaven. Meditation on the Mysteries was not even mentioned.

Well, since I cannot comment on specific posts, I will comment in general the things which the WELS teaches. I have never encountered any serious variation among her teachings, so I hope you can appreciate my answers and maybe consider that you took an undue offense or found some unreal connotation in the text of the reply. Here we go, number 1:

I don’t think that you would disagree that you are praying to Mary when you say a “Hail, Mary.” Someone once tried to convince me that it’s not praying, just asking the saints to pray for us. To me that sounds ridiculous. Therefore, for our intents and purposes let’s define praying as addressing spiritual beings through some kind of faith.

Addressing the saints is neither promoted nor even mentioned in the Bible. As the Book of Concord says, “Even if it were possible to petition the saints, we would have everything a thousand times better in Christ.” That is why Lutherans reject the veneration of saints - including Mary, who just as much a sinner as you and I.

Secondly, Yes, Catholics do believe they are earning their way to heaven by saying the rosary. Don’t take the phrase “stacking up points” as literal… We know you don’t actually have a points system. Here’s a snippet

“I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.”

“The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.”

“Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.”

“The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.”

1. The pope is referred to as the anti-christ and a preacher of false doctrine. In every answer he is referred to as such, no examples of the false teaching are given.

Lutheran interpretation of Scripture does say that the Pope is the Anti-Christ. All Biblical evidence says it, too. You cannot say that we have been mis-informed on this point unless you can point to faults in our explaination. Here is a good one… Once again, I reiterate that the Q&A site is not a complete doctrinal work. It seeks to answer only the question asked, each on an individual basis.

1. Veneration is defined as “worship”.

I think littlesheep is taking care of this one…

1. The Catholic Church is referred to as the work of Satan in one of the answers. Again, no citation of how this can be.

Please refer to the statement on the Anti-Christ and realize that when we in Lutheranism refer to churches here on earth we are referring to an institution, identified by its confessions. We have nothing against each individual Catholic as a person, unless they be a false prophet promoting errors in our own church.

 

[LutheranStudent]

1. The Sacrament of Confession is condemned, but Luther himself wrote that Christians are to confess their sins to their ministers.

Confession in and of itself is not condemned. The front of the WELS hymnal provides a liturgy for confession. What we deny is that it is a sacrament. We do not place unScriptural rules on confession - saying that people must do it once a year to a pastor, etc. Rather, we do promote the idea that Christians ought to confess their sins to each other daily. Sunday worship services very commonly have a rite of confession in them, in which the congregation as a whole publicly confesses sin (in a more generic manner) to each other and absolves each other.

1. They state that Catholics do not believe that Christ’s sacrifice was once for all and that the sacrifice of the Mass is a new sacrifice every time, when in truth it is the SAME sacrifice.

Quote:
“The Council of Trent taught that the Mass is the unbloody renewal, or rather re-presentation, of the Sacrifice of Calvary upon the altar.”

This idea is utterly foreign and ridiculous to one who understands that the great sacrafice has been made, once and for all. As Jesus said on the cross, It is finished. This post would perhaps be the best one to link for me, if you can find it again…

1. They think that Catholics beleive the Church Fathers ESTABLISHED doctrine. This is not a Catholic teaching. We believe they taught doctrines the Apostles taught and only doctrines the Apostles taught.

Well, that’s interesting, isn’t it? Guess what?
The RCC believes that traditions, popes, councils, etc, are authorities for establishing doctrine. Although Catholics will try (albeit unconvincingly) to say that the doctrines do not run against Scripture, we find that there are great inconsistencies. Take the rosary, for example. The Bible does not say anything about the rosary and yet you are willing to say it has the mystical power to offer forgivness…Christ offers forgiveness.

1. They say that Catholics teach that all other Christian churches have “false baptisms”. We do not…in fact, we believe that EVERY Christian church that baptizes in the Trinitarian formula is a valid baptism.

Once again, you might have to cite this source. I don’t believe that you actually read this correctly…

1. They say that we believe the pope is equivalent to God. We do not.

Sure you do. Lutheran doctrine says that only God is infallible. Catholics say that about God and the church and the pope - so long as he speaks from his magical chair.

1. They say that Catholics do not believe in salvation by grace alone when that is EXACTLY what we believe.

Grace alone, eh? “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith… Not by works, so…” What Catholics never seem to grasp is the united front that these words take. Maybe you believe that God loved us enough to send His Son, but not quite enough to cover the whole sacrafice. We still gotta work a little. What? Some kinda grace…

There is basically an error (or more than one) in every answer. Why do Lutherans ask Lutherans what Catholics believe rather than ask Catholics what Catholics believe?

Maybe because they know they will get an answer with Scriptural support and backing, since they have been led by the Holy Spirit to believe in Sola Scriptura. Maybe they have a deep appreciation for Lutheran scholarship. Maybe they just don’t want to ask somebody they don’t know. When was the last time you asked a Lutheran what a Lutheran believed? Maybe you were afraid you might understand him.

Blessings,
LutheranStudent

 

[Lazerlike42]

LutheranStudent:

1. They state that Catholics do not believe that Christ’s sacrifice was once for all and that the sacrifice of the Mass is a new sacrifice every time, when in truth it is the SAME sacrifice.

(“http://www.answers.com/topic/mass-1”):
“The Council of Trent taught that the Mass is the unbloody renewal, or rather re-presentation, of the Sacrifice of Calvary upon the altar.”

This idea is utterly foreign and ridiculous to one who understands that the great sacrafice has been made, once and for all. As Jesus said on the cross, It is finished. This post would perhaps be the best one to link for me, if you can find it again…

RE-PRESENTED. Are they so bigoted that they cannot even understand english? I like to watch the Bruins hockey here in Massachusettes. The games are on usually at 1 PM or 7 PM, or 10PM if they are on the west coast. However, sometimes I miss the game because I am busy. This is no problem, because the station represents the game at midnight. Does this mean that the players are actually all on the ice playing the game over again?

1. They think that Catholics beleive the Church Fathers ESTABLISHED doctrine. This is not a Catholic teaching. We believe they taught doctrines the Apostles taught and only doctrines the Apostles taught.

Well, that’s interesting, isn’t it… The Bible does not say anything about the rosary and yet you are willing to say it has the mystical power to offer forgivness…Christ offers forgiveness.

For one, anybody who teaches that the Rosary can offer forgiveness has no idea what they are talking about. Whoever answered that question is either overwhelmingly ignorant or just plain lying. To be honest, most of the answers make me think the individual knows what he is saying is not right but is saying it anyways. Furthermore, just because something is not explicitly in Scripture, it is not “inconsistent.” Is the doctrine of the Trinity inconsistent with Scriptures? What about worshipping on Sunday? What about not honoring the Sabbath, which virtually no Christian (except the SDAs) does?

8. They say that Catholics teach that all other Christian churches have “false baptisms”. We do not…in fact, we believe that EVERY Christian church that baptizes in the Trinitarian formula is a valid baptism.

Once again, you might have to cite this source. I don’t believe that you actually read this correctly…no

interest in actually learning what the Church teaches. He or she is so blinded by bigottry, or so unconcerned with what is actually true, that this is the best answer that can be given. No effort to even look up the Church’s teaching on this point. The Church accepts any and all baptisms so long as the words “I baptize you in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,” are used. Many Christian denominations do this, including most mainstream ones. The only mainstream that doesn’t is the Salvation Army.

 

[Lazerlike42]

1. They say that we believe the pope is equivalent to God. We do not.

Sure you do. Lutheran doctrine says that only God is infallible. Catholics say that about God and the church and the pope - so long as he speaks from his magical chair.

Catholics say that the Pope is infallible only because God protects him from error in certain situations - and it has nothing to do with sitting in a chair. Once more, incredible ignorance is displayed.

In fact, I am going to say right now that Lutherans view the BOC as equivalent to Scripture. Oh you don’t? Surrrrrre you don’t. You do no matter what you say.

See the problem when we start doing this?

1. They say that Catholics do not believe in salvation by grace alone when that is EXACTLY what we believe.

Grace alone, eh? “It is by grace you have been saved, through faith… Not by works, so…” What Catholics never seem to grasp is the united front that these words take. Maybe you believe that God loved us enough to send His Son, but not quite enough to cover the whole sacrafice. We still gotta work a little. What? Some kinda grace…

Does the WELS teach that faith is required? If so, then they are requiring their people to work a little by making the act of having faith. This is work. What about reading the Bible? That is work. What’s more, they need to read verse 10 of this passage: For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. They also fail to read James 2:23, apparently. This is a whole thread (which has been done time and time again).

There is basically an error (or more than one) in every answer. Why do Lutherans ask Lutherans what Catholics believe rather than ask Catholics what Catholics believe?

Maybe because they know they will get an answer with Scriptural support and backing, since they have been led by the Holy Spirit to believe in Sola Scriptura. Maybe they have a deep appreciation for Lutheran scholarship. Maybe they just don’t want to ask somebody they don’t know. When was the last time you asked a Lutheran what a Lutheran believed? Maybe you were afraid you might understand him.

Wait… so Lutherans believe that Scripture will say what Catholics believe? What book is that, the epistle to the Catholics? Does the Bible also teach what Mormons believe? I’ve always been interested in those crazy Mormons…

 

[Matt16_18]

LutheranStudent:

What Catholics never seem to grasp is …

The vast majority of Lutheran sects accept the JOINT DECLARATION ON THE DOCTRINE OF JUSTIFICATION, by the Lutheran World Federation and the Catholic Church.

You seem to belong to the tiny minority of Lutherans that reject the JDDJ. Why don’t you start a new thread to show why the Catholic and Lutheran theologians that wrote the JDDJ are wrong?

 

[Lazerlike42]

1. They have no idea what the Rosary is. They think that by praying the “Hail Mary” we are worshipping Mary. They think that by praying the “Our Father” we are trying to stack up “points” to get into heaven. Meditation on the Mysteries was not even mentioned.

Well, since I cannot comment on specific posts, I will comment in general the things which the WELS teaches. I have never encountered any serious variation among her teachings, so I hope you can appreciate my answers and maybe consider that you took an undue offense or found some unreal connotation in the text of the reply. Here we go, number 1:

I don’t think that you would disagree that you are praying to Mary when you say a “Hail, Mary.” Someone once tried to convince me that it’s not praying, just asking the saints to pray for us. To me that sounds ridiculous. Therefore, for our intents and purposes let’s define praying as addressing spiritual beings through some kind of faith.

Addressing the saints is neither promoted nor even mentioned in the Bible. As the Book of Concord says, “Even if it were possible to petition the saints, we would have everything a thousand times better in Christ.” That is why Lutherans reject the veneration of saints - including Mary, who just as much a sinner as you and I.

The Mary being a sinner is a whole topic. There are plenty of threads on this.

The biggest problem here is that the fellow who answered this wants to define what we mean by terms. We use the word pray in the same way as the dictionary does: to ask. Have you ever seen a Shakesperian play? If so, then you have probably heard one character say to another something like, “I pray you, Please do me this favor.” Is the one person worshipping the second? No, he is asking him to do a favor. Lutherans cannot define Catholic terms no more than Catholics can define Lutheran terms. Would it be right for me to say, “The Book of Concord is a new revelation of Jesus Christ given to Martin Luther?” Of course not, because then I am claiming the Book of Concord is something that Lutherans do not. Similarly, they are claiming we mean something by the word pray that we do not.

Secondly, Yes, Catholics do believe they are earning their way to heaven by saying the rosary. Don’t take the phrase “stacking up points” as literal… We know you don’t actually have a points system. Here’s a snippet

“I shall deliver from purgatory those who have been devoted to the Rosary.”

“The faithful children of the Rosary shall merit a high degree of glory in Heaven.”

“Devotion of my Rosary is a great sign of predestination.”

“The soul which recommends itself to me by the recitation of the Rosary, shall not perish.”

We dot not think we are earning anything2. The pope is referred to as the anti-christ and a preacher of false doctrine. In every answer he is referred to as such, no examples of the false teaching are given.

1. The Catholic Church is referred to as the work of Satan in one of the answers. Again, no citation of how this can be.

Please refer to the statement on the Anti-Christ and realize that when we in Lutheranism refer to churches here on earth we are referring to an institution, identified by its confessions. We have nothing against each individual Catholic as a person, unless they be a false prophet promoting errors in our own church.

Not worth it. In any case, this is a whole other thread, which has been done many times.

 

[Rand_Al_Thor]

LutheranStudent:

Maybe because they know they will get an answer with Scriptural support and backing, since they have been led by the Holy Spirit to believe in Sola Scriptura. Maybe they have a deep appreciation for Lutheran scholarship. Maybe they just don’t want to ask somebody they don’t know. When was the last time you asked a Lutheran what a Lutheran believed? Maybe you were afraid you might understand him.

Blessings,
LutheranStudent

Peace be with you!

I’ll just address this since I have to get to class. I’ll respond to more later.

I think that’s a rather poor answer. Catholics give Scriptural support to most every answer they give. When was the last time I asked a Lutheran what Lutherans believe? Last night. My best friend is a Lutheran and we talk about religion all the time (this is the problem with making assumptions about people you don’t know). Of course, he’s becoming more Catholic with his study of Scripture and the early Church, not from talking with me. He’s also Missouri Synod and can’t stand the WELS.

In Christ,
Rand

 

[Lazerlike42]

Rand Al'Thor:

Peace be with you!

I’ll just address this since I have to get to class. I’ll respond to more later.

I think that’s a rather poor answer. Catholics give Scriptural support to most every answer they give. When was the last time I asked a Lutheran what Lutherans believe? Last night. My best friend is a Lutheran and we talk about religion all the time. Of course, he’s becoming more Catholic with his study of Scripture and the early Church, not from talking with me. He’s also Missouri Synod and can’t stand the WELS.

In Christ,
Rand

Not to mention the fact that teh question asked why Lutherans don’t ask Catholics what Catholics believe, and the answer was that by asking a Lutheran they’ll get a Scriptural answer for what Catholics believe. So in other words, the answer says that Scripture teaches what Catholics believe.

 

[josephdavid]

Well Lutherans in general have drifted away from the original Lutheran Church and what Martin Luther wrote.

Every Lutheran I encounter do not believe that Martin Luther prayed the Rosary.

orthodoxlutheran.fws1.com/

 

[CollegeKid]

Confession in and of itself is not condemned. The front of the WELS hymnal provides a liturgy for confession. What we deny is that it is a sacrament. We do not place unScriptural rules on confession - saying that people must do it once a year to a pastor, etc. Rather, we do promote the idea that Christians ought to confess their sins to each other daily. Sunday worship services very commonly have a rite of confession in them, in which the congregation as a whole publicly confesses sin (in a more generic manner) to each other and absolves each other.

Why would you deny that confession is a sacrament? After breathing on the Apostles and telling them “Receive the Holy Spirit,” Christ told them that “whose sins you forgive, they are forgiven, whose sins you retain, they are retained” (John 20-23). That sounds an awful lot like He gave them the authority to remit sins in His name and thus confer His grace of forgiveness onto penitents, thus making it a sacrament.

LutheranStudent:

1. They state that Catholics do not believe that Christ’s sacrifice was once for all and that the sacrifice of the Mass is a new sacrifice every time, when in truth it is the SAME sacrifice.

(“http://www.answers.com/topic/mass-1”):
“The Council of Trent taught that the Mass is the unbloody renewal, or rather re-presentation, of the Sacrifice of Calvary upon the altar.”

This idea is utterly foreign and ridiculous to one who understands that the great sacrafice has been made, once and for all. As Jesus said on the cross, It is finished. This post would perhaps be the best one to link for me, if you can find it again…

Utterly foreign and ridiculous, huh? What about scriptural references that identify the Lord’s Supper with His body and blood and His sacrifice, like 1 Cor. 10:16-18, in which Paul asks, “The cup of blessing that we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread that we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ? Look at Israel according to the flesh; are not those who eat the sacrifices participants in the altar?” Just because Jesus only physically died once, as a human man, on Calvary to accomplish the once-for-all sacrifice for our sins, how does it lessen that sacrifice to believe that the salvific effects of this sacrifice are made present every day, all over the world, in the Mass? If this is how God chooses to apply the salvation of Christ’s sacrifice on Calvary to the human race, who are you to say that we are lessening His once-for-all sacrifice?

More later. By the way, we don’t believe the Pope is on the same level as God. Don’t presume to tell us what we believe. Yes, we believe he has the gift of infallibility to define matters of faith and morals correctly, and no, we don’t believe he has to be sitting in his “magical” (nothing in Catholic dogma about the Chair of Peter being “magical”) chair to do it, another mischaracterization of our faith on your part. How does God authorizing a man to reveal His truth to the world make that man equal to God? Wasn’t God doing just that in choosing prophets to reveal the truth to Israel in the Old Testament, like in choosing Moses to present the 10 Commandments to the Israelites?