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Brendan
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Or that the inscription above his tomb is an antiphon from the Divine Office for the Feast of the Assumption of the Blessed Virgin.
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Brendan
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LutheranStudent said:
Why should we define ‘prayer’ to be something it is NOT?
I think you’ve forgotten what the verb ‘to pray’ means.
The verb “To pray” means “to ask, to implore, to humbly request”: root is Latin precarae to ask
If you don’t believe me, let’s look at Webster on the subject
A lot of Protestants somehow think the word means “worship”, but look at it’s actual use
What was Gertrude doing here, she was praying to Hamlet, was she not " I pray thee".
But was she worshipping Hamlet? I would be hard pressed to find a single English major would would think she was
So yes, Catholics pray to others; we pray to our bosses for raises, we pray to teachers for more time for our term papers; we pray to our pastors to pray for us to God. my Catholic son prayed to me last night to stay up past bedtime.
But none of that is worship, or addressing spiritual beings.
And I bet you pray like that too.
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Erich
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How 'bout these definitions from the Catechism of the Catholic Church Glossary:
ADORATION: The acknowledgment of God as God, Creator and Savior, the Lord and Master of everything that exists. Through worship and prayer, the Church and individual persons give to God the adoration which is the first act of the virtue of religion. The first commandment of the law obliges us to adore God (2096, 2628; cf. 1083).
**VENERATION (OF SAINTS): **Showing devotion and respect to Mary, the Apostles, and the martyrs, who were viewed as faithful witnesses to faith in Jesus Christ. Later, veneration was given to those who led a life of prayer and self-denial in giving witness to Christ, whose virtues were recognized and publicly proclaimed in their canonization as saints (828). Such veneration is often extended to the relics or remains of those recognized as saints; indeed, to many sacred objects and images. Veneration must be clearly distinguished from adoration and worship, which are due to God alone (1154, 1674, 2132).
WORSHIP: Adoration and honor given to God, which is the first act of the virtue of religion (2096). Public worship is given to God in the Church by the celebration of the Paschal Mystery of Christ in the liturgy (1067).
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Erich
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Wikipedia’s article on Lutheranism states that, in addition to the ELCA, LCMS, and WELS, there are at least 20 smaller Lutheran denominations in the U.S., with many of them being cultural or doctrinal offshoots of the main three.
Pastor Zip’s US Lutheran Web Links page lists over two dozen separate Lutheran synods in the U.S. alone.
I don’t know how many separate Lutheran synods there are throughout the rest of the world.
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Erich
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But, what does the ‘it’ refer to? As Scott Hahn’s article “The Hunt for the Fourth Cup” (in the September 1991 issue of This Rock magazine" points out, Jesus could not possibly have been referring to the completion of our redemption at that moment. For one thing, Paul teaches that our redemption is not complete without Jesus being “raised for our justification” (Rom. 4:25).
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RobNY
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Then why do the Catholic Church and the Orthodox Church both count seven sacraments (although the Orthodox don’t even strictly limit it there, where Catholics start talking about sacramentals which aren’t sacraments)? Let’s be frank when we say that we’ve not been communicating for a thousand years (although the schism occured later), and that even before then that the ties between East and West had been disintegrating. And yet, somehow, both the Orthodox and the Catholics came to separate but indentical conclusions about the various sacraments. It seems to me that the Church had more than enough reason to count seven sacraments.
I do believe that we know what we believe.
Works are necessary as per Christ’s injunction in Matthew 25. If you don’t think works are necessary in this context, then take it up with Jesus. Works don’t earn us salvation. Our salvation is totally gratuitous. But the person who does no works will receive no recompense in heaven-- quite simply, because that is what Jesus said.
And Paul agrees with Jesus in Romans 2:5-8
After all, does not Ephesians 2 continue to remind us:
We’re created for good works. We can hardly do otherwise.
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LutheranStudent
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OK, wow. So to pray means to ask. Let’s completely eliminate the word prayer and simply say “to ask”. To ask the saints triumphant anything is not supported by Lutheran doctrine because there is nothing in Scripture to indicate that they can hear us asking, that we ought to do it, etc… Even if the saints could hear us asking, as the BOC says, we have everything a thousand times better in Christ. (Who we ought to pray to… I mean ask.) Maybe we could play a fun game and find a good descriptor for the verd “to ask” and then pretend that the meaning has changed… (sarcasm)
When I was referring to the pope speaking from his magical chair, I was also employing sarcasm. Please note that sarcasm is not nearly as fun to use when it must be explained. (sarcasm) I maintain the God authorizes chimps to speak his truth ex cathedra. (sarcasm)
We all know that there are a lot of Lutheran synods and splinter groups. We know. We know. We know. Thank you, your point has been duly noted in the captain’s logbook. Now - what is the Catholic church doing to solve this problem?
Martin Luther did not pray the rosary after his conversion to the Evangelical faith. Martin Luther did not die a Roman. He died a Christian member of the Reformation movement known as Lutheranism, a name he despised for it. That movement continues to this day - although much smaller than it once was.
The vast majority of Lutherans have abandoned the historic Lutheran faith and teaching. That’s no secret. All over the internet you can find condemnations of the ELCA and her affiliates from devout informed Lutherans. The ELCA bases her theology on thin air and not much else. She calls herself Lutheran because she came out of Lutheranism - not because she supports the major tenets of the original Christian movement.
United with state churches, etc, under a unionistic agenda, she signed the JDDJ - a document generally recognized as the stupidest thing to come out of Lutheranism since the Zwickau Prophets. If the statement actually meant anything, then the ELCA churches would probably be welcomed into the RCC right now. Doesn’t that just make you proud? You’ve found common ground with a church who’s commonly punned as Every Liberal Cause in America.
When I was referring to the pope speaking from his magical chair, I was also employing sarcasm. Please note that sarcasm is not nearly as fun to use when it must be explained. (sarcasm) I maintain the God authorizes chimps to speak his truth ex cathedra. (sarcasm)
We all know that there are a lot of Lutheran synods and splinter groups. We know. We know. We know. Thank you, your point has been duly noted in the captain’s logbook. Now - what is the Catholic church doing to solve this problem?
Martin Luther did not pray the rosary after his conversion to the Evangelical faith. Martin Luther did not die a Roman. He died a Christian member of the Reformation movement known as Lutheranism, a name he despised for it. That movement continues to this day - although much smaller than it once was.
The vast majority of Lutherans have abandoned the historic Lutheran faith and teaching. That’s no secret. All over the internet you can find condemnations of the ELCA and her affiliates from devout informed Lutherans. The ELCA bases her theology on thin air and not much else. She calls herself Lutheran because she came out of Lutheranism - not because she supports the major tenets of the original Christian movement.
United with state churches, etc, under a unionistic agenda, she signed the JDDJ - a document generally recognized as the stupidest thing to come out of Lutheranism since the Zwickau Prophets. If the statement actually meant anything, then the ELCA churches would probably be welcomed into the RCC right now. Doesn’t that just make you proud? You’ve found common ground with a church who’s commonly punned as Every Liberal Cause in America.
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LutheranStudent
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Uh - oh, RobNY. Better lock your door… I hear the Inquisition coming… You agree with Martin Luther on something…
Works don’t earn us salvation. Our salvation is totally gratuitous. But the person who does no works will receive no recompense in heaven
-RobNY
We must therefore certainly maintain that where there is no faith there also can be no good works; and conversely, that there is no faith where there are no good works. Therefore faith and good works should be so closely joined together that the essence of the entire Christian life consists in both.
-Martin Luther
Hhmmm. So the only real point of contention is what God looks at when a person enters heaven… “Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Works don’t earn us salvation. Our salvation is totally gratuitous. But the person who does no works will receive no recompense in heaven
-RobNY
We must therefore certainly maintain that where there is no faith there also can be no good works; and conversely, that there is no faith where there are no good works. Therefore faith and good works should be so closely joined together that the essence of the entire Christian life consists in both.
-Martin Luther
Hhmmm. So the only real point of contention is what God looks at when a person enters heaven… “Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
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bekalc
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Hhmmm. So the only real point of contention is what God looks at when a person enters heaven… “Man looks at the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at the heart.” “Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness.”
Maybe you need to have a little talk with Jesus then, since He made this comment in Matthew 7, that he is looking at works, and well in many other places in the Gospel too.
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"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
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Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
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Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.’
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12 “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
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The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
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And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
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The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.”
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13 When Jesus finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,
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14 for he taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.
If you want I can give you many parts of the Gospels where Jesus talks about how your going to be judged by your works. LIke the time when he says I was hungry and you didn’t feed me etc…I could even mention that Paul himself says that faith without love is nothing…
I would bring up the Book of James, but seeing as some Lutherans argue that the book shouldn’t be used because at one time it was questioned, I’ll leave it out…
Honestly, though we can sit here and get in a Scripture verse war, where each side counters with Scriptures. I want to point out though that Catholics do think our position is Scriptural, and as a former Protestant seminarian, I can say that I think it does a better job of taking the whole Bible into account, than the Lutheran position. Which is why I’m Catholic.
But in the end it all comes down to how things are interperted. Because even though the Catholic Church did present Scripture verses to Luther, He still was deterimened that His interperation was right. So it comes down to who should be interperting. And once again, that’s another reason I"m Catholic. Because Scripture says the Church. (Not the individual) and the Church leaders…Not to mention Galations which says if any man brings to you a gospel other than the one you have accepted. And the fact that all the other ancient Churches (the Coptics, the Orthodox etc) side with us on this issue.
I have a hard time understanding how you guys can say the individual alone, when well the individuals cannot seem to agree on interpertions of Luther’s theology, much less what the Bible means. Why else would you have so many different versions of well Lutheranism.
Maybe you need to have a little talk with Jesus then, since He made this comment in Matthew 7, that he is looking at works, and well in many other places in the Gospel too.
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"Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, 10 but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven.
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Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
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Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. 11 Depart from me, you evildoers.’
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12 “Everyone who listens to these words of mine and acts on them will be like a wise man who built his house on rock.
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The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. But it did not collapse; it had been set solidly on rock.
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And everyone who listens to these words of mine but does not act on them will be like a fool who built his house on sand.
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The rain fell, the floods came, and the winds blew and buffeted the house. And it collapsed and was completely ruined.”
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13 When Jesus finished these words, the crowds were astonished at his teaching,
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14 for he taught them as one having authority, and not as their scribes.
If you want I can give you many parts of the Gospels where Jesus talks about how your going to be judged by your works. LIke the time when he says I was hungry and you didn’t feed me etc…I could even mention that Paul himself says that faith without love is nothing…
I would bring up the Book of James, but seeing as some Lutherans argue that the book shouldn’t be used because at one time it was questioned, I’ll leave it out…
Honestly, though we can sit here and get in a Scripture verse war, where each side counters with Scriptures. I want to point out though that Catholics do think our position is Scriptural, and as a former Protestant seminarian, I can say that I think it does a better job of taking the whole Bible into account, than the Lutheran position. Which is why I’m Catholic.
But in the end it all comes down to how things are interperted. Because even though the Catholic Church did present Scripture verses to Luther, He still was deterimened that His interperation was right. So it comes down to who should be interperting. And once again, that’s another reason I"m Catholic. Because Scripture says the Church. (Not the individual) and the Church leaders…Not to mention Galations which says if any man brings to you a gospel other than the one you have accepted. And the fact that all the other ancient Churches (the Coptics, the Orthodox etc) side with us on this issue.
I have a hard time understanding how you guys can say the individual alone, when well the individuals cannot seem to agree on interpertions of Luther’s theology, much less what the Bible means. Why else would you have so many different versions of well Lutheranism.
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LutheranStudent
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Firstly, there is no point of Lutheran doctrine that says the “individual alone”… Rather, we simply cleave to the one truth that is revealed in Scripture. That Scripture is battled against and mis-represented, mis-interpreted, etc.
Can I ask you what Protestent group you hail from? I hate to tell you but I refuse to argue in favor of Protestants, because I am not a Protestant. Protestants believe in everything from representation theology of the Lord’s Supper to another testament as in the LDS church. I cannot argue in favor of Evangelicals, because I am not an Evangelical. In fact, I sometimes wonder if I can even argue for Lutherans, because because of groups like ELCA and the WLF.
The Bible never says that true doctrine will forever be found in the RCC.
Can I ask you what Protestent group you hail from? I hate to tell you but I refuse to argue in favor of Protestants, because I am not a Protestant. Protestants believe in everything from representation theology of the Lord’s Supper to another testament as in the LDS church. I cannot argue in favor of Evangelicals, because I am not an Evangelical. In fact, I sometimes wonder if I can even argue for Lutherans, because because of groups like ELCA and the WLF.
The Bible never says that true doctrine will forever be found in the RCC.
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LutheranStudent
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I would bring up the Book of James, but seeing as some Lutherans argue that the book shouldn’t be used because at one time it was questioned, I’ll leave it out…
Yes, Luther for a time regarded James as a book of straw, but we do regonize it as part of the canon. Lutherans do not believe Luther to be inspired or inerrant - he was a human with sin. Be free to bring it up, but realize that I am not ignorant of the rest of Scripture. Reading James in context agrees completely with Lutheran principles.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’
If anything this passage serves to illustrate that our works do not have saving merit. Plus, read the analogy of the fruit trees immediately before this text. Jesus is saying that firstly with the analogy that (1) people’s works (fruit) bear testimony to their faith, and with this text he is saying that (2) works alone cannot save.
Yes, Luther for a time regarded James as a book of straw, but we do regonize it as part of the canon. Lutherans do not believe Luther to be inspired or inerrant - he was a human with sin. Be free to bring it up, but realize that I am not ignorant of the rest of Scripture. Reading James in context agrees completely with Lutheran principles.
Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name? Did we not drive out demons in your name? Did we not do mighty deeds in your name?’
Then I will declare to them solemnly, ‘I never knew you. Depart from me, you evildoers.’
If anything this passage serves to illustrate that our works do not have saving merit. Plus, read the analogy of the fruit trees immediately before this text. Jesus is saying that firstly with the analogy that (1) people’s works (fruit) bear testimony to their faith, and with this text he is saying that (2) works alone cannot save.
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Sherlock
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You need to be more familiar with Scripture, then. Prayer to the saints IS mentioned. I’ll quote Catholic Answers to save time: “As Scripture indicates, those in heaven are aware of the prayers of those on earth. This can be seen, for example, in Revelation 5:8, where John depicts the saints in heaven offering our prayers to God under the form of “golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.” But if the saints in heaven are offering our prayers to God, then they must be aware of our prayers. They are aware of our petitions and present them to God by interceding for us.”
In addition, early inscriptions in the catecombs show that praying to the saints was a practice of the early Church, as the inscriptions ask the deceased to pray for them. Are you asking me to believe that the earliest Christians, those closest to the Apostles, got it all wrong and the truth sat there for 1500 years until Luther discovered it?
Also, your quote about prayers being a “thousand times better in Christ” shows a very typical Protestant habit of looking at things as “either/or”. It’s “both/and” here. If you ask someone to pray for you, are you taking precious time away from God? If so, why? Is God stuck in time, so that He can only hear prayers one at a time, and only those directed solely to Him?
Luther apparently didn’t agree that Mary was “as much a sinner as you and I”. Here’s what he wrote on the subject: “In the first place, she is full of grace, proclaimed to be entirely without sin – something exceedingly great. For God’s grace fills her with everything good and makes her devoid of evil.
In the second place, God is with her, meaning that all she did or left undone is divine and the action of God in her. Moreover, God guarded and protected her from all that might be hurtful to her.”
Also, no one has answered my question about what authority littlesheep—or any Lutheran— has to declare that the" ELCA is no more Lutheran then well let’s say the RCC is Lutheran." The ELCA thinks it’s Lutheran, and presumably they are familiar with the traditions of Lutheran men that define them as Lutherans. Apparently the ELCA sees the Lutheran Confessions as open to interpretation, so why is littlesheep’s interpretation of them correct, and the ELCA’s wrong? Who decides?
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Sherlock
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Catholicism does not profess that “works alone” can save. That’s called Pelagianism, a heresy that was condemned by the Church in the 5th century.
But works (in faith) do matter: when Jesus separates the sheep from the goats, it is those who fed the hungry, clothed the naked, etc. who are saved. In the parable of the rich man and Lazarus, we are never told anything about the rich man’s faith—all we know is that he did not feed the starving man at his door.
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littlesheep
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Lets define the highlight in the above shall we?
John 6: 28 Then they said to him, “What must we do, to be doing he works of God?” 29 Jesus answered them, “This is the work of God, that you believe in him whom he has sent.” humm! believe? don’t sound like works to me.
So agian just what is the will of God?
Lets see. John 6: 38 For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40 For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day."
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RobNY
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What’s this? Perhaps you agree with Catholics on grace much more than you thought.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
**2023 **Sanctifying grace is the gratuitous gift of his life that God makes to us; it is infused by the Holy Spirit into the soul to heal it of sin and to sanctify it.
Seems to me that you’d agree with that statement? Whew. Seems like the Inquisition won’t be coming anyway.
As long as we agree that righteousness is infused, not merely imputed, then perhaps we agree even more than we’d think.
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LutheranStudent
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I never once agreed that righteousness is infused as opposed to imputed…
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Brendan
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No need to get rid of the word “prayer”, as it means to “humbly ask”, so pray is generally a lot easier to say then always putting in the adjective Humbly.
And as far as have a 1000 times better in Christ, I suppose that means that Lutherans don’t ask their pastors to pray for them, or anyone else.
After all, why bother asking a fellow human to pray for you when you have a “1000 times better in Christ”
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Brendan
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RobNY
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Nor did I imply that you agreed.
I merely hoped that you would. Alas.Nevertheless. Can you hear it?
You know. That sound. Like water rushing down a stream.
The Tiber. She’s beckoning you to swim her. Now, don’t be shy.
Look across the way, it’s Papa Bene! He’s waving!
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Sherlock
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You should read the whole Bible, not just bits and pieces. Of course belief is essential (no one here is saying that it’s optional), however, as I have noted above, Catholicism does NOT teach that works alone saves—that is a heresy called Pelagianism, which was condemned by the Church in the 5th century. However, you should look at what else Jesus says, both directly and in parables. For example, when judging between the sheep and the goats (Matthew 25:31-46), works (feeding the hungy, clothing the naked, etc) is how the two groups are judged. The rich man’s faith (in the parable with Lazarus) is never commented upon, but he is judged for a sin of omission, for not helping the starving man at his door. In Matthew 10:42, Jesus says, “And whoever gives to one of these little ones even a cup of cold water because he is a disciple, truly, I say to you, he shall not lose his reward”—which implies that if the disciple does not extend charity, he can lose his reward. And in John 6:53-54: “So Jesus said to them, truly, truly, I say to you, unles you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life…”. (The Eucharist). So you see, it’s not quite as you present it. It’s not either works or faith, it’s both/and. It is very typical of Protestants to set these dichotomies up, dichotomies that are not found in Scripture. Scripture is meant to be taken as a whole, not pieces of it used to support one’s particular personal doctrine.
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