Anti-Catholic

[Keikiolu]

Quote:Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

What you’re TRYING to say is that some people hate the dogmas of the Church. That is true, mostly because they don’t know what those dogmas actually are, and because the dogmas of the Church would restrict them from hurting themselves (and others).

.
or how those doctrines have been lived out by some catholics throughout history.

ALL people sin, and it’s a terrible thing that Catholic people cause scandal.

But,… it’s not that an anti-Catholic sinner can point to a Catholic sinner to justify their own sin, but that the Church HAS standards of behavior that OFFENDS them.

The greatest HATE generator against the Church is the mere fact that there are standards. People who are anti-Catholic are ALWAYS those who consider their behavior as limited ONLY by themselves.

The trailer-trash anthem: “Don’t you JUDGE me…!!”

 

[AgnosTheist]

The Body of Christ.

And the Body of Christ refers to the faithful. Its still the people.

See the 10 Commandments, and explanations for basing behavior on them as per the CCC (catechism).

What is your point in asking the obvious? Do you not agree with my statement(s), and if not why?

if it was obvious i wouldnt be asking for it. now the 10 commanments, i dont think there is much difference on how catholics, protestants, jews & even muslims see them. so how could you say that it is a catholic dogma that restricts anti-catholic protestants, jews, muslims & atheists from hurting themselves? and what does this have to do with anti-catholic hatred?

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
The Body of Christ.

And the Body of Christ refers to the faithful. Its still the people.

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p2.htm#805

Once again, do some research before speaking. As an example, The Church, the Body of Christ, is the faithful alive, in purgatory and in heaven, and has as it’s head Jesus.

Jesus is a bit different from “the people”.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*See the 10 Commandments, and explanations for basing behavior on them as per the CCC (catechism).

What is your point in asking the obvious? Do you not agree with my statement(s), and if not why?*

if it was obvious i wouldnt be asking for it. now the 10 commanments, i dont think there is much difference on how catholics, protestants, jews & even muslims see them. so how could you say that it is a catholic dogma that restricts anti-catholic protestants, jews, muslims & atheists from hurting themselves?

You might want to look up the word “Catholic” (universal).

Morals and ethics are derived from God’s law. If one acts contrary to God’s law, then one is hurting oneself and others.

Catholic dogma is the best interpretation of God’s law.

People who don’t think it’s “evil” to disobey God’s law, who HATE God’s law, hate the Church, because they don’t like being told what to do.

Catholic dogma prohibits people from hurting themselves and others, but it can’t enforce it’s prohibitions (without the willing participation of those people). People are free to do as they like.

Once again,… what is your point?

 

[bengal_fan]

ALL people sin, and it’s a terrible thing that Catholic people cause scandal.

i agree, all sin. but this isn’t a discussion of “all”, it’s a discussion of why people might be “anti-catholic”. and i said that one of the reasons is because there are many, many examples throughout history of people in the church (notice i didn’t say the church but “people” in the church… of course many of these “people” were those in power within the church so it is hard for some to separate the two) using the dogmas of the church to perform horrific acts, especially acts of persecution.

But,… it’s not that an anti-Catholic sinner can point to a Catholic sinner to justify their own sin, but that the Church HAS standards of behavior that OFFENDS them.

The greatest HATE generator against the Church is the mere fact that there are standards. People who are anti-Catholic are ALWAYS those who consider their behavior as limited ONLY by themselves.

The trailer-trash anthem: “Don’t you JUDGE me…!!”

i would disagree with you here. all churches have standards. the people who belong to those churches (for the most part) agree to live by those standards. i don’t think it has anything to do with standards. i think it begins with a misunderstanding about church doctrine. but that misunderstanding and misinterpretation usually starts with it being lived out wrongly in those who profess to be part of the church. when others see and hear these wrong interpretations from people within, they conclude that that is what the church teaches. they see that teaching as wrong and feel they must share “the truth”. this sharing is often done, not in love, very impolitely and is then labeled “anti-catholic”. but i think it begins with catholics not being properly catechised and then living out the faith wrong. i think it also begins with the numerous times throughout history the catholic church has been downright cruel (just as the protestant church has been, but that is another discussion). Jesus said it best, “you can judge a tree by the fruit it produces.” if the catholic church (especially here in america) is going to continue to produce poor fruit (not in acts of service mind you but in the people that are coming out of the church not knowing anything or knowing what to believe, but just going through the motions until they are stirred by a protestant/mormom/muslim/jehovah’s witness/etc. and end up leaving the church) then people are going to continue to have a problem with the catholic church. i would say i am very far from being anti-catholic. i respect the church and what she has been able to preserve from us. i feel that protestants in a lot of ways threw out the baby with the bathwater. i wrestle daily with how can we resolve this split.

 

[bengal_fan]

i promise you that if the catholic church here in america was full of catholics joyfully living out catholic doctrine, you would see a huge rush of people coming back to the catholic church or leaving protestantism for catholicism. the problem is you don’t see very many of those people.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
ALL people sin, and it’s a terrible thing that Catholic people cause scandal.

i agree, all sin. but this isn’t a discussion of “all”, it’s a discussion of why people might be “anti-catholic”. and i said that one of the reasons is because there are many, many examples throughout history of people in the church (notice i didn’t say the church but “people” in the church… of course many of these “people” were those in power within the church so it is hard for some to separate the two) using the dogmas of the church to perform horrific acts, especially acts of persecution.

Scandal is bad. Agreed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*But,… it’s not that an anti-Catholic sinner can point to a Catholic sinner to justify their own sin, but that the Church HAS standards of behavior that OFFENDS them.

The greatest HATE generator against the Church is the mere fact that there are standards. People who are anti-Catholic are ALWAYS those who consider their behavior as limited ONLY by themselves.

The trailer-trash anthem: “Don’t you JUDGE me…!!” *

i would disagree with you here. all churches have standards. the people who belong to those churches (for the most part) agree to live by those standards. i don’t think it has anything to do with standards. i think it begins with a misunderstanding about church doctrine.

Doctrines are standards. When people see a difference between Catholic doctrine and “their” doctrine, they (tend to) hate Catholic doctrine, whether their understanding of Catholic doctrine is correct or not.

My point is that the actual hatred is generated by their not accepting the truth of Catholic doctrine, whether they know what they’re talking about or not.

but that misunderstanding and misinterpretation usually starts with it being lived out wrongly in those who profess to be part of the church.

While scandalous behavior of Catholics is very bad, the majority of the people in this secular culture don’t want to be told what to do, or what is “correct”, and react against their “oppressors” with hateful acts.

…that we give them great ammunition to fire at us is just a bonus for them.

…{snip}…

 

[Keikiolu]

i promise you that if the catholic church here in america was full of catholics joyfully living out catholic doctrine, you would see a huge rush of people coming back to the catholic church or leaving protestantism for catholicism. the problem is you don’t see very many of those people.

I’m with 'ya…!!

 

[AgnosTheist]

scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p2.htm#805

Once again, do some research before speaking. As an example, The Church, the Body of Christ, is the faithful alive, in purgatory and in heaven, and has as it’s head Jesus.

Jesus is a bit different from “the people”.

I dont think you understood what it said:

805 The Church is the Body of Christ. Through the Spirit and his action in the sacraments, above all the Eucharist, Christ, who once was dead and is now risen, establishes the community of believers as his own Body.

Catholicism distinguishes between the body & the head. Jesus is the head, the people are the body.

You might want to look up the word “Catholic” (universal).

Morals and ethics are derived from God’s law. If one acts contrary to God’s law, then one is hurting oneself and others.

Catholic dogma is the best interpretation of God’s law.

People who don’t think it’s “evil” to disobey God’s law, who HATE God’s law, hate the Church, because they don’t like being told what to do.

Catholic dogma prohibits people from hurting themselves and others, but it can’t enforce it’s prohibitions (without the willing participation of those people). People are free to do as they like.

Once again,… what is your point?

I thought you have something uniquely Roman Catholic to discuss.

 

[bengal_fan]

Doctrines are standards. When people see a difference between Catholic doctrine and “their” doctrine, they (tend to) hate Catholic doctrine, whether their understanding of Catholic doctrine is correct or not.

My point is that the actual hatred is generated by their not accepting the truth of Catholic doctrine, whether they know what they’re talking about or not.

and i disagree. i think there can be genuine disagreement yet have no hatred exist. Augustine says, “in essentials, unity. in non-essentials, charity.” he knew there would be disagreements. but there can be things we “agree to disagree” on. i think you are speaking way too generally to say that as soon as some one disagrees with catholic doctrine, they hate catholicism.

While scandalous behavior of Catholics is very bad, the majority of the people in this secular culture don’t want to be told what to do, or what is “correct”, and react against their “oppressors” with hateful acts.

…that we give them great ammunition to fire at us is just a bonus for them.

and i don’t think that is true. why then are there lots of growing churches out there. all of which have standards. many of them have much stricter standards than catholicism.

 

[DB_AND_ALI]

Again, does anyone know anything about: A. Jan Marcussen? And here is another; Does anyone know anything about Rand Windburn? Rand has a site called iconbusters.com or .org. It is REALLY blasphemus. Especially the anti-christ photo album.

No…sorry ; but has anybody heard of Rebecca Brown MD ? I have just read her book : Prepare for War ! WOW…The entire chapter 11 is devoted to war against our church and it will really make you ill when you read the gumph written about us ! She basically says that we are satan worshippers ! The saddest part is that there are three new copies of the book in our rather small , local library. Oh well …i suppose it’s called freedom of speech / democracy . In the beginning of the book she makes special mention of and gives thanks to Jack Chick for his contributions !!! The best we can all do is purchase a few of Scott Hahn’s great books and place them in our local libraries , so folk have more of a CHOICE ! Imagine if every Catholic did this all over the world , I have no doubt that it would at least prevent a few souls from being led astray…or we can sit back and allow folk to be indoctrinated by false prophets. Any thoughts…?

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
scborromeo.org/ccc/p123a9p2.htm#805

Once again, do some research before speaking. As an example, The Church, the Body of Christ, is the faithful alive, in purgatory and in heaven, and has as it’s head Jesus.

Jesus is a bit different from “the people”.

I dont think you understood what it said:

805 The Church is the Body of Christ. Through the Spirit and his action in the sacraments, above all the Eucharist, Christ, who once was dead and is now risen, establishes the community of believers as his own Body. Catholicism distinguishes between the body & the head. Jesus is the head, the people are the body.

So,… your HEAD is not part of your BODY…?

Your contortions of logic are magnificent…!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*You might want to look up the word “Catholic” (universal).

Morals and ethics are derived from God’s law. If one acts contrary to God’s law, then one is hurting oneself and others.

Catholic dogma is the best interpretation of God’s law.

People who don’t think it’s “evil” to disobey God’s law, who HATE God’s law, hate the Church, because they don’t like being told what to do.

Catholic dogma prohibits people from hurting themselves and others, but it can’t enforce it’s prohibitions (without the willing participation of those people). People are free to do as they like.

Once again,… what is your point? *

I thought you have something uniquely Roman Catholic to discuss.

So then,… you have no point. My point was that people hate the Church because it tells them what to do, in certain areas of life, and (unwise) people don’t like being told what to do (even by utterly wise authority) because they consider themselves the only valid authority.

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
*Doctrines are standards. When people see a difference between Catholic doctrine and “their” doctrine, they (tend to) hate Catholic doctrine, whether their understanding of Catholic doctrine is correct or not.

My point is that the actual hatred is generated by their not accepting the truth of Catholic doctrine, whether they know what they’re talking about or not.*

and i disagree. i think there can be genuine disagreement yet have no hatred exist.

I do too. But many people see any difference with their belief system as an attack on their belief system, which generates hatred.

My argument is that it is not SCANDAL (of “bad Catholics”) that draws hatred toward the Church, but HATRED of doctrinal differences that draws notice of scandalous Catholic behavior from without the Church.

Augustine says, “in essentials, unity. in non-essentials, charity.” he knew there would be disagreements. but there can be things we “agree to disagree” on.

Hear hear…! The ability to agree to disagree is sorely lacking these days. Of course, that ability has always been rare.

i think you are speaking way too generally to say that as soon as some one disagrees with catholic doctrine, they hate catholicism.

What I’m saying is that the major reason that one who hates the Church does so is because of the difference between their doctrine and Catholic doctrine.

Only those who WANT to hate, hate. It’s not automatic. But the reason that they want to hate is their being “uneducated” about, or simply defiant toward, Catholic doctrine, and NOT because of the scandal of “bad Catholics”.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif
While scandalous behavior of Catholics is very bad, the majority of the people in this secular culture don’t want to be told what to do, or what is “correct”, and react against their “oppressors” with hateful acts.

…that we give them great ammunition to fire at us is just a bonus for them.

and i don’t think that is true. why then are there lots of growing churches out there. all of which have standards. many of them have much stricter standards than catholicism.

These “growing churches” allow their members to do as their members WISH to do. People join churches because their doctrines coincide with what they (the members) want to do.

The reason that so many of these churches are (various grades of) anti-Catholic is because of the DIFFERENCE between our doctrines, not because we both HAVE doctrines,… regardless of the relative “strictness” of those standards.

People who DON’T want to be told what to do congregate with those who also don’t want to be told what to do, and their mutual agreement as to what they DO like to be told what to do becomes their doctrine.

The difference between their WANTS and THE TRUTH highlight the “evilness” (in their eyes) of the Catholic Church, which spawns their hatred of the perceived “evil”.

 

[AgnosTheist]

So,… your HEAD is not part of your BODY…?

Your contortions of logic are magnificent…!

You are being too literal. The head is often distinguised from the body. And your article clearly defines the “Body of Christ” as the community of believers. The point is, its not the community/CC that anti-catholics hate. What they hate is the what the community/CC believes.

So then,… you have no point. My point was that people hate the Church because it tells them what to do, in certain areas of life, and (unwise) people don’t like being told what to do (even by utterly wise authority) because they consider themselves the only valid authority.

You are being too paranoid. Of course I have no point, I was just trying to clarify what you said!

 

[Maria1212]

I received National Sunday Law book in my mailbox too. When I read it I was shocked at what it said. At the time I did not know if what it said was true or not. I am a person that thinks for themselves and does not follow the herd just because someone told me to. I research and need to see for myself what the sources say. After a year of research, studying the Bible and reading statements and doctrines in the Catholic Catechisms and other Catholic books, I have been able to verify that everything that Jan Marcuassen recorded in the National Sunday Law book is factual. I know it is hard to believe the truth, especially when it may hurt. But the truth will make you free. And Jesus is the Truth. So if you love Jesus you can not possibly hate truth. No one is attacking individual Catholics as there are many loving people in all denominations and backgrounds. It is the doctrine and the history of the Catholic institution that sets it apart from the teachings of the Bible. People must study their Bibles and trust in the Word of God, not man. If your teacher is teaching something contrary to Scriptures then know for a fact that that teacher is not of God. I love all people and mean well in my statements here. I just felt the need to share my testimony of this book, since someone inquired. Jesus said that the way others will know if we are His deciples is by the way we love one another. I hope we can share love and not hate, and grow in truth! Amen

It is the Catholic Church that compiled and preserved the Bible. Catholics love both the written and oral word of God. The National Sunday Law book on the other hand, is filled with deception. Rather than reinvent the wheel on this particular book, you can do a search here at CAF to see why.

I recommend you read the book Where We Got the Bible. Our Debt to the Catholic Church. It is available from Amazon or right here at CAF. Moreover, Catholic teaching is based on the Bible!! Steve Ray has written a great book on this, also available here at CAF or from Amazon.

As a side note, CATHOLICS LOVE JESUS!! After all, he founded our Church!! Not only did he found our Church, he promised that not even the gates of hell would prevail against it.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

 

[qui_est_ce]

As a side note, CATHOLICS LOVE JESUS!! After all, he founded our Church!! Not only did he found our Church, he promised that not even the gates of hell would prevail against it.

Sincerely,

Maria1212

We Catholics love the Bible so much, we preserved it during the dark ages. Our Catholic monks devoted their lives as human printing presses to make this greatest of books available to all. Catholics even had it translated by St. Jerome into the common language of the people -Latin, so that anyone could read it. For those who could not read, the CC gave us the Stations of the Cross, the Rosary, artwork, stained glass windows to teach the Bible.

We love Jesus so much, we even feed on His body and Blood, for

John 6:53-58
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
Just as the living Father sent me and I have life because of the Father, so also the one who feeds on me will have life because of me.
This is the bread that came down from heaven. Unlike your ancestors who ate and still died, whoever eats this bread will live forever."

 

[AgnosTheist]

We Catholics love the Bible so much, we preserved it during the dark ages. Our Catholic monks devoted their lives as human printing presses to make this greatest of books available to all.

Protestant roots came from the Catholic church. So the bible compilation is as much their heritage as yours.

 

[qui_est_ce]

Protestant roots came from the Catholic church. So the bible compilation is as much their heritage as yours.

The original poster accused Catholics of not being Biblical. :tsktsk:

 

[qui_est_ce]

The original poster accused Catholics of not being Biblical. :tsktsk:

Agnus and Cont, aren’t you getting tired of hearing the same old stupid arguments that the CC doesn’t follow the Bible by people who have no concept of where the Bible came from (like it dropped out of the sky into Martin Luther’s lap). Don’t you wish they would read a little history before coming here and opening their mouths confirming their ignorance? :yawn:

 

[qui_est_ce]

Hey, I just noticed I’m a senior member!! :dancing:

 

[Keikiolu]

Quote:Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

So,… your HEAD is not part of your BODY…?

Your contortions of logic are magnificent…!
You are being too literal. The head is often distinguised from the body. And your article clearly defines the “Body of Christ” as the community of believers. The point is, its not the community/CC that anti-catholics hate. What they hate is the what the community/CC believes.

Firstly, let’s see what happens when your head is removed from your body. Very soon your decapitated body becomes something other than a decapitated body. If you choose to think of a head as NOT a part of the body, that’s fine, but it shows how your mind works quite well indeed.

Secondly, the Church does define the Head as part of the body, as well as those who have died in the faith, as well as the saints, which you most likely also don’t think of as the body of Christ.

(( Simply by calling Christ the HEAD, the Church defines Him as a part of the body, just as describing your arm as “your arm” it is defined as the “arm” part of your body. Your self serving nonsensical definitions are what you MUST do to make your “philosophy” make any sense at all. That alone should give you a clue that you’re on the wrong track, buckeroo. ))

Thirdly, you are correct that what people hate about the Church are Her beliefs. People very VERY often hate what they think they disagree with as regards “rules of conduct”, because they consider themselves the measure of all things, in other words, they make a god out of themselves and in doing rail in hatred at God.

Quote:Originally Posted by Keikiolu forums.catholic-questions.org/images/buttons_cad/viewpost.gif

So then,… you have no point. My point was that people hate the Church because it tells them what to do, in certain areas of life, and (unwise) people don’t like being told what to do (even by utterly wise authority) because they consider themselves the only valid authority.
You are being too paranoid. Of course I have no point, I was just trying to clarify what you said!

Is what I said clarified for you?

And how am I being paranoid? Are you projecting again?

Mahalo ke Akua…!
E pili mau na pomaikai ia oe. Aloha nui.