Anti-Catholicism

[wisdomseeker]

Hi…I was raised Catholic from the time I was born until I went to college and I left. I for one do not hate the Church at all. I disagree with many of its doctrins. I went to private Catholic shcools all my life including college. It was there that for the third time statements on faith changed. I know only one thing. Gods word does not change. “It is the same yesterday, today and always.” There is one way to the Father and that is through Jesus Christ…Romans 10:9-12 Pick a bible. It was through the spilling of His blood that we were saved or given another chance to enter Heaven. The theif was non denominational, not baptised and because of His faith in Christ he went to heaven with the Lord. I am not saying you should not be baptized, however Christ was 30, He is our example…it was His choice, as it ours when we reach the age of reason. No one made the choice for Him. I was rebaptized at 31. My choice. I know when we stand before the white throne judgment we will not be asked what church you attended, only are you born again washed in the blood of Jesus… Not literaly of course, but have you asked Him to be Lord of your life. There is nothing above Him, no church or man. You cannot find anywhere in scripture that proclaims Catholisizim. Read the word of God, follow that and no one will mislead you. God bless…If you come across " and upon this rock I will build my church…It was talking about Christ, not Peter. They refer to Christ is 5 other parts of the bible at least as being the rock, or the cornerstone that was rejected. keep inn touch

and just how would you know just by reading the Bible what Jesus meant? i dont see it written where Jesus says upon Me the Rock I will built my Church. how did you come up with this conclusion? besides, if Jesus says He would build a Church, when do you think this Church was built? after the Bible was printed?

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Catholics DO NOT worship Mary. We worship only the Triune God. We revere Mary as Jesus’ mother and pray to her for her help in asking Jesus for favors, much as you would ask some one to pray for you or others. I hope this clears it up.

Also, as an added note: we DO NOT pray to, or worship statues. Much as you
keep a photograph of a loved one in your pocket, or a statue is made to honor someone
notable, we have statues to honor and remind us of these saints that are in heaven. We also revere and pray to them for their help since they are much closer to God than we are.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I know all of that, remember I was a C. But you are to pary only to God, Jesus, the Holy Spiirit. I have tried to explain to peole that the statues are only art, I know all of that and am not attacking you on those or any other points such as those. However I donot pray to the pictures etc. that I keep in my pocket or at home. They are just reminders of who tthey are. It does not say to pray to them ANYWHERE. It does say that the ONLY way to the Father is throught Jesus, He is our mediator. Although the people in heaven are obviously with the Lord, they have no greater connection than that, and nowhere does it say they do. Do you pray to a friend or relitative that is now with the Lord? I do ask Jesus to say hello to my father, and tell him that I love hi, sometimes because it makes me feel better, but I would never pray to my father because the prayer would be unheard.

The only example of Jesus doing something His mother asked was at the wedding when H turned water into wine, and He repremanded her by telling her it was not yet His time…It never happened again. Although she is very special, she is not to be prayed to. If you can show me where it says we may, or to the “saints” then I will understand this. Remember I used to do the same thing. I prayed to Mary. I used to say
Jesus, Mary and Joseph save souls" repeatedly when I was a little girl…The only one that counted was Jesus. Neither Mary or Joseph could save anything. If that was the case anyone could have died on the cross. I really do understand and am not putting you down in any way. I have been where you are. You have never been where I am. God Bless and I realy do enjoy talking with you . I hope we continue to do more.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I know all of that, remember I was a C. But you are to pary only to God, Jesus, the Holy Spiirit. I have tried to explain to peole that the statues are only art, I know all of that and am not attacking you on those or any other points such as those. However I donot pray to the pictures etc. that I keep in my pocket or at home. They are just reminders of who tthey are. It does not say to pray to them ANYWHERE. It does say that the ONLY way to the Father is throught Jesus, He is our mediator. Although the people in heaven are obviously with the Lord, they have no greater connection than that, and nowhere does it say they do. Do you pray to a friend or relitative that is now with the Lord? I do ask Jesus to say hello to my father, and tell him that I love hi, sometimes because it makes me feel better, but I would never pray to my father because the prayer would be unheard.

The only example of Jesus doing something His mother asked was at the wedding when H turned water into wine, and He repremanded her by telling her it was not yet His time…It never happened again. Although she is very special, she is not to be prayed to. If you can show me where it says we may, or to the “saints” then I will understand this. Remember I used to do the same thing. I prayed to Mary. I used to say
Jesus, Mary and Joseph save souls" repeatedly when I was a little girl…The only one that counted was Jesus. Neither Mary or Joseph could save anything. If that was the case anyone could have died on the cross. I really do understand and am not putting you down in any way. I have been where you are. You have never been where I am. God Bless and I realy do enjoy talking with you . I hope we continue to do more.

have you ever read the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus? who is the rich man talking to? who is he asking for help? please read the Parable.

many have been where you are then reverted back. therefore being where you are does not mean you are in the right place. many thought the same as you, nevertherless they found out later they were not in the right place.

Peace.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Catholics worship God in the form of the Trinity- Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Mary & Saints are not worshipped like God. They are revered. We pray to Mary and the Saints in the way that they will pray or intercede on our behalf to God. We love God, so we love Mary, the woman that was chosen to bring Christ into the world.

As a former C, I understand what you have said . The fact is you are not to pray to anyone or through anyone but Christ Jesus…the Son who is a part of the Trinity. So in praying to Him you reach God.Gal. 3:19-20,1Tim.2-5 “For there is one God and ONE mediator between God and men, The man Christ Jesus;”
Now you can say anything you want, but this is what the Bible says. It says that in the King James version and the Catholic version…No saint, and not Mary is a mediator to God for us. ONLY Jesus. As for intercessory pray…

Romans 8:26-27 “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities, for we know not what we we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings wich cannot be uttered. And he that seacheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, beause He maketh intercession for the saint according to the will of God”

Romans 8:34 “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again who is even at the right hand of God who also maketh intercession for us”

Hewbrews 7: 25 “Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.” This whole area is speaking of Christ He is the Great High Priest. Because He is an everlasting priest and has made the only true atonement or sin, He is able to save from all sin to the uttermost, in all places, at all times and under all circumatances. The condition of SALVATION is coming to God by Him. God sent His only begotten Son…

These are the reasons that I do not pray to or think I am getting through to God by ANYONE but Jesus. That is what the WORD says. I don’t care what any church teaches, if it does not line up with the Word of God I do not hear it. Tradition is fine, but it has nothing to do with salvation, or praying. Show me please, were the WORD of GOd says, that we pray to Mary or the saints to get to God. I think it grieves Mary. I cannot wait to Meet her and the other saints, but I will not pray to her thinking she has an “in” with Jesus we do not have. Just show me “in the WORD”, not according to the church, where this is acceptable by God. I am not being harsh or anything, so please don’t take it that way. Its hard to write in a tone of voice if you know what I mean. My tone is soft, and my words are gentle. God bless

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Ok, Leslie. Thank you for explaining your position. I understand your reasons, even though
I do not agree with them. May I ask you why then, the way you feel and understand, did
Jesus found a Church ( an assembly of worshippers ), give the apostles authority to bind
and loose on earth and the authority to forgive sins and tell Peter to feed His sheep if He
only wanted you to go direct to Him alone? I thought by His doing all this that everything
done by the Church went direct to Him. Also the Church hasNOT changed
any of His or the Apostles teachings or Traditions. The only thing that may have changed
is the understanding, or the method presented, of these teachings which in no way
afffects them. The Church has the authority to do this.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I believe that Jesus is the Rock, and it refers to that throughout the Bible. I will look it up for you, but not right now O.K. . Peter was one of the apostles , and they all went out to preach the word of God, however not until Penticost. That is when the tongues of fire dropped and endued ALL that were there with power. To put it in laymans term, kick butt mentality. They were unafraid and really preached. These men were preaching to the Jews. Gods chosen people. Paul is the one that preached to the Gentiles and that is why sometimes he butted heads with some of the other apostles. Paul was an agressive educated man before when he was killing Christians, and was just as agressive when he was preaching the word. God Uses us as he finds us. He just brings out the good as he did with Paul. He became humble, but not quiet, and grieved because of his past life. He and Peter sometimes were at odds, but they were at different areas preacing the word. God knocked Paul of his horse and blinded him to get his attention. He was blind for 3 days. Did god call Paul for a lesser possition…No a different one. One for the Jews the other the Gentiles. I follow neither man…I follow Christ. That is who they followed…to the death. Peter on the cross inverted, because he wanted it upsid down as he did not find himself equil to Christ, and the crusifixion was because he was a Jew. Paul was beheaded because he was a Roman citizen, and they could not crusify him. Both gave thiers lives for Christ and the gospel, as have thousands since, and still are. Alll of this is in the Word. So if Peter was chosen for one church Paul must have been for the other, because God definetly chose him, and not to be under Peter…Therefore, they are both under Christ…The true head of the Church…Lets just call it the Church of Christ. I don’t meand that denomination, please do NOT misunderstand. I simple mean Christ is the Head of the Church. Not Peter, not Paul. But Christ, the Son of the Almighty God Jehovah.

 

[GeorgeSword]

I will leave the debate on the matter of Intercessory prayer in Scripture to another person, since, though I love Scripture, I am far from an expert on it, though I hope to be so some day!
What do you say of the wonderful graces we experience through intercessory prayer? Don’t get me wrong, I take enormous joy in speaking to God with my own words, telling Him how I feel and how I love Him and praising Him, and also with the words of others, with those things kept in my heart. But I also take a great deal of joy in knowing that the Blessed Mother and the saints are praying for me.
After I say the Rosary each night, I feel wonderful. I really can’t describe the joy it brings to my heart, and the difference in brings, either. I feel less tempted so long as I do these things, not because I feel in my heart that Mary is going to help me, but because I know in my heart that she is praying for me and God is hearing those prayers, and it is through Him that I experience these feelings and am tempted less, that it is through Him that these graces are bestowed. These same feelings come when I say my Divine Mercy chaplet, so it is not simply because it is intercessory prayer, but simply because God is acting in my life. I don’t see how anyone could not believe that the saints pray for us and that their prayers make a difference, if they have experienced or heard of these things which they do for us.

 

[wisdomseeker]

I will leave the debate on the matter of Intercessory prayer in Scripture to another person, since, though I love Scripture, I am far from an expert on it, though I hope to be so some day!
What do you say of the wonderful graces we experience through intercessory prayer? Don’t get me wrong, I take enormous joy in speaking to God with my own words, telling Him how I feel and how I love Him and praising Him, and also with the words of others, with those things kept in my heart. But I also take a great deal of joy in knowing that the Blessed Mother and the saints are praying for me.
After I say the Rosary each night, I feel wonderful. I really can’t describe the joy it brings to my heart, and the difference in brings, either. I feel less tempted so long as I do these things, not because I feel in my heart that Mary is going to help me, but because I know in my heart that she is praying for me and God is hearing those prayers, and it is through Him that I experience these feelings and am tempted less, that it is through Him that these graces are bestowed. These same feelings come when I say my Divine Mercy chaplet, so it is not simply because it is intercessory prayer, but simply because God is acting in my life. I don’t see how anyone could not believe that the saints pray for us and that their prayers make a difference, if they have experienced or heard of these things which they do for us.

Amen to that.

as we know from Scriptures that God always spoke through man whom He chose and not because someone picked up Scriptures and started imagine and believing that God was speaking to them.

Peace

 

[wisdomseeker]

As a former C, I understand what you have said . The fact is you are not to pray to anyone or through anyone but Christ Jesus…the Son who is a part of the Trinity. So in praying to Him you reach God.Gal. 3:19-20,1Tim.2-5 “For there is one God and ONE mediator between God and men, The man Christ Jesus;”
Now you can say anything you want, but this is what the Bible says. It says that in the King James version and the Catholic version…No saint, and not Mary is a mediator to God for us. ONLY Jesus. As for intercessory pray…

Romans 8:26-27 “Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities, for we know not what we we should pray for as we ought, but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings wich cannot be uttered. And he that seacheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, beause He maketh intercession for the saint according to the will of God”

Romans 8:34 “Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again who is even at the right hand of God who also maketh intercession for us”

Hewbrews 7: 25 “Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by Him, seeing He ever liveth to make intercession for them.” This whole area is speaking of Christ He is the Great High Priest. Because He is an everlasting priest and has made the only true atonement or sin, He is able to save from all sin to the uttermost, in all places, at all times and under all circumatances. The condition of SALVATION is coming to God by Him. God sent His only begotten Son…

These are the reasons that I do not pray to or think I am getting through to God by ANYONE but Jesus. That is what the WORD says. I don’t care what any church teaches, if it does not line up with the Word of God I do not hear it. Tradition is fine, but it has nothing to do with salvation, or praying. Show me please, were the WORD of GOd says, that we pray to Mary or the saints to get to God. I think it grieves Mary. I cannot wait to Meet her and the other saints, but I will not pray to her thinking she has an “in” with Jesus we do not have. Just show me “in the WORD”, not according to the church, where this is acceptable by God. I am not being harsh or anything, so please don’t take it that way. Its hard to write in a tone of voice if you know what I mean. My tone is soft, and my words are gentle. God bless

Leslie, do you believe Scriptures contradicts one another?

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Ok, Leslie. Thank you for explaining your position. I understand your reasons, even though
I do not agree with them. May I ask you why then, the way you feel and understand, did
Jesus found a Church ( an assembly of worshippers ), give the apostles authority to bind
and loose on earth and the authority to forgive sins and tell Peter to feed His sheep if He
only wanted you to go direct to Him alone? I thought by His doing all this that everything
done by the Church went direct to Him. Also the Church hasNOT changed
any of His or the Apostles teachings or Traditions. The only thing that may have changed
is the understanding, or the method presented, of these teachings which in no way
afffects them. The Church has the authority to do this.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

One styands out in my mind was the no eatting meat on Friday, under pain of Mortal sin…That changed…Just one that came to mind quickly

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Leslie, do you believe Scriptures contradicts one another?

No not when it is compaired to the Old testament and new, or to other chapers and books.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

have you ever read the Parable of the rich man and Lazarus? who is the rich man talking to? who is he asking for help? please read the Parable.

many have been where you are then reverted back. therefore being where you are does not mean you are in the right place. many thought the same as you, nevertherless they found out later they were not in the right place.

Peace.

The story of Lazarus is before Christ assended into heaven. He could see into Paridise ,which is not heaven. They were both dead and speaking on a spiritual level. After Christ died He freed all that were in "Paradise where they were held by the devil…not in pain, but could not go to heaven yet until Jesus decended into Hell and got the keys from satan. At that time heaven was opened and there is no more communication in the Word. This example was shown to let us know the hoplessness of hell. Since the gates of Heaven have been open there are no examples of anything even close to this.Continue , or read Luke 16: 23-29 By the way…Abraham could do nothing for him.

 

[wisdomseeker]

No not when it is compaired to the Old testament and new, or to other chapers and books.

so, you say here that it does contradicts unless it is compared to the Old and and the New. am i right? what are the other books?

 

[wisdomseeker]

The story of Lazarus is before Christ assended into heaven. He could see into Paridise ,which is not heaven. They were both dead and speaking on a spiritual level. After Christ died He freed all that were in "Paradise where they were held by the devil…not in pain, but could not go to heaven yet until Jesus decended into Hell and got the keys from satan. At that time heaven was opened and there is no more communication in the Word. This example was shown to let us know the hoplessness of hell. Since the gates of Heaven have been open there are no examples of anything even close to this.Continue , or read Luke 16: 23-29 By the way…Abraham could do nothing for him.

what keys did Jesus get from satan? if i ask. i dont know about Jesus going into hell, in latin we say He descended into the mansion of the dead. never hell.

please read this for a better understanding of the Word of God.

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m3/4mrka.html

:byzsoc:

 

[Leslie_Polley]

and just how would you know just by reading the Bible what Jesus meant? i dont see it written where Jesus says upon Me the Rock I will built my Church. how did you come up with this conclusion? besides, if Jesus says He would build a Church, when do you think this Church was built? after the Bible was printed?

WOW…To your first question…Yes. He is very clear in the Bible as to what He means. that is why He wrote it! So we sould have it .

He was setting the foundation during the three years He preached and taught on this earth. Are you saying Christ is not the foundation of the the Church… Peter answered Jesus question…who do you say that I am…He told Him, He was the Christ, the Son of God, and Jesus told him man did not tell him that, but God revealed it, and upon that…those word, He would build His Church. Peter served the Lord, He did not die for us, Christ did…who is the greater.

and 3. The church continues to grow and will continue to grow…to and for all those that Love the Lord.

 

[GeorgeSword]

WOW…To your first question…Yes. He is very clear in the Bible as to what He means. that is why He wrote it! So we sould have it .

He was setting the foundation during the three years He preached and taught on this earth. Are you saying Christ is not the foundation of the the Church… Peter answered Jesus question…who do you say that I am…He told Him, He was the Christ, the Son of God, and Jesus told him man did not tell him that, but God revealed it, and upon that…those word, He would build His Church. Peter served the Lord, He did not die for us, Christ did…who is the greater.

and 3. The church continues to grow and will continue to grow…to and for all those that Love the Lord.

“You are Peter, and on this Rock I shall build My Church,” He basically says “You are Rocky, and on this Rock I will build My Church.” So what does this mean?
“This is my Body, and this is My Blood. He who does not eat it has no life in him.”
“Let them be one, Father.”
Are these very clear passages, too?

 

[wisdomseeker]

WOW…To your first question…Yes. He is very clear in the Bible as to what He means. that is why He wrote it! So we sould have it .

He was setting the foundation during the three years He preached and taught on this earth. Are you saying Christ is not the foundation of the the Church… Peter answered Jesus question…who do you say that I am…He told Him, He was the Christ, the Son of God, and Jesus told him man did not tell him that, but God revealed it, and upon that…those word, He would build His Church. Peter served the Lord, He did not die for us, Christ did…who is the greater.

and 3. The church continues to grow and will continue to grow…to and for all those that Love the Lord.

leslie, i sense you are a good person. I am not much in favor of arguments. i hope you can look at the website i gave you. give it a chance. read it and let me know if you like it.

there are four parts to be read.

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m3/4mrka.html

:byzsoc:

 

[Javl]

I believe that Jesus is the Rock, and it refers to that throughout the Bible. I will look it up for you, but not right now O.K. . Peter was one of the apostles , and they all went out to preach the word of God, however not until Penticost. That is when the tongues of fire dropped and endued ALL that were there with power. To put it in laymans term, kick butt mentality. They were unafraid and really preached. These men were preaching to the Jews. Gods chosen people. Paul is the one that preached to the Gentiles and that is why sometimes he butted heads with some of the other apostles. Paul was an agressive educated man before when he was killing Christians, and was just as agressive when he was preaching the word. God Uses us as he finds us. He just brings out the good as he did with Paul. He became humble, but not quiet, and grieved because of his past life. He and Peter sometimes were at odds, but they were at different areas preacing the word. God knocked Paul of his horse and blinded him to get his attention. He was blind for 3 days. Did god call Paul for a lesser possition…No a different one. One for the Jews the other the Gentiles. I follow neither man…I follow Christ. That is who they followed…to the death. Peter on the cross inverted, because he wanted it upsid down as he did not find himself equil to Christ, and the crusifixion was because he was a Jew. Paul was beheaded because he was a Roman citizen, and they could not crusify him. Both gave thiers lives for Christ and the gospel, as have thousands since, and still are. Alll of this is in the Word. So if Peter was chosen for one church Paul must have been for the other, because God definetly chose him, and not to be under Peter…Therefore, they are both under Christ…The true head of the Church…Lets just call it the Church of Christ. I don’t meand that denomination, please do NOT misunderstand. I simple mean Christ is the Head of the Church. Not Peter, not Paul. But Christ, the Son of the Almighty God Jehovah.

Leslie, I say this with charity and kindness. Your interpreting the bible by yourself will lead
you into serious error. You are following the path of “sola scriptura” which has led to the
fragmentation of Christendom with its many denominations, churches and cults. If you
continue on this path, I say seriously it can lead you to total heresy.

Yes, when we pray we pray to God, but there is nothing that says that we can not ask others to pray for us. This is what we do when we “pray” to Mary and the saints. We are asking their help in praying to God for us to help us in our hour of need. This was done in
the primitive Church and there is nothing wrong with it.

As for Jesus being the rock. If He is, as you say, then why did Jesus change Simon Bar-Jonah’s name to Kephas, in Aramaic? This means rock, and translated to English it is
Peter. If He didn’t mean Peter to be the rock, then why did He give Peter and the Apostles full authority in His name to take care of the Church, and why did he tell only
Peter to feed His Lambs and sheep, three times? Peter IS the rock upon
which Jesus built His Church while Jesus is the cornerstone. This Authority did not
die with the Apostles but has been continued and handed down through the ages. As
Peter was Jesus’ first representative on earth, so today the Pope is His representative
with the full Authority that Jesus gave to Peter.

So, please think over your position. I am not a theologian so I can do no more than what I have told you, but I do recommend that you contact some one truly knowledgeable to
explain all to you and answer all your questions and objections. This Forum’s Apologetics section is a good place to start. God Bless.

Len

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[fbl9]

These are the reasons that I do not pray to or think I am getting through to God by ANYONE but Jesus. That is what the WORD says. I don’t care what any church teaches, if it does not line up with the Word of God I do not hear it. Tradition is fine, but it has nothing to do with salvation, or praying. Show me please, were the WORD of GOd says, that we pray to Mary or the saints to get to God. I think it grieves Mary. I cannot wait to Meet her and the other saints, but I will not pray to her thinking she has an “in” with Jesus we do not have. Just show me “in the WORD”, not according to the church, where this is acceptable by God. I am not being harsh or anything, so please don’t take it that way. Its hard to write in a tone of voice if you know what I mean. My tone is soft, and my words are gentle. God bless

Hi again Leslie;
How is it that you can only get to God through Jesus considering that Jesus is God?

You might have noticed that during our Lord’s time on earth He healed many persons,Including those that other persons asked to be healed.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

what keys did Jesus get from satan? if i ask. i dont know about Jesus going into hell, in latin we say He descended into the mansion of the dead. never hell.

please read this for a better understanding of the Word of God.

zuserver2.star.ucl.ac.uk/~vgg/rc/aplgtc/hahn/m3/4mrka.html

:byzsoc:

You pray it. Do you say the Apostles Creed. It says there that "He decended into Hell, the third day He arose again "etc. I will also give you the scripture. That is basically the same as in 1Peter 3:18-20. I will see if I can find one that is a little more clear. But he did decend and preach to those there. Let me get back to you. I don’t know everything either. Its just a matter of reading and looking.

 

[Javl]

You pray it. Do you say the Apostles Creed. It says there that "He decended into Hell, the third day He arose again "etc. I will also give you the scripture. That is basically the same as in 1Peter 3:18-20. I will see if I can find one that is a little more clear. But he did decend and preach to those there. Let me get back to you. I don’t know everything either. Its just a matter of reading and looking.

Leslie:
This is what I mean about your mis-interpretation. Jesus DID NOT descend
into the hell of the damned. He descended into sheol ( in Hebrew; Hades in Greek ) which
according to Jewish belief was a “holding place”, or prison for all souls. The closest English word that translates sheol or hades is hell. Also where does it say that Jesus received the keys from Satan? Again you are mis-understanding and mis-interprting the
scriptures.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem