Anti-Catholicism

[Leslie_Polley]

See you need to go back and read the scripture. Scripture cannot contradict scripture. If I undertand it the way you are saying it does.

Why would Jesus command us to Honor your Father and Mother, and then turn around and say let no man call you father. Go back and read who Jesus is taking to and why, then get back to me.

You have 2 questions. I wrote back about the 2nd, I am not sure what the first one is. would you explain it so I understand the question…sorry

 

[abucs]

“Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah. For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my heavenly Father.”

And so I say to you, you are “Rock”, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

christiananswers.net/dictionary/cephas.html

defendingthebride.com/ch/ca/rock1.html

catholicdoors.com/misc/apologetics/powersofthekeys.htm

mattboettger.blogspot.com/2006/10/why-i-am-catholic-part-i.html

bringyou.to/apologetics/PeterRockKeysPrimacyRome.htm

catholicapologetics.org/ap050200.htm

catholic-pages.com/pope/hahn.asp

en.allexperts.com/q/Catholics-955/Pope-history.htm

 

[Javl]

Sory, I guess wel will have to agree to disagree. I thought the book humanized God, brought Him to our level and that is not right in my book. Since it has nothing to do with salvation it really doesn’r matter. I personally do not recomend it. You can.

Could you please give me the chapter and verse that was used when Jesus gave a priest the authority tohear confessions. I would like to read it, really. I know that Jesus gave us the Lord prayer, and that certainly says "forgive us our sins, AS WE FORGIVE OTHERS. I would gather from that that we can go directly to The Father, for forgivness, however the only catch is we have to foregive others as well that have offened us, did something to us, etc. Its a beautiful prayer, and says it all. After all, its the example of prayer Jesus Himself gave us. In other words a perfect prayer.

Read John20:21-23. Since Jesus is God and has the power and authority to forgive sins,
He gave authority to the Apostles to do the same ( not the disciples ). This authority did
not end with the death of the Apostles, but was passed on by the laying on of hands to their successors, the bishops of the church. The bishops in turn have the authority to
pass on to the presbyters ( priests ) this power. Actually the bishops and priests only
absolve the sin.

And yes, you can confess to God directly. There is no problem with that. But also, why
then did Jesus give this power to mere men if He did not want us to use it?

As for the Lord’s prayer, when we say “Forgive our sins as we forgive others”, we are
asking the Lord to forgive our sins against Him as we forgive the wrongs
and hurts against us as done by others. It does not mean that we can forgive
sins against God.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[rinnie]

Your right, its right there, but they were not priests, nor are they called priests. This is the same power that is to bind and loose, and do the works of Christ. Thomas ws not there…did he get the same gifts, yes. There were also the gift of healing, tongues, wisdom,knowledge,faith, miracles, prophecy,discerning of spirits, interpretation of tongues.

Please read
Corinthians 12:1-14. Its great sctipture readinng though. The things given to the deciples were given to us all.

I do thank you for pointing that out. I had forgotten where it was. When do you believe He is coming again?

Leslie Thomas was there. The Apostles received the Power of the HS to express themsleves at Pentecost. The tongues of fire came to rest on the head of each one of them. I do not see Thomas excluded. Read it its in Acts 2

Secondly Read 1 Tim 4:14 Laying of the hand of the Priest. Please read it, it show you how tim. say be very careful of who you choose. I think you are getting confused with the gift of the HS we receive in Baptism. and the gift of the HS that Priests get in Holy Orders (the laying of hands). We are all called to do different things. Do you not agree. Some are called to be Mothers, Fathers, teachers, workers, etc. That is also in the bible. But we are not all called to teach (be Priests, etc).

 

[rinnie]

Also Leslie

The greek word for Priest is presybyterous
Latin presbyter.

Check it out, its in the bible.

 

[rinnie]

Read John20:21-23. Since Jesus is God and has the power and authority to forgive sins,
He gave authority to the Apostles to do the same ( not the disciples ). This authority did
not end with the death of the Apostles, but was passed on by the laying on of hands to their successors, the bishops of the church. The bishops in turn have the authority to
pass on to the presbyters ( priests ) this power. Actually the bishops and priests only
absolve the sin.

And yes, you can confess to God directly. There is no problem with that. But also, why
then did Jesus give this power to mere men if He did not want us to use it?

As for the Lord’s prayer, when we say “Forgive our sins as we forgive others”, we are
asking the Lord to forgive our sins against Him as we forgive the wrongs
and hurts against us as done by others. It does not mean that we can forgive
sins against God.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

You are right. But also don’t forget not mortal sin. The bible says if you are in mortal sin you must be re-united with the Church. You can only be re-united with the church from the Priest. Only a Priest can absolve us from Mortal sin.

 

[rinnie]

Members of the Snhedrin were called father (acts 7:2, 22:1), but this was not to be practice among Christians, It is also used of one who converts men to God throght the gospel, so this is not the thing Jesus condemns (Cor. 4:15) The “fathers” of Matt> 23 were the hypocrites who lorded it over others soley becasue of religious position and power. Here He condems all 3 titles that Jewish doctors greatly cherished and that fosterdd their hypocrisy and religious pride. It had NOTHING to do with your parents.

God and Jesus are gealous of these honors for they are the only ones who have any right to these titles. God is the only Father of Christians and Christ is the only leader and head of the church…Yes there are refrences of God being a Jealous God…I will give you one, you find some more…Ex.20:5, Ex 34:14 I gave you 2
And what I gave you is from the Word.

It most certainly is. We still refer to Abraham as our Father Abraham. But I think you are getting the Word Father mixed up with God or something.

1 Cor.4 14-15 St Paul saiys I became your father in Christ through the gospel.

Hebrews 12 7-9 say we have earthly fathers to discipline us,

Throughout the N.T Humans are called Fathers

Matt 19-19 honor your father and mother
acts 7:2 St Stephen call the jewish leaders fathers
Romans Abraham is the father of allo fus
philmon 10 omesimus whos father Ihave become in my imprisoment
1 John 2:13 I am writing to you fathers.

I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.

There is only ONE GOD THE FATHER. I agree. But we have earthly Fathers. St Joseph was the adopted father of Jesus for goodness sakes.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

1beleevr;5884234:

1beleevr:

I understand your position. But every Protestant I have had contact with ( of various
denominations ) seems to follow the same pattern. My wife is Methodist and she also
only knew what she had heard and had been taught about Catholicism. Everywhere I
go, I get hit with the same statements by Protestants when they learn that I am Catholic.
The only exception was Methodist minister I had met who later converted to Catholicism.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

I am a former Catholic, I do know about the church, tradition vs fact in many cases. I do not dislike the church in anyway and still hang with many of my C friends who come to me to ask questions about the Bible. Just so you know my backgroud…I was baptized C as a baby, went to Privite Catholic girl schools through college and was taught by nuns, priests and my best friend until he died was a Jesuit priest. I could say the mass in latin by third grade and still have my catichism and can still answer lots of the memorization that we had to do. I just said all that so you would know that I am a Pentecostal with lots of Catholic background. I can talk on both sides cause I have been there. I am not being arrogant, I truly am not. I just wanted you to know I do understand your side, if we have to pick sides, which I hate! We are all the people Christ gave His life for and this kind of debate has to sadden Him. Have you yourself read the Bible? Have you ever read it through?
I know one thing for sure, when we get to heaven and are judged the one thing I will be most sorrowful for is that I did not have time to serve Him more. I also know He is not going to ask if I belong to any paticular church, ONLY if I have been born again. This is scriptual. There is ONE mediator to the Father, and that is Jesus…not Mary, not the saints, not the Priest, not a friend, ONLY Jesus. That is scriptual. God bless you and good reading. I will be happy to give you those scriptures.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

You are right. But also don’t forget not mortal sin. The bible says if you are in mortal sin you must be re-united with the Church. You can only be re-united with the church from the Priest. Only a Priest can absolve us from Mortal sin.

Of course it does not mean forgiving God…He is perfect, it means forgiving others here on earth that have ofended us. “Forgive those who trespass against us”, the operative word is US. If we ever get arrogent enough that we think we can do anything more, or better that God we are in serious trouble. Do you think that God is not big enough to forgive a “Mortal” sin. Where does it say only a priest forgive a mortal sin. To God then a lie is a damnedable offence, for He says liars will not see heaven. We call them little white lies, He does not see them that way. Sin is sin to God. just one example of something we think of as minor, God does not

 

[Leslie_Polley]

It most certainly is. We still refer to Abraham as our Father Abraham. But I think you are getting the Word Father mixed up with God or something.

1 Cor.4 14-15 St Paul saiys I became your father in Christ through the gospel.

Hebrews 12 7-9 say we have earthly fathers to discipline us,

Throughout the N.T Humans are called Fathers

Matt 19-19 honor your father and mother
acts 7:2 St Stephen call the jewish leaders fathers
Romans Abraham is the father of allo fus
philmon 10 omesimus whos father Ihave become in my imprisoment
1 John 2:13 I am writing to you fathers.

Joseph was the father (adoptive) of Christ. God did not refer to Abraham as “father” Abraham, We refer to him in this manner , because he was the father of many nations. He was a literal father. A priest is not a literal father, adoptive or otherwise. He can call you his children, but you are not, you are Gods child. I personally don’t care what you call him. I would call him pastor, because he is in charge of guiding his perisheners, but he is no ones father.
I did not write what is below this.________________
I could go on and on, but I think you get the point.

There is only ONE GOD THE FATHER. I agree. But we have earthly Fathers. St Joseph was the adopted father of Jesus for goodness sakes.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Of course it does not mean forgiving God…He is perfect, it means forgiving others here on earth that have ofended us. “Forgive those who trespass against us”, the operative word is US. If we ever get arrogent enough that we think we can do anything more, or better that God we are in serious trouble. Do you think that God is not big enough to forgive a “Mortal” sin. [SIGN]Where does it say only a priest forgive a mortal sin. [/SIGN]To God then a lie is a damnedable offence, for He says liars will not see heaven. We call them little white lies, He does not see them that way. Sin is sin to God. just one example of something we think of as minor, God does not

James 5:14-15 Presbyters of the Church (which means Priest remember) pray over him, he will be forgiven. Prayer of presbyters forgives sins.

Leslie, forgive me, but you claim that you were Catholic? You did not learn any of this scripture?

Are you saying that you deny the power of the HS that is given to priest’s to forgive sin? Are you saying that the Apostles never had authority to forgive sins. What really are you saying?

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

[SIGN]Of course it does not mean forgiving God…He is perfect, [/SIGN]it means forgiving others here on earth that have ofended us. “Forgive those who trespass against us”, the operative word is US. If we ever get arrogent enough that we think we can do anything more, or better that God we are in serious trouble. Do you think that God is not big enough to forgive a “Mortal” sin. Where does it say only a priest forgive a mortal sin. To God then a lie is a damnedable offence, for He says liars will not see heaven. We call them little white lies, He does not see them that way. Sin is sin to God. just one example of something we think of as minor, God does not

You lost me here big time Leslie. Who ever said we would have to forgive God. For what? How could God possibly need forgiveness

 

[rinnie]

Leslie_Polley:
Yes Leslie GOd did call Abraham our Father.

Acts4:17 as it is written I have made you father of many nations. He is our father in the sight of God in whom he believed.

It does not get any clearer than that.

 

[rinnie]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Javl;5885406:

I am a former Catholic, I do know about the church, tradition vs fact in many cases. I do not dislike the church in anyway and still hang with many of my C friends who come to me to ask questions about the Bible. Just so you know my backgroud…I was baptized C as a baby, went to Privite Catholic girl schools through college and was taught by nuns, priests and my best friend until he died was a Jesuit priest. I could say the mass in latin by third grade and still have my catichism and can still answer lots of the memorization that we had to do. I just said all that so you would know that I am a Pentecostal with lots of Catholic background. I can talk on both sides cause I have been there. I am not being arrogant, I truly am not. I just wanted you to know I do understand your side, if we have to pick sides, which I hate! We are all the people Christ gave His life for and this kind of debate has to sadden Him. Have you yourself read the Bible? Have you ever read it through?
I know one thing for sure, when we get to heaven and are judged the one thing I will be most sorrowful for is that I did not have time to serve Him more. I also know He is not going to ask if I belong to any paticular church, ONLY if I have been born again. This is scriptual. [SIGN]There is ONE mediator to the Father, and that is Jesus…not Mary, not the saints, not the Priest, not a friend, ONLY Jesus. [/SIGN] That is scriptual. God bless you and good reading. I will be happy to give you those scriptures.

That is the teachings of the RCC. Who is denying that. We never said Mary or the Saints were mediators. We said Mary and the Saints can interceed for us through prayers. Do you disagree with intercession. is that what you mean?

 

[Lynxdk]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

You lost me here big time Leslie. Who ever said we would have to forgive God. For what? How could God possibly need forgiveness

Lot’s of people need to forgive God. Forgivness is more about healing the person doing the forgiving than the person receiving it.

 

[rinnie]

Lot’s of people need to forgive God. Forgivness is more about healing the person doing the forgiving than the person receiving it.

Forgive God for what? Sure forgiveness is about healing, but forgiveness comes from God. God is perfect. If you ask someone to forgive you it means we have sinned. God has never sinned, so what would they forgive God for? For dying on the cross and saving us from sin? For laying down his life for us?

 

[Lynxdk]

Forgive God for what? Sure forgiveness is about healing, but forgiveness comes from God. God is perfect. If you ask someone to forgive you it means we have sinned. God has never sinned, so what would they forgive God for? For dying on the cross and saving us from sin? For laying down his life for us?

I guess it’s not something you can understand unless you’ve hated God at some point in your life.

 

[Javl]

I am a former Catholic, I do know about the church, tradition vs fact in many cases. I do not dislike the church in anyway and still hang with many of my C friends who come to me to ask questions about the Bible. Just so you know my backgroud…I was baptized C as a baby, went to Privite Catholic girl schools through college and was taught by nuns, priests and my best friend until he died was a Jesuit priest. I could say the mass in latin by third grade and still have my catichism and can still answer lots of the memorization that we had to do. I just said all that so you would know that I am a Pentecostal with lots of Catholic background. I can talk on both sides cause I have been there. I am not being arrogant, I truly am not. I just wanted you to know I do understand your side, if we have to pick sides, which I hate! We are all the people Christ gave His life for and this kind of debate has to sadden Him. Have you yourself read the Bible? Have you ever read it through?
I know one thing for sure, when we get to heaven and are judged the one thing I will be most sorrowful for is that I did not have time to serve Him more. I also know He is not going to ask if I belong to any paticular church, ONLY if I have been born again. This is scriptual. There is ONE mediator to the Father, and that is Jesus…not Mary, not the saints, not the Priest, not a friend, ONLY Jesus. That is scriptual. God bless you and good reading. I will be happy to give you those scriptures.

Thank you for your telling me your story. I too am a cradle Catholic and went thru the same as you. I also left the Church. I was agnostic to the point of atheism. I had read and re-read the Bible many times and then set about to prove that all religions were phony,
money making schemes, etc. The more involved I got in my studies, the more convinced I became of my goal, until I guess the Holy Spirit got hold of me, shook the dickens out of me and showed me the truth. Yes, I’ve studied and learned about almost all religions,
and yes I do know my scriptures. In my studies I’ve learned that the only Church is the one found by Jesus, and that is the Catholic Church. I reverted and today I am a Catholic
and no amount of arguement will change that. The Catholic Church is 2000 years old and is unchanged because Jesus said that the gates of hell shall not prevail against it and that
He will be with it always. Yes, many of the clergy, under the aegis of the prince of lies
have tried to destroy it from within. But Jesus is true to His word and has kept it free from
error.

I don’t know why you left the Church, you have your reasons. But it is my estimation that you left because you really knew nothing about it. For if you did, you would have remained a Catholic. There have been many vehemently anti-Catholics down thru the ages who have attacked the Church and who when learning the truth converted to Catholicism. Watch EWTN and learn the truth. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[rinnie]

I guess it’s not something you can understand unless you’ve hated God at some point in your life.

Dear Lynxdk please understand this is from the bottom of my heart. I am so sorry, That had to be such a dark time for you. I pray you have peace now.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Read John20:21-23. Since Jesus is God and has the power and authority to forgive sins,
He gave authority to the Apostles to do the same ( not the disciples ). This authority did
not end with the death of the Apostles, but was passed on by the laying on of hands to their successors, the bishops of the church. The bishops in turn have the authority to
pass on to the presbyters ( priests ) this power. Actually the bishops and priests only
absolve the sin.

And yes, you can confess to God directly. There is no problem with that. But also, why
then did Jesus give this power to mere men if He did not want us to use it?

As for the Lord’s prayer, when we say “Forgive our sins as we forgive others”, we are
asking the Lord to forgive our sins against Him as we forgive the wrongs
and hurts against us as done by others. It does not mean that we can forgive
sins against God.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

My goodness,it’s self explanitory…Forgive us our trespasses AS WE FORGIVE those who trespass against us. If we do not forgive He does not forgive.God does not sin so why in the world would anyone even think"forgive Gods sin". This is getting crazy. God spoke simply. There is nothing difficult in the Our Father! AS WE FORGIVE OUR TRESPASSERS. In other words we must forgive in order to be forgiven!!! It I did something that ofended you you must forgive me. If you have done something that ofended me, I must forgive you. It does not mean we would be best friends necessarily, but we MUST forgive.