Anti-Catholicism

[Randy_Carson]

Just to respond to you (I would agree that damning the whole religion because of a few misguided woulds would be horrible right?) Absolutally. I do not have the power to damn any to hell or get them in heaven…that is our choice. That is where our free will kicks in.
As for the debate…you call it a debate…as to argue…I thought that this was conversations in trying to understand others points of view. I will agree to disagree with you however. Could you give me the chapter and verse paul said that. I now we are not to cast our pearls before swine, and to shake the dust from our feet and leave, I would just like to know where this is. I could not find it.

1 Timothy 6:3-5
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

2 Timothy 2:14
14Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Thank you, you proved my point. nowhere does it say a priest cannot marry…celibacy is a choice… Why has there been a debate about changing the Church law and allowing priests to marry.

Leslie-

No one ever claimed that the Bible teaches that priests cannot marry. This is a discipline which the Church can change whenever she chooses. The post I offered above simply demonstrates that the Catholic Church has done NOTHING unbiblical by requiring that Latin Rite priests normally remain celibate.

I have known 2 priests that had to leave the priesthood so they could marry. One of them was my math teacher in California…Father Fabian…Another was a friend of the family. They said that they where excommunicated from the church because of that, and that is what we were always taught. Excommunication in the church meant hell.

If these priests were in fact excommunicated, then there is probably more to the story.

However that is a church law and not in the word. I would like to thank you however because you accually tookk the time to dig in the Word and find some great scriptures. I really surprised me Randy. Before you have been very sarcastic, and I was in return. This was acctually nice. What it boils down to however is that God said yes and the church said no, or there would be married priests, at least 2 that I know of anyway. One other thing…Celibacy is a choice, not a gift.

Thank you, Leslie. As a former Protestant myself and a regular contributor to this forum, I try to provide as much biblical basis for my beliefs as possible. I also get overly sarcastic at times. I apologize to you for this.

Finally, it is not so much a matter of God saying “yes” and the Church saying “no”; Jesus and Paul both extolled the celibate life and the Church is simply following their advice in this matter. Paul said it is better to remain unmarried and Jesus specifically stated:

Matthew 19:12
For some are eunuchs because they were born that way; others were made that way by men; and others have renounced marriage because of the kingdom of heaven. The one who can accept this should accept it."

Bottom line? Those who can accept the gift of celibacy for the sake of His kingdom should accept it.

 

[Randy_Carson]

It means that I looked at the facts and do not accept all of the Catholic Church’s teachings at correct and true. I did not want to be a cafeteria Catholic so instead of disagreeing quietly, I left.

If you had to pick one thing, what was it?

 

[fbl9]

Yes. You hit the nail right on the head ( or is it hit the head right on the nail? ). Many of
these ex-Catholics, no matter what their reason for leaving, are always experts on the Catholic religion. Believe me, if they were they would never have left, no matter the reason,
and this goes for some ex-priests too. All we can do is pray for them and ask the Lord to
take into consideration the reason for their leaving His Church. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Drawmack:
Here is an example of knowledge vs belief…(above quote)… some may have believed but did not know that the Church is the true Church, so they changed want they believed…

You seem to think that becuase some one knows a thing to be true they are arrogant, judging, prideful and lack charity.As this thread has been going on towards the end it boils down to one thing : who has the authority…Following the passing of this aurthority in scripture shows only one Church has this aurthority. Only one Church claims this authority to this day.

Outside of this Church we find that if one doesn’t agree with what is being said one changes the group they are with or simply start thier own new group.That is a fact, that can’t be ingored or changed no matter what kind of spin is put by the dissenters.

 

[Prieldedi]

prieldedi always writes very good posts, and you are correct, she summed it up very nicely! Having been raised in the 50’s and 60’s, spending time in the military, and now working in corrections, believe me I know the importance of discipline and authority! It is hard being a Christian period, regardless of your religious persuasion. Sometimes our biggest enemy is ourselves, and our foolish pride Many of us have enough trouble submitting to man’s rules, let alone God’s! People leave churches for what would seem petty reasons; we had a couple leave because they didn’t like the music! And as for myself, the privilege of being able to confess my sins directly to my Father, through my Saviour, serves to deepen my personal relationship with Him! And speaking of serving; since I got out from the pew, and those four walls, and began seeing people through God’s eyes, my Christian walk has blossomed! I am better able to “love” others as myself(Matthew 22:39) Love has so many diferent meanings, but kindness and respect go a long way towards reaching someone, rather than ignoring or treating them as non-humans! But hey, I have decided to remain non-catholic, but I love ALL of my Christian brothers and sisters, regardless of what title you choose to wear:thumbsup:

1beleevr… I’m a HE, not a SHE. My nickname is made up of the first syllables of 4 Spanish words. It was given to me by a friend during my university years back in 1973. I live in Central America, and English is my second language.

Thanks for your comments, I truly appreciate them.

God bless you

 

[Brian_Culliton]

I as a Catholic respect the decision of those who decide to leave our Church. They are free to do as their conscience dictates. When the subject comes up and we engage in a conversation, like I have done with one of my brothers-in-law, I will defend the Church and I will try to explain to him where he is wrong.

I also have a few friends that left the Church, most of them just aren’t religious, they are not converted Protestants. But they make the same accusations against the Church than those that became Protestants. When I ask them if they are going to join a Protestant church they flatly say no, and explain that they know that the true Church is the Catholic Church. Then why do you reject it?, I ask, and the answer is the same: it’s not easy to be Catholic.

Why isn’t it easy to be a Catholic? For one, Stephen K. Ray, a convert Catholic (formerly Baptist) says the following:

“For the Protestant, the major obstacle, overshadowing all others, is the issue of authority… Authority doesn’t sit well with the twentieth-century mind-set. It smacks of weakness, slavery, and subservience, especially in a society that values unlimited personal freedom as a birthright… Submission to Christ in his Church is not an act of blindness, weakness, conformity, or groveling. It is rather an act of courage, intelligence, and decisiveness-a willing choice made from the very essence of emancipation. We [he and his wife] realized that the Catholic Church was God’s authority, his Kingdom represented visible in space and time. Once we recognized the truth and historical solidity of the Church’s claims, we had no choice but gladly to swear allegiance and pledge our fealty.” Crossing the Tiber, 1997 Ignatius Press

Most left for the discipline (imposed by that Authority) required from our Faith from day one of Christianity, not for a major theological or religious principle debate. I’m talking here about by personal experience… I know, I know: not all former Catholic fall in this category. There, I acknowledge it. The ones that moved to a Protestant denomination are happy now because they face no more “discipline”, and they have been convinced by their new church that “since it’s not in the Bible” it’s their right to reject it, now they are “free”. So, by being a Catholic, and knowing first hand all the objections that our own Catholic brothers have regarding our Church is that we know the truth of their rejection.

Confession… it’s not easy to confess one’s sins I agree. But we have to do it because that’s what Jesus wants from us.

Authority… “You are Peter” etc., we have no problem. But there are those that don’t like it when the Church tells us that premarital sex is a sin, or that contraception is also a sin, etc. See, it’s not easy to be a Catholic in the 21st Century. No need to give more examples.

That’s why when we see someone going away from the Church we say we know the real truth behind their leaving. Again, for most of them, not all of them. I even have had the same thoughts, but I know I can’t just proclaim myself to be judge and say that the Church is wrong because She asks me not to sin. I don’t have that Authority.

God bless you

The problem with church authority is that the church you claim has it is not the same as the one the apostles founded. What started out as the Christian cult became the catholic (universal) church, which eventually became the Catholic Church.

The church experienced drastic change through the third century, and after the Great Persecution under Diocletian, Galerius and Maximinus, the church became a new entity. At the conclusion of Nicea a new standard for Christians was firmly established whereby Christian law, drafted and ratified by church leadership, became binding upon all Christians.

Where Irenaeus declared in the second century that the “Gospel is the pillar and ground of the church (Against Heresies 3:11:8),” Nicea became the pillar and ground of the new church; the church you and I know as the Catholic Church. It is that institution’s authority and claims of infallibility that I reject.

Incidentally, how can you (or anyone) claim that somebody is infallible under any circumstance unless you are infallible too? If you aren’t infallible then your claim that someone else is, is just your belief. It is certainly not a belief that was shared by the early church.

 

[Drawmack]

If you had to pick one thing, what was it?

Randy,

I do not want to appear that I am ignoring your question so I feel that I should inform you that I no longer discuss theology with Catholics.

 

[Javl]

Drawmack:
Here is an example of knowledge vs belief…(above quote)… some may have believed but did not know that the Church is the true Church, so they changed want they believed…

You seem to think that becuase some one knows a thing to be true they are arrogant, judging, prideful and lack charity.As this thread has been going on towards the end it boils down to one thing : who has the authority…Following the passing of this aurthority in scripture shows only one Church has this aurthority. Only one Church claims this authority to this day.

Outside of this Church we find that if one doesn’t agree with what is being said one changes the group they are with or simply start thier own new group.That is a fact, that can’t be ingored or changed no matter what kind of spin is put by the dissenters.

Thank you very much. You have made my point. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Prieldedi]

The problem with church authority is that the church you claim has it is not the same as the one the apostles founded. What started out as the Christian cult became the catholic (universal) church, which eventually became the Catholic Church.

The church experienced drastic change through the third century, and after the Great Persecution under Diocletian, Galerius and Maximinus, the church became a new entity. At the conclusion of Nicea a new standard for Christians was firmly established whereby Christian law, drafted and ratified by church leadership, became binding upon all Christians.

Where Irenaeus declared in the second century that the “Gospel is the pillar and ground of the church (Against Heresies 3:11:8),” Nicea became the pillar and ground of the new church; the church you and I know as the Catholic Church. It is that institution’s authority and claims of infallibility that I reject.

Incidentally, how can you (or anyone) claim that somebody is infallible under any circumstance unless you are infallible too? If you aren’t infallible then your claim that someone else is, is just your belief. It is certainly not a belief that was shared by the early church.

You think the Church is not the same. In a sense perhaps, it started as a “seed”, now it’s a full grown “tree”. It’s obvious it’s different. However, the teachings are the same. The true historical facts about the Church, which are not the ones you mention, are elsewhere here in CAF, so I wont address them as others have done it before, unless you want me to go there. (Check my post #270 on page 18 for links to testimony of former Protestants who found the true Church.)

I have a few question for you to think about: why do you accept the Bible as the Word of God? Who gave you the Bible you hold in your hands? Who decided which books belonged in the New Testament? The answer is none other than the third Century Catholic Church you mention, and indeed one of the “drastic changes” introduced by the Church then was… the BIBLE (OT + NT). Now think of this: you reject their Authority, and yet you accept their Authority when you accept their Bible. Before the Bible was put together there were close to or more than 100 different books, epistles, gospels, going around. The Church decided on 27 books and that’s what you have in your Bible.

I accept that the Pope is infallible in matters of Faith and Morals. I accept it because the early Church accepted it too, that’s what the Apostles taught them. I don’t need to be infallible to know if someone else is infallible. I don’t need to be Beethoven to say Beethoven is who he is.

I accept that the only way for Jesus to fulfill his promise “I’ll be with you till the end of the world” and “the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you have to say” is by an infallible Authority. Just look at Paul. He went to Corinth and other cities and established new churches. In a very short time he had to write them to explain things again. See how easy is for “good people” to go astray? Now imagine if we had no infallible teacher for 2000 years. Where would Christianity be today? You just need to look at the Protestant side to have an idea, look at what has happened in just 500 years. The good thing 2000 years ago is that the Corinthians accepted the Church’s teachings, the bad thing 500 years ago is that Luther rejected them.

When the Pope talks, the world listens. When a Pastor talks, his congregation listens. I don’t say this in a degrading way, but it’s a fact that the world listens when the Pope talks. 1 John 4:6, “We are of God and those who know God listen to us, but those who are not of God ignore us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error as well.” This is Authority. And look at the verb John uses: “LISTEN”. No reference to “read”.

God bless you

 

[Ismael]

A lot of people have been taught, sadly,even by their pastors,whether through intentional and sometimes unintentional ignorance what they think the Church teaches.Kalos,I don’t want to hijack this thread by responding to your misconceptions but if you would start your own thread we could have a respectful dialogue,Rocky.

I must agree with this statement, purely from direct experiences.

As a Catholic I do not go often to protestant churches, but ut happened to me to go a few times (either with a protestant friend or for a wedding).

Every time the protestant pastor said something bashful agrainst the Catholic Church. Once, during a wedding the protestant pastor told he read the Da Vinci Code and started bashing the Catholic Church as ‘misogynous’.

I really could not understand why they would do that. In my life I had never heard a priest comment against the protestant churches in a sermon, nor I would like to hear a priest slander another community from the pulpit.
I am sure that in the world some priests also commit such abomination of slandering other Christians (although I never experienced it), but such behavior is very unchristian in my opinion.

First I thought I was very unlucky, but asking around cconfirmed to me that ‘anti-catholicism’ is widely preached in protestant churches.

Anti-catholicism is hard-wired in the protestant world, I have come to believe.
I frankly think it’s quite sad.

I do not believe protestants are evil, I want to add, I just find it sad that they are taught to hate.

 

[Brian_Culliton]

You think the Church is not the same. In a sense perhaps, it started as a “seed”, now it’s a full grown “tree”. It’s obvious it’s different. However, the teachings are the same. The true historical facts about the Church, which are not the ones you mention, are elsewhere here in CAF, so I wont address them as others have done it before, unless you want me to go there. (Check my post #270 on page 18 for links to testimony of former Protestants who found the true Church.)

I have a few question for you to think about: why do you accept the Bible as the Word of God? Who gave you the Bible you hold in your hands? Who decided which books belonged in the New Testament? The answer is none other than the third Century Catholic Church you mention, and indeed one of the “drastic changes” introduced by the Church then was… the BIBLE (OT + NT). Now think of this: you reject their Authority, and yet you accept their Authority when you accept their Bible. Before the Bible was put together there were close to or more than 100 different books, epistles, gospels, going around. The Church decided on 27 books and that’s what you have in your Bible.

I accept that the Pope is infallible in matters of Faith and Morals. I accept it because the early Church accepted it too, that’s what the Apostles taught them. I don’t need to be infallible to know if someone else is infallible. I don’t need to be Beethoven to say Beethoven is who he is.

I accept that the only way for Jesus to fulfill his promise “I’ll be with you till the end of the world” and “the Holy Spirit will teach you at that time what you have to say” is by an infallible Authority. Just look at Paul. He went to Corinth and other cities and established new churches. In a very short time he had to write them to explain things again. See how easy is for “good people” to go astray? Now imagine if we had no infallible teacher for 2000 years. Where would Christianity be today? You just need to look at the Protestant side to have an idea, look at what has happened in just 500 years. The good thing 2000 years ago is that the Corinthians accepted the Church’s teachings, the bad thing 500 years ago is that Luther rejected them.

When the Pope talks, the world listens. When a Pastor talks, his congregation listens. I don’t say this in a degrading way, but it’s a fact that the world listens when the Pope talks. 1 John 4:6, “We are of God and those who know God listen to us, but those who are not of God ignore us. This is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error as well.” This is Authority. And look at the verb John uses: “LISTEN”. No reference to “read”.

God bless you

I do not “accept their authority when accept their Bible.” It is not their Bible to begin with. Your information is completely wrong. The Bible did not come together in the third century. The church did not decide which books belonged and which didn’t. You are ignoring 300 years of church history wherein the final canon was developed. The only thing the Catholic Church did was close the canon.

I think it is absurd when Catholics take credit for the canon of Scripture. Are you going to take credit for the four Gospels or the Pauline Corpus? Who decided that these books belong in the canon? Can you name the council that decided that? I reject your church’s authority and your church had no authority over Scripture. Your church did not make Scripture and they did not decide what Scripture is. I accept the canon because I agree with Eusebius’ deductions on how and why certain disputed books were included. But even if those disputed books were not included, I would still have the undisputed books that contain and support the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

1 Timothy 6:3-5
3If anyone teaches false doctrines and does not agree to the sound instruction of our Lord Jesus Christ and to godly teaching, 4he is conceited and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy interest in controversies and quarrels about words that result in envy, strife, malicious talk, evil suspicions 5and constant friction between men of corrupt mind, who have been robbed of the truth and who think that godliness is a means to financial gain.

2 Timothy 2:14
14Keep reminding them of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen.

From what you are getting out of those scriptures means that we should not be on this forum, because obviously different point of view are discussed. I would not want to ofend you so I will not disguss things with you. That is taken out of contex however, and does not apply to what I was doing or Peter and Paul could not have spoken, and they did, and did disagree on a number of things, Thank you for your view.

 

[Randy_Carson]

Randy,

I do not want to appear that I am ignoring your question so I feel that I should inform you that I no longer discuss theology with Catholics.

Oh…okay.

So, why are you active in a Catholic apologetics forum if you don’t want to discuss theology with Catholics?

 

[Randy_Carson]

From what you are getting out of those scriptures means that we should not be on this forum, because obviously different point of view are discussed. I would not want to ofend you so I will not disguss things with you. That is taken out of contex however, and does not apply to what I was doing or Peter and Paul could not have spoken, and they did, and did disagree on a number of things, Thank you for your view.

I believe that we should argue and debate our views…my post count should make that evident. There is little chance of offending me, so discuss and disagree with me all you want.

However, in post #467, you wrote

As for the debate…you call it a debate…as to argue…I thought that this was conversations in trying to understand others points of view. I will agree to disagree with you however. Could you give me the chapter and verse paul said that. I now we are not to cast our pearls before swine, and to shake the dust from our feet and leave, I would just like to know where this is. I could not find it.

You asked for the verses, and I provided them for you.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

I must agree with this statement, purely from direct experiences.

As a Catholic I do not go often to protestant churches, but ut happened to me to go a few times (either with a protestant friend or for a wedding).

Every time the protestant pastor said something bashful agrainst the Catholic Church. Once, during a wedding the protestant pastor told he read the Da Vinci Code and started bashing the Catholic Church as ‘misogynous’.

I really could not understand why they would do that. In my life I had never heard a priest comment against the protestant churches in a sermon, nor I would like to hear a priest slander another community from the pulpit.
I am sure that in the world some priests also commit such abomination of slandering other Christians (although I never experienced it), but such behavior is very unchristian in my opinion.

First I thought I was very unlucky, but asking around cconfirmed to me that ‘anti-catholicism’ is widely preached in protestant churches.

Anti-catholicism is hard-wired in the protestant world, I have come to believe.
I frankly think it’s quite sad.

I do not believe protestants are evil, I want to add, I just find it sad that they are taught to hate.

I am so sorry that there was Catholic bashing from the pulpit. My husband was a pastor for mor than35 yrs before he passed away and Never said a bad word about any faith…he just taught the truth. I am so sorry that any pastor would take the pulpit as an opportunity to bash church. At our Sunday night service there was standing room only and 85 % were Catholics because our community has a very large Catholic population. They loved to hear him preach because he was a no nonsence minister, who loved every person that came in. I was a Catholic and I know the more someone railed against me the more I dug my heals in until I found the truth. All we can do is present our views. The Holy Spirit has to do the rest. I will say tho, that through his preaching many Catholics came to the Assembly and came to the alter and were saved. Not through hate or pounding, but by learning the whole Word of God. Nothing is stronger.

 

[Leslie_Polley]

Randy,

I do not want to appear that I am ignoring your question so I feel that I should inform you that I no longer discuss theology with Catholics.

Drawmack, I hope you do not leave because you have brought up many good and valid points. I have been gettingn bounced on since I started, Pray about it. Remember…were 2 or 3 gather… God bless

 

[Randy_Carson]

I was a Catholic and I know the more someone railed against me the more I dug my heals in until I found the truth.

Ah…you won’t mind if we try to win you back then?

 

[1beleevr]

Good for you. You may have chosen a narrow and rocky path to follow, but I see that you
have sure footing and won’t slip and fall. As Our Lord has said ( paraphrasing ), “Narrow and difficult is the path to Heaven, and wide and broad is the path to hell”. Many today with their political correctness, pro-choice, etc. have forgotten about God and have chosen the latter path. We, the faithful, should all turn our efforts to correct this situation
instead of picking on and bickering among ourselves. I shudder to think of, and grieve for, all those souls that may be forever lost. God Bless.

]

Once again, thank you! Even though you are catholic and I am not, we think alike on many issues! And I really try not to bicker about trivial things, but rather find common ground, whereby we(fellow Christians) can build a relationship, rather than a wall. We are all part of Christ’s family, even if some of us are considered to be separated. I like to get out into the community, and witness to and share Christ, with whomever is open to hear the word:thumbsup: For too msny yesrs, I was a “pew sitter,” just pretty much doing my weekly “duty,” with an occasional midweek Bible study thrown in. Then I discovered the joys of serving:W-O-W! to see people’s eyes light up, and tear up, when you extol the wonders of a personal relationship with Christ! But, sadly, until the time of His second coming, there will be division among the believers. And because of pride and stubbornness, neither side will give in, and offer to work together for the sake of the Kingdom, rather than the advancement of individual religions!

 

[1beleevr]

I must agree with this statement, purely from direct experiences.

As a Catholic I do not go often to protestant churches, but ut happened to me to go a few times (either with a protestant friend or for a wedding).

Every time the protestant pastor said something bashful agrainst the Catholic Church. Once, during a wedding the protestant pastor told he read the Da Vinci Code and started bashing the Catholic Church as ‘misogynous’.

I really could not understand why they would do that. In my life I had never heard a priest comment against the protestant churches in a sermon, nor I would like to hear a priest slander another community from the pulpit.
I am sure that in the world some priests also commit such abomination of slandering other Christians (although I never experienced it), but such behavior is very unchristian in my opinion.

First I thought I was very unlucky, but asking around cconfirmed to me that ‘anti-catholicism’ is widely preached in protestant churches.

Anti-catholicism is hard-wired in the protestant world, I have come to believe.
I frankly think it’s quite sad.

I do not believe protestants are evil, I want to add, I just find it sad that they are taught to hate.

I am sorry that you have had negative experiences, with “some” Protestant denominations! I just hope that your comments do not suggest that you are painting all non-catholics with the same broad brush I agree that this type of behavior is unChristian, but I also believe there is as much anti non-catholic sentiment out there as there is anticatholicism! I have visited Protestant churches, where the pastor will speak of a diferent faith to contrast belief systems, but I have never perceived these references to be inflammatory or disrespectful! As far as non-catholics be wired for hate, or discrimination against any denomination or sect, I have to disagree; as my mother, who was a Southern Baptist, taught us not to hate, or discriminate against anyone! She was a living breathing billboard for Matthew 22:39! So, if your feelings get hurt, when you go outside your church, just turn the other cheek and pray for your “enemies!”

 

[1beleevr]

Ah…you won’t mind if we try to win you back then?

]

She seems pretty satisfied where she’s at Do you need to win her back?