Anti-Catholicism

[1beleevr]

He is certainly the only king this Christian will bow to. I’ll bow to the Pope out of respect for his office as Vicar of Christ, but that’s it.

]

That’s where I would have to draw the line; I will not bow before, nor kiss the ring of any mortal man! “Every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!”

 

[Prieldedi]

prieldedi: Blessed is the Lamb who was slain:thumbsup: because of Christ’s completed work on the Cross, I can meet Him anywhere and everywhere:thumbsup:YIPPEE! Hebrews 4:16 gives us the comfort of knowing that we can BOLDLY enter the throneroom of grace, something that was once reserved only for priests! Actually, I guess I could say that I do go to priest, a HIGH PRIEST, in the order of Melchisadek! All of your verses are nice and well researched, but none of them COMMAND us to go to the priest for confession At best, you may say that IF one CHOOSES to go to a priest, and believes that the priest can forgive his sins, then, by all means go! With many of us, it’s the belief that man can forgive sins, and the lack of NEED! God bless you!

You are obsessed with the written word, you need to “READ verses” in order to believe. We acknowledge that many things that Jesus said, many of His COMMANDS were not recorded in the Bible, so much so, that St. John tells us that in John 20:30 and 21:25.

With that in mind, reason and logic tells us that not even 1% of all the word that Jesus told His Apostles are in the Bible. Jesus was with the Apostles for a little more than 1000 days. Of His words, what we have is just “the tip of the tip” of the iceberg. I once read that the Bible describes no more than 10-20 days of Jesus’ adult life. Yet many insist on seeing in WRITING every word Jesus said.

What if the Apostles had decided not to write a single word? What would be of you? You’d be lost! Not us Catholics, because we believe IN THE MESSAGE as well as in the MESSENGER, not matter if the message came to us ORALLY or WRITTEN. Huge difference.

The printing industry started in 1450 and, for almost 1900 years, more than 90% of all Christians alive in any given moment in those years were illiterate. Do you really believe that Jesus left His message “tied” to a book that more than 90% of His followers couldn’t read for more that 1900 years, a book that was not “a book” for the first 400 years of Christianity? You know He left us A CHURCH, a TEACHING CHURCH with TEACHERS, and we as STUDENTS. With the reformation, everyone is now a teacher.

"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. " Saint Augustine

“The confession of evil works is the first beginning of good works.” Saint Augustine

God bless you

 

[1beleevr]

You are obsessed with the written word, you need to “READ verses” in order to believe. We acknowledge that many things that Jesus said, many of His COMMANDS were not recorded in the Bible, so much so, that St. John tells us that in John 20:30 and 21:25.

With that in mind, reason and logic tells us that not even 1% of all the word that Jesus told His Apostles are in the Bible. Jesus was with the Apostles for a little more than 1000 days. Of His words, what we have is just “the tip of the tip” of the iceberg. I once read that the Bible describes no more than 10-20 days of Jesus’ adult life. Yet many insist on seeing in WRITING every word Jesus said.

What if the Apostles had decided not to write a single word? What would be of you? You’d be lost! Not us Catholics, because we believe IN THE MESSAGE as well as in the MESSENGER, not matter if the message came to us ORALLY or WRITTEN. Huge difference.

The printing industry started in 1450 and, for almost 1900 years, more than 90% of all Christians alive in any given moment in those years were illiterate. Do you really believe that Jesus left His message “tied” to a book that more than 90% of His followers couldn’t read for more that 1900 years, a book that was not “a book” for the first 400 years of Christianity? You know He left us A CHURCH, a TEACHING CHURCH with TEACHERS, and we as STUDENTS. With the reformation, everyone is now a teacher.

"If you believe what you like in the gospels, and reject what you don’t like, it is not the gospel you believe, but yourself. " Saint Augustine

“The confession of evil works is the first beginning of good works.” Saint Augustine

God bless you

]

B-R-A-V-O!!! That was quite some sermon:thumbsup: And I am not so naive that I do not believe that there were numerous other sayings of Christ that were not recorded in printPlease do not patronize me by grouping me along with those who you have decided are spiritually ignorant! It seems to me though that Jesus would have made a stipulation about the NEED to visit a priest for confession of and forgiveness of sins! Otherwise, we have to believe that what someone says 2009 years later, are the words of Christ! Do you also believe like some that I know, that you cannot be friends with God, or have a personal relationship with Jesus? Or is it too much of a stretch to believe that even if you sin after being saved, that God will allow you to come back(we all sin, okay?)

 

[wisdomseeker]

rinnie & wisdomseeker:
From reading these posts, I see that 1beleevr and Leslie Polley do not fully understand
the teachings of the Church and have never bothered to find out about them, If Leslie
had, she would still be Catholic and 1beleevr would really be interested in it. Instead both
follow the path of error by using sola scriptura, which has resulted in the shameful
fragmentation of Christendom by producing over 30,000 different denominations each of
which has its own version of the teachings and traditions of Jesus and the Apostles. It
is our obligation, as Catholics to present the full truth, as possesed by the Catholic Church, in all charity and try to correct these mis-understandings, mis-interpretations , and myths. Pray first to the Holy Spirit for gudance and understanding.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

well, what can i say. some seek to know the Truth and some never bother with it.

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him” (6:53-56).

 

[wisdomseeker]

]

That’s where I would have to draw the line; I will not bow before, nor kiss the ring of any mortal man! “Every knee will bow, and every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord!”

Yes. that is what Catholics do every time when we receive the Eucharist. we bow our knees and confess that He is. how about you?

“Truly, truly, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, you have no life in you; he who eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. For my flesh is food indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. He who eats my flesh and drinks my blood abides in me, and I in him” (6:53-56).

 

[Prieldedi]

]

B-R-A-V-O!!! That was quite some sermon:thumbsup: And I am not so naive that I do not believe that there were numerous other sayings of Christ that were not recorded in printPlease do not patronize me by grouping me along with those who you have decided are spiritually ignorant! It seems to me though that Jesus would have made a stipulation about the NEED to visit a priest for confession of and forgiveness of sins! Otherwise, we have to believe that what someone says 2009 years later, are the words of Christ! Do you also believe like some that I know, that you cannot be friends with God, or have a personal relationship with Jesus? Or is it too much of a stretch to believe that even if you sin after being saved, that God will allow you to come back(we all sin, okay?)

It was not intended to be a sermon.

I don’t group you with anybody, nor have I decided there are people that are spiritually ignorant.

“Someone” said it 2009 years later? The Church has been saying it for 2009 years!

Confession did not start in 2009. Even the reformers went to confession after having separated from the Church. So the idea of not going to confession is the one that you can brand as “brand new”. Don’t 39,000+ evangelical denominations tell you something is really wrong with evangelism? If any man can separate from his church and start a new one, where will it end? It’s estimated that by the year 2025 there will be over 60,000 evangelical denominations (World Christian Database, a Protestant publication). Each of them preaching a different gospel, while at the same time claiming that the Holy Spirit is guiding them. Does the Holy Spirit guide all these churches to different and opposing truths?

The Church (not the Bible) is the BODY OF CHRIST, therefore, yes, I have a PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP with Him. And just like any relationship, this one is a two way relationship. How can you be sure that Jesus correspond your friendship when you don’t believe His WORDS, given to you by those HE SENT YOU? These are things you should really think about. When we sin and do not confess our sins to a Priest the relationship with Jesus is tarnished.

Someone said: the best of the Protestants (their Pastors) are converting to Catholicism, while the worst of Catholics are converting to Protestantism.

Many Pastors have converted after they embarked in a mission to prove the Catholic Church wrong. The more they studied and investigated the Bible, history, early Christian life, etc., the more they were confronted with the fact they were on the wrong side of Christianity. One of them, Cardinal John Newman, a convert to Catholicism from the Anglican Church, said it best: “To be deep in history is to cease to be Protestant.” Today many radical anti-Catholic Pastors are following in Cardinal Newman’s footsteps.

If you are saved you cannot sin, because by then you’ll be in God’s presence. To put in baseball terms, you don’t score a run by reaching third base. Right now we are, at best, at third base. We haven’t come Home yet. Many will go past third while most are seating in the bench and when they realize the game is over, not to mention those in the seats of the stadium.

Our Church has been preaching for 2000 years confession of the sins to a priest. No Protestant denomination has been preaching for more than 500 years. And as Casey Stengel used to say, “you can look it up.”

God bless you

 

[Javl]

1beleever:
I see from your posts that you claim that we Catholics are arrogant and do not know of what we talk. Might I say in all charity that you are close minded? You refuse to listen
and to engage in useful dialogue. You are the arrogant one who claims to know it all. We
make useful, engaging statements and you rebuff us as if only you know the truth.
I have a personal relationship with Jesus, He has taught me humility and charity towards
those not of my faith. The Holy Spirit has also given me some knowledge of which I speak and He supports me and guides me and prods me to do Christ’s work to the best of my ability. I am no theologian, but I do have 2000 years of Jesus Christ’s and the Apostles truths and traditions to fall back on and back me up in whatever I say. Please listen to us as we listen to you. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[1beleevr]

{

1beleever:
I see from your posts that you claim that we Catholics are arrogant and do not know of what we talk. Might I say in all charity that you are close minded? You refuse to listen
and to engage in useful dialogue. You are the arrogant one who claims to know it all. We
make useful, engaging statements and you rebuff us as if only you know the truth.
I have a personal relationship with Jesus, He has taught me humility and charity towards
those not of my faith. The Holy Spirit has also given me some knowledge of which I speak and He supports me and guides me and prods me to do Christ’s work to the best of my ability. I am no theologian, but I do have 2000 years of Jesus Christ’s and the Apostles truths and traditions to fall back on and back me up in whatever I say. Please listen to us as we listen to you. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

]
I never said that you didn’t know what you were talking bout, but yes you do display arrogance from time to time; something that I myself am guilty of also I do not know it all, but thanks to the guidance and discernment of the Holy Spirit, I am still learning after 42 years of following Jesus:thumbsup:Sadly, even though we have two ears, and two eyes, we don’t always use them and hear each other! Yours is not the only religion, and I did not come into this forum to slam catholics, but to find out why they believe what they do. Believe it or not, I have the utmost respect for all Christians, and non-Christians for tht matter, regardless of denomination! And may God Bless you too, my brother in Christ!

 

[1beleevr]

prieldedi:Hopefully, Christ will come back to get us before 2025! And the number of denominations, has never been a major concern of mine If I can be a tool for Christ on this earth, and plant seeds, the number of denominations will continue to be a non-factor. Confessing to a priest is something that has been a catholic position, and if it works for you, then that is wonderful 42 and a half years of following Christ, and confessing my sins to God through Jesus has been a blessing! Tell me, I heard from a catholic friend of mine, that not going to confession was considered a mortal sin. Is this correct, and how can man determine what is or isn’t a mortal sin?

 

[Prieldedi]

prieldedi:Hopefully, Christ will come back to get us before 2025! And the number of denominations, has never been a major concern of mine If I can be a tool for Christ on this earth, and plant seeds, the number of denominations will continue to be a non-factor. Confessing to a priest is something that has been a catholic position, and if it works for you, then that is wonderful 42 and a half years of following Christ, and confessing my sins to God through Jesus has been a blessing! Tell me, I heard from a catholic friend of mine, that not going to confession was considered a mortal sin. Is this correct, and how can man determine what is or isn’t a mortal sin?

It’s not man determining it, it’s The Church guided by the Holy Spirit.

There is a saying among Catholics, and I believe also from many Christians: the road to hell is paved by men with good intentions.

You seem to have good intentions (I’m not condemning you) wanting to be a tool for God, but don’t you want to be the best of tools? You can’t just say that the number of denominations is a non-factor. If Jesus told the Apostles to be “one”, how can you be sure the 39,000+ denominations is a non-factor for Jesus? If it’s a factor for Jesus (which it is), I can picture Him saying “with friends like these, who needs enemies?”

Have you read Scott Hahn, Stephen K. Ray, Dave Armstrong, John Cardinal Newman, G.K. Chesterton? You should. Read what these former Protestants, some Pastors, some anti-Catholics, have to say now. Read how these Pastors, who knew the Bible in and out, eventually found the True Church in the last place they were willing to look for. Read their refusal to accept what they discovered and their personal struggle to realize and accept that Protestantism is in error. Don’t take it from us, see what some of your own camp are saying. [Cardinal Newman lived in the 19th Century, Chesterton died in 1936.]

There is a book titled Surprised by Truth in which “Eleven Converts Give the Biblical and Historical Reasons for Becoming Catholic”.

There is also The Coming Home Network International, that says this in it’s home page:

"*Welcome, Brothers and Sisters in Christ…

• Are you a non-catholic minister interested in Catholicism? We understand the seriousness of such considerations and the elements of sacrifice that they entail. We’ve been there. The Coming Home Network International was founded to stand beside you and your family on your journeys of faith*."

Check them out.

God bless you

 

[fbl9]

So what is your understanding of John 14:6-7?

Yes the Father is God: the point being is the statement " i only can go to God is through Jesus!" Jesus is not God? please explain how can one get to God through God.

 

[fbl9]

prieldedi:Hopefully, Christ will come back to get us before 2025! And the number of denominations, has never been a major concern of mine If I can be a tool for Christ on this earth, and plant seeds, the number of denominations will continue to be a non-factor. Confessing to a priest is something that has been a catholic position, and if it works for you, then that is wonderful 42 and a half years of following Christ, and confessing my sins to God through Jesus has been a blessing! Tell me, I heard from a catholic friend of mine, that not going to confession was considered a mortal sin. Is this correct, and how can man determine what is or isn’t a mortal sin?

um Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again… nope no mention of before 2025. Yes just imagine the scent of all those different “flowers” mixed together

Do you recieve counselling too? when you confess your sins that is.

 

[1beleevr]

um Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again… nope no mention of before 2025. Yes just imagine the scent of all those different “flowers” mixed together

Do you recieve counselling too? when you confess your sins that is.

]

Yes, it will be quite an aromatic scent; all the same And yes, I do receive counseling and discipline from the ultimate Counselor:thumbsup:

 

[rinnie]

rinnie: If you want to talk about stand-ins or replacements(really, no one can replace God), we, as well as the disciples, are representatives of the Kingdom:thumbsup:Have you ever heard that song,“If We Are The Body,” By Casting Crowns? You, me , and countless other Christians around the world, are, or should be, the hands and feet of Christ. He of course is the Head, but we represent Him while on this earth!

Okay lb then explain this scripture to me.

Jesus told his Apostles in Matt. 28 19-20 Go…teaching all I have commended you.

Matt. 10:1 He summoned his 12 disciples and gave them authority over unclean spirits. (did he or did he not. Do you believe this scripture or don’t you. Is giving someone authority making them a stand in? I have power of attorney over my Mom, would I not be able to speak for her if she cant at the moment?

John 20 21-13 As the Father sent me so I send you. After saying this he breathed on them;;;;;;;;;;If YOU forgive ANYONES SINS they are FORGIVEN. (Did Jesus say that or not?) I mean you either believe it or you don’t.

Now where did Jesus this to you. Who sins YOU forgive are Forgiven etc. Can you retain my sins?

Why did Jesus say in Acts 20:28 That the Holy Spirit appointed you overseers to tend to the needs of the Church. Would that not an overseer be some to stand in. And I never said anyone replace God. No one can. But you said stand in. I agree with that one.

So explain to me why Jesus told his Apostles that they can forgive sins, you are saying this is Catholic teaching. Yes we agree there, It is. But when did it un-become protestant teaching? Does your bible say the same thing? Or is it different. Honestly I do not know? I am asking?

 

[rinnie]

And please show me where the Presbyters were not appointed by the Apostles. I really need to see that scripture. We are all to preach the good word. That is not a Presbyter though.

In Acts 14:22 the Apottles appointed Presbyters by the laying of hands
1 Tim 4:14 The GIFT you have which was CONFERRED ON YOU through the IMPOSITION of the LAYING OF HANDS.

2 Tim 1:6 stir into the flame of God that you HAVE thorugh the Imposition of my hands.

Titus 1:5 APPOINT presbyters in every town as I directed you
1 Tim 5:22
James 5:14

Anyone who is ill should send for the ELDERS of the CHURCH and they must ANOINT the sick person with OIL in the Name of the Lord and Pray Over Them.

Why lb. Why does the elders do this? You claim you can, then why did Jesus tell the people who are sick to send for the elders of the church then?

You know I have alot of Love and respect for you lb you are one of my favorites. But in light of that, SO you know this is said from the goodness of my heart How can you say that I am wrong, and my Faith is wrong when All we are doing is following GOds word. Please give me all of that scripture back according to your bible.

 

[rinnie]

n[SIGN]prieldedi:Hopefully, Christ will come back to get us before 2025! A[/SIGN]d the number of denominations, has never been a major concern of mine If I can be a tool for Christ on this earth, and plant seeds, the number of denominations will continue to be a non-factor. Confessing to a priest is something that has been a catholic position, and if it works for you, then that is wonderful 42 and a half years of following Christ, and confessing my sins to God through Jesus has been a blessing! Tell me, I heard from a catholic friend of mine, that not going to confession was considered a mortal sin. Is this correct, and how can man determine what is or isn’t a mortal sin?

Okay I will bite on this one. First of all why does Jesus have to come back and get us before 2025? The word out on the street and in the gospel is we need to be ready right now at any moment. Only the Father knows the day and time. And he is like that dog in the Bushs baked beans commercial he aint tellen

 

[rinnie]

Now 1b there is a saying the proof is in the pudding. Well do you want the proof or the pudding Heres both.

You deny the Sacrament given by God to his Apostles who were indeed men the authority of the HS to forgive sins. You are not the only one.

In Matt 9 Run and get the scripture…I will wait, and we can read along

Jesus saw their faith. did he not, so seeing their faith he said to the Paralytic take confort your sins are forgiven. Now you not unlike the scribes feel that the Priest are blasphemous do you not agree. Well lets read on to what Jesus said. Why do you have such wicked thoughts in your hearts. Whats easier to say our sins are forgiven or to say GET UP AND WALK. Now this is real real importatant so I am going to make it in all caps

BUT TO PROVE TO YOU THAT THE SON OF MAN HAS AUTHORITY ON EARTH TO FORGIVE SINS he cured the Paralytic.

And then what did they do??? the last sentence. THEY PRAISED GOD FOR HAVING GIVE SUCH AUTHORITY TO HUMAN BEINGS!!!

lB there is no other scripture in the world, no Oral teachings, SS or any other place in the bible that it can be better written then that.

God gave that authority to Human Beings. So there you have it. A priest is indeed a human being like the Apostles who GOD granted this Authority. You say God does not and will not Grant that authority to MEN scripture say otherwise.

 

[wisdomseeker]

**
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1beleevr
rinnie: If you want to talk about stand-ins or replacements(really, no one can replace God), we, as well as the disciples, are representatives of the KingdomHave you ever heard that song,“If We Are The Body,” By Casting Crowns? You, me , and countless other Christians around the world, are, or should be, the hands and feet of Christ. He of course is the Head, but we represent Him while on this earth! **

dont get confused about those whom God place on this earth to testify about Him with replacement of God.

37 And the Father who sent me has himself borne witness to me. His voice you have never heard, his form you have never seen;
38 and you do not have his word abiding in you, for you do not believe him whom he has sent.
39 You search the scriptures, because you think that in them you have eternal life; and it is they that bear witness to me;
40 yet you refuse to come to me that you may have life.
41 I do not receive glory from men.
42 But I know that you have not the love of God within you.
43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not receive me; if another comes in his own name, him you will receive.
44 How can you believe, who receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
45 Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; it is Moses who accuses you, on whom you set your hope. 46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote of me.
47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe my words?"

 

[wisdomseeker]

Now 1b there is a saying the proof is in the pudding. Well do you want the proof or the pudding Heres both.

You deny the Sacrament given by God to his Apostles who were indeed men the authority of the HS to forgive sins. You are not the only one.

In Matt 9 Run and get the scripture…I will wait, and we can read along

Jesus saw their faith. did he not, so seeing their faith he said to the Paralytic take confort your sins are forgiven. Now you not unlike the scribes feel that the Priest are blasphemous do you not agree. Well lets read on to what Jesus said. Why do you have such wicked thoughts in your hearts. Whats easier to say our sins are forgiven or to say GET UP AND WALK. Now this is real real importatant so I am going to make it in all caps

BUT TO PROVE TO YOU THAT THE SON OF MAN HAS AUTHORITY ON EARTH TO FORGIVE SINS he cured the Paralytic.

And then what did they do??? the last sentence. THEY PRAISED GOD FOR HAVING GIVE SUCH AUTHORITY TO HUMAN BEINGS!!!

lB there is no other scripture in the world, no Oral teachings, SS or any other place in the bible that it can be better written then that.

God gave that authority to Human Beings. So there you have it. A priest is indeed a human being like the Apostles who GOD granted this Authority. You say God does not and will not Grant that authority to MEN scripture say otherwise.

remember to them is not what God says, it is what they say it is.

O truth, you are present to those who seek your help, and at one and the same time you answer all, though they seek your counsel on different matters. You respond clearly, but not everyone hears clearly. All ask what they wish, but do not always hear the answer they wish. Your best servant is he who is intent not so much on hearing his petition answered, as rather on willing whatever he hears from you.
St Augustine

 

[rinnie]

Also if I may. Speaking of standing in, or feeling that we needed to be led here is this world this scripture comes to mind.

Matt. 9:36 And when he saw the crowds he felt sorry for them because they were harrased and dejected, like sheep without a shepherd. Then he said to his disciples the Harvest is rich but the labourers are few. So ASK the LORD of the harvest to SEND OUT labourers to harvest.

That kinda touches you right in the middle of your heart does it not. I cannot ever read that scripture and not think of Holy Orders. Being called straight from God to be a Shepherd of the Sheep.

We are the sheep are we not? As you said yourself lB you are still learning. How could a sheep ever lead the Shepherd? If you are called to do Gods work you must know what you are to do. You cannot say this, and then say that. You must know and be guided by the Power of the Holy Spirit. In order for you to rebuke the Sacrament of Confession you must rebut scripture.

The bible itself tells us do not be quick to lay you hands on People, be careful in who you lay those hands on to teach the word of God.

Hebrews 6 says leave behind elementary teachings of Christ and go on to its completion without going over fundamental doctrines again. the turning away from dead actions. Faith in God, the teaching about baptisms and the laying of HANDS, about the resurrection of the dead and eternal judgement.