Anti-Catholicism

[Prieldedi]

I didn’t think this read properly so I looked it up at usccb.org/nab/bible/1peter/1peter5.htm (which is where I get all the biblical quotes I use on this site) and this is what I found, “The chosen one at Babylon sends you greeting, as does Mark, my son.” with a footnote that reads, “The chosen one: feminine, referring to the Christian community (ekklesia) at Babylon, the code name for Rome in Rev 14:8; 17:5; 18:2.”. So here if we do replace chosen one with church as you have done, then church, by the declaration of a footnote in a Catholic Bible, means the community of believers. Protestants are viewed as separated brethren, that is as part of the community of believers, by the Catholic Church. So, to utilize this passage we must admit that the church is an invisible entity which rules over the entire community of believers, those who are in communion with Rome and those who are not. Therefore, it cannot refer to the Roman Catholic Magisterium. Just for fun, let’s look at some of those cross references to Revelation shall we.

People make the Church, and people are physical, so where is the invisibility?
Are the people of a country under an invisible government? The similarities cannot be denied. People, communities, physical beings… Are the Presidency and the President “invisible”? Do the office of the Presidency and the President have authority or not? It’s the same with the Church. We are a gathering of human beings, ones under a civil authority, the others under a Heavenly Authority established to be held by men.

Revelation 14:8 reads, A second angel followed, saying: “Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, that made all the nations drink the wine of her licentious passion.” So, if this statement is to refer to the same entity as that in 1 Peter then we are to believe that this church makes all the nations drink the wine of her licentious passion. So, if this is a reference to the same chosen from 1 Peter than that chosen is licentious or lacking moral discipline, sexually unrestrained. Does that sound like the Catholic Church to you? It doesn’t to me, but I’ll defer to your judgment on the issue.

Babylon in this passage doesn’t refer to Rome but to Jerusalem. Babylon here is called “the great”, not so in 1 Peter. In the Bible there are three cities that are called “great” and Rome is not among them.

Babylon (the real one): Rev 14:8,16:19,17:5,18:2,10,21
Jerusalem: Neh 7:4, Jer 22:8, Lam 1:1, Rev 11:8,16:19,17:18,18:16, Rev 18:18-19,21:10
Nineveh: Jonah 1:2,3:2-3,4:11

I’ll let Bob Stanley to explain it:

Rome in Holy Scripture:
Here is every verse in the Bible that mentions Rome by name:

Visitors from Rome, Acts 2:10
Claudius ordered Jews to leave Rome, Acts 18:2
Paul said he must also see Rome, Acts 19:21
Bear witness in Rome, Acts 23:11
We came to Rome, Acts 28:14
On our arrival at Rome, Acts 28:16
To all GOD’s beloved who are in Rome, Rom 1:7
I am ready to preach the gospel to you also who are at Rome, Rom 1:15,
But when he came to Rome he sought me out, 2Tim 1:17

Where is the coarse and degrading language regarding Rome in Holy Scripture?

Contrast what is written about Jerusalem [below] in Scripture with what is written about Rome [above].

Revelation 18:24, “And in her was found the blood of the prophets, and of saints, and of all that were slain upon the earth.”

Revelation 19:2, “For true and righteous [are] his judgments: for he hath judged the great whore, which did corrupt the earth with her fornication, and hath avenged the blood of his servants at her hand.”

What city is responsible for the blood of the prophets? Is it Rome, or is it Jerusalem?

Matthew 23:37, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, thou that killest the prophets, and stonest them which are sent unto thee, how often would I have gathered thy children together, even as a hen gathereth her chickens under her wings, and ye would not!”

Luke 13:34, “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, killing the prophets and stoning those who are sent to you! How often would I have gathered your children together as a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!”

Again, what city is responsible for the blood of the prophets?
Jesus Christ in Holy Scripture clearly said it is Jerusalem.
Why then do Protestants insist it is Rome, when Holy Scripture does not agree with them?

The only place I could find regarding the Demonizing of Rome, or association of Rome with the Whore of Babylon, is from the false charges spread by Protestantism, as I can find nothing whatsoever from Holy Scripture…

Revelation 17:5… Revelation 18:2…

Same as above.

I think I have sufficiently responded to these questions.

Well, I have too.

Let’s take that verse in it’s entirety. I claim that the church is an invisible entity which oversees the entire communion of believers. Thus if you are in the world and taking breath you are in this church by virtue of being a believer. Thus, this passage is telling us that we know how to behave every moment of our lives. Thus, this passage is telling us that we must act as if we are the physical church every moment of every day because were are in the mystical church every moment of every day. You claim this is talking about a physical church. So you are claiming we are only being called to act this way when we are among believers within the church. One of these interpretations helps us carry out the great commission and one does not.

To behave like Christians is one thing, to call ourselves Authority is another. That’s our difference: you are your own Pope, your own Magisterium. We leave that task to those Jesus chose and to their successors.

God bless you

 

[wisdomseeker]

The church begin with the 12 Apostles. They were to have authority over the Church. they continued the work Jesus commanded them to do. the Church is a set of teachings that Jesus gave to the Apostles. these teachings written and verbals were to be preserved to the end. who is in charge of these teachings? the Church that begun with the Apostles or churches that begin when the Bible was taking illicit from the CC? remember, the Church begun with the authorities chosen by God and not with the people. the people were to come into the Church through these authorities. authority given by Christ. it did not started with people holding Bibles in their hands.

all it takes is little study of the history of the Church. what the early Christians believed and what Bible churches believes today. that is all. but i know that other sects of Christianity rejects the Fathers of the Church and all early Christians beliefs.

the Church did not cease to exist after the Apostles died. that is why we know what is in the Bible today. the Church decided when the writings were to stop. but the writings continued. the Fathers and Saints of the Church continued with the writings about the Church and enterpretations of Sacred Scriptures. it is available to everyone. but one must be willing to seek the Truth.

One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. The True Church. there is no other.

there are many sects of Christianity that left the Church and the spreaded throughtout the world with different teachings which are not the True Teachings of our Lord.

because they acquired the Bible. they think, they know at all. the Teachings of the Catholic Church are protected by Jesus, therefore, no one can know or understand if he is outside.

**“Love men, slay error, without pride be bold in the Truth, without cruelty fight for the Truth.” St Augustine **

 

[Javl]

Do you like ignoring what someone said and making a completely different point?

What am I ignoring? What you have said and the way it’s prsented leads me to believe that it refers to you. I am answering your statement.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[Prieldedi]

Revelation 14:8 … Revelation 17:5 … Revelation 18:2 …

To clear the fact that these verses have been said to refer to Rome: they have been understood to refer, not to the Rome of the Popes, but to the Rome of the Pagan Emperors. A huge difference, just like today’s Berlin is not the same Berlin of 1932-1945.

From the Haydock’s Catholic Bible Commentary, 1859 edition:

"By Babylon, as observed before, may very probably be signified all the wicked world in general, whom God will punish and destroy after the short time of this mortal life: or may be signified every great city, and perhaps Rome returned to idolatry in the time of antichrist, a little before the end of the world, or may be signified the idolatry of heathen Rome, in the fourth age [century], when the Christian religion, under Constantine and his successors, began to triumph over paganism, i.e. according to those interpreters followed by Alcazar, Bossuet, P. Alleman, &c. which exposition Dr. Hammond thus expresseth: “the whole impure city of heathen Rome, under the title of Babylon, that old idolatrous city that had lain so heavy upon the people of God…should speedily be destroyed, for advancing the heathen worship.” (Witham) — It is probable that here by the great Babylon is meant the city of the devil; that is, the universal society of the wicked: as Jerusalem is taken for the city and the Church of God. (Challoner)

…

These heretics were followed in some points by Wycliffe and his disciples; but perhaps upon a strict examination, they only meant that the pope and bishops taught antichristian doctrine, and so were to be esteemed adversaries of Christ and precursors of antichrist. We may look upon Luther (though he denied the Apocalypse of St. John to be canonical Scripture) and the Lutherans and Calvinists, to be the true inventors of this empty and incoherent fable of the popish antichrist, twelve hundred years after the popes had successively one after another been the one, great, and famous antichrist. These lovers of novelty, liberty, and Church lands found the obscure revelations in the Apocalypse very convenient for their arbitrary fancies, where they could make the wicked Babylon not signify the heathen Roman empire, with St. Irenæus and the primitive fathers, but to be the Christian popish Rome; and the scarlet whore must be the popes and cardinals who wear scarlet and purple."

It’s a fact also that there are no authentic historical documents in which the Catholic Church or Rome is called the Whore of Babylon before the Protestant reformation of the 1500’s. So this is a Protestant fabrication. Look what Luther wrote against the Book of Revelation:

“…to my mind it bears upon it no marks of an apostolic or prophetic character… Everyone may form his own judgment of this book; as for myself, I feel an aversion to it, and to me this is sufficient reason for rejecting it.” Sammtliche Werke, 63, pp. 169-170

There you have it. Protestants use fabricated interpretation of verses from a book rejected by their founder to attack our Church.

God bless you

 

[Drawmack]

No-one worships a church. However we are told by Jesus to join and remain in His ONE Church.

I was responding to someone who, in fact, said that they believe the RCC is God. So, either they do not believe this, they do not worship God, or they do, in fact, worship the RCC. You might not hold this view, but someone does and that someone is the person I was responding to.

 

[Drawmack]

try this one then. “One Faith, One Baptism, One Lord, One Church. One Spirit.”

are you saying that Catholics and protestants are of One Faith, One Spirit…?

**“Love men, slay error, without pride be bold in the Truth, without cruelty fight for the Truth.” St Augustine **

Yes, I agree with the Catechism of the Catholic Church that Catholics and Protestants are both Christians and therefore both of One Faith and One Spirit (the Holy Spirit). Are you saying that you disagree with the CCC?

 

[Drawmack]

Prieldedi:
I am done responding to you, Prieldedi, until you can specifically answer the questions I asked you. All of them but especially the ones about by whose authority you are working when you change scripture for posting in these forums.

Although, I will respond to one thing because it is another question you need to answer. I read a footnote in a Bible with the Imprimatur which says that those passages from Revelation are about Rome. So, are you in error when you tell me they are not about Rome or is the Magisterium in error when they give this Bible the Imprimatur?

 

[bookgirl32]

When it comes to salvation and how one is saved there really are not that many teachings and anything outside of that is simply theological minutia.

Not that many!!! TULIP, OSAS, baptism vs. decisional regeneration (non-infant vs. infant baptism at that) – those three things alone are huge differences in belief of how we are saved! Would you call those theological minutia?

Within the Catholic Church there are over 20 Rites.

Who all adhere to one, absolute, and clear truth. There is no different doctrine in any of these rites.

According to Rome the Orthodox Churches have valid sacraments, but according to the Orthodox Churches Rome does not have valid sacraments.

The Orthodox Church is not in union with the Catholic Church. Therefore their differences in belief are not a valid example of any difference in doctrine within the Catholic Church itself.

The Catholic Church contains Thomists and Molonists.

Do you understand what the differences between these two are? There is no disagreement with any Catholic doctrine in either one.

But, you proclaim one single and unified theology. That simply is not true! Catholics are unified on about as much as Protestants are.

And that is simply not true. Do you have any other arguments other than what you listed above?

 

[wisdomseeker]

Yes, I agree with the Catechism of the Catholic Church that Catholics and Protestants are both Christians and therefore both of One Faith and One Spirit (the Holy Spirit). Are you saying that you disagree with the CCC?

St. Irenaeus, second century
“As I have already observed, the Church, having received this preaching and this faith from the Apostles, although scattered throughout the world, yet as if occupying one house, carefully preserves it.” For the churches which have been planted in Germany do not believe or hand down anything different, nor do those in Spain, nor do those in Gaul, nor do those in the East, nor do those in Egypt, nor do those in Libya, nor do those which have been established in the central regions of the world."

good luck to you.

 

[Ignatius]

Hey everyone. The more I look into the Catholic faith, the more I realize that people in general just don’t like it. All I’ve seen were extremes; you either love it or you hate it. I haven’t really seen many in-betweens yet, especially among protestants. Personally, I love God’s church and look forward to joining it. But… why do so many people hate it? The Catholic church seems to get twice as much hate as protestantism and other religions. Maybe it’s just because the area where I live is mostly dominated by Baptists and non-denominational protestants. Still, they even seem to have a bad rep online. What’s your opinion on this matter?

Persecution is a sure sign that you’re on the right track
This should be the key to knowing that it is the Church that Jesus Christ founded. Jesus Himself said in John 15:20 “Remember the word that I said to you, ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you”, and Mat 5:11 “Blessed are you when men revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account.
Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven”

Of all of the Christian churches, Only the Catholic Church is so reviled and lied about, this is proof that we have found the Church of Jesus Christ; so be of good cheer, you’re in the right place.

Yours in Christ.

 

[Prieldedi]

I am done responding to you, Prieldedi, until you can specifically answer the questions I asked you. All of them but especially the ones about by whose authority you are working when you change scripture for posting in these forums.

Although, I will respond to one thing because it is another question you need to answer. I read a footnote in a Bible with the Imprimatur which says that those passages from Revelation are about Rome. So, are you in error when you tell me they are not about Rome or is the Magisterium in error when they give this Bible the Imprimatur?

I believe I have answered your questions. If not, can you tell me which ones I have not answered? These are all your questions addressed to me so far:

Here’s your straw man back, why don’t you put him up in your corn field where he might actually do some good? - From your post #369, answered in my post #380.

Might I ask why you capitalized the word churches? - From your post #369, answered in my post #380.

Who heals the lame man? It is Paul? Is it the Church? No, it is Jesus Christ! - From your post #369, answered in my post #380.

Does that sound like the Catholic Church to you? - From your post #370, answered in my post #381.

Does that sound like the Catholic Church to you? - From your post #370, answered in my post #381.

Does that sound like the Catholic Church to you? - From your post #370, answered in my post #381.

As for you, you still have one answer pending. This will be the third time I ask you: if Luther was right and the Catholic Church was wrong, why aren’t you a Lutheran? [Check my posts #355 and #380]

OK then, Rome or Jerusalem? [Read my post #384 on page 26]
We are not in error. It can mean both. It can be Rome, but not the Rome of the Popes by any chance. When John wrote the Apocalypse Rome was the capital of a pagan Empire and it stayed like that for nearly 300 more years. If it means Rome it’s more likely that it refers to Rome before it stopped killing Christians (33-313 AD). In that case, the “prophets and saints” blood is the blood of the Christians killed by the pagan Roman Emperors, and the fall of the pagan Roman Empire fulfills “Babylon has fallen”.

But to some scholars the prophesy of this passage was fulfilled before the death of the last of the Apostles. There is the belief that the Apocalypse (Revelation) was written BEFORE the year 70. Apocalypse 14:8 is tied to Apocalypse 18:24, “In this city [Babylon] was found blood of prophets and saints - yes, the blood of all who have been slain on the earth.” Jerusalem is the city that killed prophets [John the Baptist for one], not Rome. The Temple of Jerusalem was destroyed “Babylon has fallen?”] in the year 70 AD, thus fulfilling this vision of John while he was still alive. Remember, Jerusalem was killing Christians before the year 70 AD [Paul was there], so the name Babylon can be applied to Jerusalem as well. Anyway, if Rome is what you think it is, it has never meant to be understood as Rome under the Popes. But then again, if you still believe it’s meant to be Rome under the Popes, who are the prophets that have been killed by Catholic Rome? Can you give us one name, just one prophet’s name killed by a Catholic Pope?

God bless you

 

[Javl]

Drawmack:

I say this in all charity. I see from your posts you know nothing about Catholicism and you
have closed your mind to learning about it. You seem to believe in and accept all the errors, myths, lies and mis-conceptions about it. Please, for once listen and engage in useful dialogue and learn what Catholicism trully is. Pray to the Holy Spirit. He will help
you has He has helped us. God Bless.

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[rinnie]

If you choose to worship a church as it if were God feel free but that is not what the Bible teaches me.

Oh yes it does. Pick up your bible and read it. ITs like prego ITS IN THERE!

Acts 9:3 It happened that while he was traveling to Damascus and approaching the city suddenly a LIGHT from HEAVEN shone all round him. He fell to the ground and then he heard as voice saying Saul Saul why are you persecuting ME? Who are you Lord he asked, and the answer came I AM JESUS the ONE you ARE PERSECUTING.

NowI understand you think you know much more than I. But are you going to tell me now that you deny that Paul was persecuting the CHURCH? ANd that Jesus did not say to Paul that he was the CHURCH?

I do not see the CHurch as you. As a building. I see the Church as Christ said it was HIM. The living CHRIST, with the LIVING EUCHARIST, and Sacraments. Just like Jesus said. I will not leave your orphans.

 

[rinnie]

yes, you did very good. the last is about how the early Christians died, did they die for an invisible Church? or visible Church? you are brilliant. it just shows how one understands the Faith.

i thought that all my questions were very clear… of course if one came up with the idea of invisible Church none of what i said makes any sense.

**“Love men, slay error, without pride be bold in the Truth, without cruelty fight for the Truth.” St Augustine **

Especially when we believe that the Church is Jesus. And we don’t think he was invisible either But hey:shrug: We can only do the best we can.

 

[wisdomseeker]

Especially when we believe that the Church is Jesus. And we don’t think he was invisible either But hey:shrug: We can only do the best we can.

of course we dont expect any one outsied the Church to understand what we understand what the Church is. the Body of Christ. Christ and His Body is one.

i just read here someone saying that a Catholic called the Church Jesus therefore we are worshipping the Church. i guess i understimated of how dificult it is to argue wiht people who have a complete view of Sacred Scriptures.

:byzsoc:

 

[rinnie]

I was responding to someone who, in fact, said that they believe the RCC is God. So, either they do not believe this, they do not worship God, or they do, in fact, worship the RCC. You might not hold this view, but someone does and that someone is the person I was responding to.

Its me. I am the guilty person. And I still believe it too. Because Jesus told me so. Here let me show MORE!

Romans 12:4-5 Though many we are one body in Christ
1 Cor 6:15 don’t you know that your bodies are members of Christ
l Cor 12:20-27 You are Christs body individually part of it
Eph, 5:30 we are members of his body
Col. 1:18 He is the HEAD OF THE BODY, THE CHURCH!

See I told ya. The Church is the BODY OF CHRIST.

St Cyprian (c. 250 AD. God is one and Christ is one and ONE is HIS CHURCH and the faith is one, and his people welded together by the glue of the concord into a solid unity of body. Unity cannot be rent asunder nor can the one body of the Church through the division of it structure be divided into separate pieces.

See St Cyprian see’s it that way too.

See we a Catholics do not see the Church as a building being run by a man. We see the Church as the Living Christ on earth being run by the Holy Spirit.

The Church is the pillar and foundation of Truth. Now does that sound like Jesus Christ. The Pillar ad Foundation of the Truth? IT does to me. I am sorry drawmack that you do not feel that way about your Church. But don’t you think you should?

 

[rinnie]

of course we dont expect any one outsied the Church to understand what we understand what the Church is. the Body of Christ. Christ and His Body is one.

i just read here someone saying that a Catholic called the Church Jesus therefore we are worshipping the Church. i guess i understimated of how dificult it is to argue wiht people who have a complete view of Sacred Scriptures.

:byzsoc:

Hey WS wonder who drawback thought Paul was persecuting if not the church? And wonder how he will try to make that scripture go away when Jesus himself said he was the Church? We will see

 

[JustaServant]

If you choose to worship a church as it if were God feel free but that is not what the Bible teaches me.

We ARE saved by the Church. Jesus explained to St. Paul that He and His church are ONE. Persecute His church and you persecute Jesus. Accept His church and you accept Jesus. Reject His church and you reject Jesus. You can not seperate the two and say that we are saved by Jesus and not by the church because the two are ONE.

 

[Javl]

Hey WS wonder who drawback thought Paul was persecuting if not the church? And wonder how he will try to make that scripture go away when Jesus himself said he was the Church? We will see

WS and Drawmack:
Christ IS THE CHURCH and we worship Him. Church does not mean a building. We don’t worship buildings. Church means a community or family of believers. The Catholic Church is this community and we worship God alone and follow His teachings. We reject or change none. Since the Catholic Church is His Church and He is THE CHURCH, we worship the Church. ( see all previous posts ).

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

 

[rinnie]

WS and Drawmack:
Christ IS THE CHURCH and we worship Him. Church does not mean a building. We don’t worship buildings. Church means a community or family of believers. The Catholic Church is this community and we worship God alone and follow His teachings. We reject or change none. Since the Catholic Church is His Church and He is THE CHURCH, we worship the Church. ( see all previous posts ).

PAX DOMINI

Shalom Aleichem

Thanks for your post Javl. But my buddy WS agrees with us to. You must have misunderstood her post.