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sedonaman
Guest
Help me out. Could you lay out the cause-and-effect sequence of events from the pastor’s wanting to burn the Koran to the director who made the “offensive” film? Thx.
Anti-Islam Minister Terry Jones Says He Feels No Responsibility for U.S. Ambassador’s Death
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austenbosten
Guest
Let’s face it, we have an intentional double standard in this country today that is born of malice towards christianity and passive cowardice in regards to Islam. Add those two together, and what you get is judgements that it is the film makers fault that these bloodthirsty savages went on a killing rampage.
Completely agree
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yukonbrad
Guest
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austenbosten
Guest
This is not about Christians defending book burnings, this is about Christians condemning a group of radicals who murder, rape and pillage anything and everything if their self-sanctimonious views are ever slightly impugned.
Ignoring the theological implications for a moment…
It is not right, nor is it moral to look at a case where a jester does a “pull my finger joke” and a group of people who are offend, go around lynching the town mayor, burning down city hall, looting the local church, murdering townsfolk and screaming “Death to fart jokes!” and proceed to cast judgment equally on the jester.
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yukonbrad
Guest
But many are treating this just that way. What happened and continues to happen is reprehensible but so is this so called pastors actions both past and present. As far as I am concerned niether the pastor can call himself christian nor can those organizing and carrying out these attacks can call themselves muslims - I refer to both as animals.
As a side note should someone alert the Canadian department of Foriegn Affairs that we may need to rescue some embassy staff as we did in 1979 (6 staffers were hidden by the Canadian Embassy in Tehran and were eventually smuggled out as “Canadians”). Just mentioning it since the US admin doesn’t seem to understand the gravity of the situation.
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Myqyl
Guest
The cause-effect doesn’t go from the pastor to the filmmaker (at least not directly, although the case could be made). Rather it goes from the so-called pastor to the hightened tensions in Islamic countries and to the increased danger to Americans serving in those countries. I travel abroad quite often and have seen the tensions caused by Americans sitting safely at home expressing their First Amendment Rights. If he wants to burn a Quaran, he should do so in Ciaro, not in Florida. Then he can experiance the effect of his actions instead of just inflicting them on others that likely disagree with him.
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austenbosten
Guest
Except the Koran disagrees with you,
and there are hundreds more verses I can quote.
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yukonbrad
Guest
And you think every muslim takes this literally? Nice to take lines out of context just as those who attack the Catholic faith do.
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Eric_Hilbert
Guest
General warning
Tone down the rhetoric.
Tone down the rhetoric.
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robwar
Guest
I think these riots are not about this one pastor or movie. I seriously doubt a majority of people support him burning books or making a movie that mock or might mock Mohammed. However, the people responsible for the killings and riots are responsible for their own actions. Attacking another countries embassy is an act of war and the governments or what is left of them are responsible to protect them. I just learned that our own marines that guard these places were not allow to have live bullets to defend our own.
In some way we have betrayed our own people in these places and it is a shame. To think some lone obscure pastor should apologize for causing this when most Christians no matter what denomination they are don’t go around burning Korans or mocking Mohammed do not support his behavior is rather ridiculous.
In some way we have betrayed our own people in these places and it is a shame. To think some lone obscure pastor should apologize for causing this when most Christians no matter what denomination they are don’t go around burning Korans or mocking Mohammed do not support his behavior is rather ridiculous.
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Myqyl
Guest
I could supply an equal number of verses out of context from the Bible which will paint us as memebrs of a “terrorist religion” as well… From the Old Testament commands to kill everyone in a town and take no prisoners (Referred to as a Ban I believe) through the New Testement command that if your right hand offends you, cut it off. Neither the Bible nor the Quoran is meant to be read a line at a time with no thought to context.
Most Muslims I know are peace loving, prayerful people. They are ashamed of the radical Muslims that get all the air time on the nightly news. Just as I am often ashamed of the actions of some “Christians” that seem to also get most of the attention on CNN and FOX.
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sedonaman
Guest
Then I don’t see how you could make that case if “the cause-effect doesn’t go from the pastor to the filmmaker (at least not directly. …).” If I criticized Islam, would that make Pastor Jones more responsible? I don’t’ think so.
Also, your analogy
is a false one since the hypothetical woman would be directly procuring an abortion and is thus an active participant rather than remotely, if that, connected.
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robwar
Guest
Sometimes your government has more brains than ours and your last line is absolutely correct. This big mess can be traced to our support of this so called Arab spring. We have betrayed our own and not protected ourselves as we should have.
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sedonaman
Guest
To paraphrase an old saying, “If brains were dynamite, our government wouldn’t have enough to blow its own nose.”
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robwar
Guest
That is the funniest analogy I’ve read. The best points are often made with humor.
lol
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robwar
Guest
I don’t know whether to laugh or cry. laugh at your point, cry because it is too true about our own government and it’s stupidity.
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Boulder257
Guest
I agree in that these individuals should be condemned. You’ll notice I never defended them and even pointed out that their actions are unwarranted and wrong. However, that does not, by itself, make the pastor’s actions okay. Certainly the reaction was innapropriate, but so was what the pastor is doing/has done. Furthermore, you’ll notice that I never said the pastor was guilty of causing these actions at all, I just said that his actions are wreckless and dangerous. I think you are putting words in my mouth that I went out of my way to avoid.
Lastly, your analogy really isn’t a fair or even close comparison to what we are discussing. If you truly think these two situations are comparable, than that’s your perogative, but I happen to see a difference between a fart joke and inflammatory comments/actions made about one’s religion.
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sedonaman
Guest
I don’t’ think he is putting words in your mouth. First you say the reaction [ostensibly to the movie] was inappropriate, then you say words to the effect that lead us to believe the pastor is responsible for it because of his threat to burn a Koran. What does the Koran burning threat have to do with the movie? No one has drawn a connection other than they are insults to Islam. Well, there have been plenty of those. Are they all connected directly? If so, how?
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Boulder257
Guest
I can’t seem to find anywhere where I brought up him burning the Koran. I specifically used generalities regarding his behavior. I am not limiting his actions solely to the Koran burning or his support of this movie; however, that certainly is another example of his actions and their potential motives. I am sorry if I did not make myself clear. Let me be clear - his actions, including but not limited to, the Koran burning and the championing of this movie are inflammatory and irresponsible behavior that I believe shows a pattern.
As for the response, it most certainly put words into my mouth in that it suggests I somehow support the response and hold the pastor responsible, if even to a small degree. I made it clear that I do neither. However, my point, my sole point, is that this man is dangerous because he does not do works that further the Kingdom of Heaven and for that reason we really should not be making comments that excuse his behavior. I find it surprising that so many on here would defend his actions as free speech when I am fairly certain that as Christians we should be condemning his actions as well as the reactions.
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sedonaman
Guest
I mentioned that because that’s what he is known for. I assumed [perhaps naively] that some believe that his threat to burn the Koran was the ultimate cause of the ambassador’s death, as the OP title suggests.
Where in this thread does it say that he champions this movie? Did I miss something?
Can you describe this pattern?
Now I think you are putting words in our mouths. Here’s a thought: How are Muslims going to live in a world that has free societies if they don’t understand that occasionally they are going to hear things that are offensive to them? Not that we should go around and purposely offend them, but are we to die just so they don’t get offended? Remember the Koran flushing? Some people were killed before it got out that is was a Muslim who tried to flush a Koran down his toilet in an attempt to block the sewers. It didn’t take too much thought to conclude that a book that size would not fit down the drain.
If there is any pattern, it is increasing the false alarm rate by increasing the sensitivity. No insults to Islam → no insults to Mohammed → no insults to Muslims → Israel’s existence is an insult to Islam → the entire West is an insult to Islam. Where does it end?
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