Anti-Mornonism in the email from Catholic Answers!

[why_me]

Paul,
Thanks for enlightening up about JS, please feed us more facts because the way mormons argue, they think they have all the truth.

Sort of like many of the catholics on this forum. Facts are hard to come by when it comes to religion. The early christian apostles were certainly not perfect when chosen by Christ and neither was Joseph Smith. In fact, it seems that the lord picks the least likely candidates to do his work.

 

[rikkk1958]

Sort of like many of the catholics on this forum. Facts are hard to come by when it comes to religion. The early christian apostles were certainly not perfect when chosen by Christ and neither was Joseph Smith. In fact, it seems that the lord picks the least likely candidates to do his work.

Of course many catholics dont have all the facts about JS that is why I am glad some went through it and found more evidences of the real truth, unfortunately bad ones. I grew up not minding all other religions aside from catholicism and I did not intend to but since I joined this forum, I realized how mistaken are those other denominations especially the mormons. About the mistakes of early christians, I do not have problem with that and it is acceptable to me because they only differ on their interprettions of the scriptures, in contrast to JS that proved his testimony were based on fraud. Your religion is nothing else diferent than muslims, iglesia ni cristo, etc whose intentions were to start another. If I were you, stick with the original and you will find peace in your heart. You will not be spending your time defending the fraud who made you like you are now. Wake up!

 

[why_me]

Of course many catholics dont have all the facts about JS that is why I am glad some went through it and found more evidences of the real truth, unfortunately bad ones. I grew up not minding all other religions aside from catholicism and I did not intend to but since I joined this forum, I realized how mistaken are those other denominations especially the mormons. About the mistakes of early christians, I do not have problem with that and it is acceptable to me because they only differ on their interprettions of the scriptures, in contrast to JS that proved his testimony were based on fraud. Your religion is nothing else diferent than muslims, iglesia ni cristo, etc whose intentions were to start another. If I were you, stick with the original and you will find peace in your heart. You will not be spending your time defending the fraud who made you like you are now. Wake up!

Calling another religion a fraud is one thing. Actually proving it is quite another. The lds faith has not been proven a fraud and this is why it still exists. But if some people on this forum wish to call the mormon faith a fraud or any faith a fraud that is their business.

But proven it is quite another ball of wax.

 

[ibkc]

Calling another religion a fraud is one thing. Actually proving it is quite another. The lds faith has not been proven a fraud and this is why it still exists.

It has been shown to be a fraud many times over, going back to its earliest days. The reason it exists is because one man, Brigham Young, managed to lead a group into the wilderness, far away from the rest of civilization, and establish a theocracy with himself at its head. He knew that the Mormons could not co-exist with the rest of the US because the freedoms allowed would expose his “church” as the fraud it was and is. In his tightly controlled theocracy, opposition was squelched and that is what gave the LDS “church” the opportunity to grow.

 

[JamesDobbins]

You can argue all day that mormonism is true, or that Catholicism is true, and accomplish nothing to change the mind of anyone. If you want to investigate the truth, do it on the basis of fact as recorded in the mormon doctrine. You will not find mormon doctrine in the Book of Mormon. It is in the Doctrines and Covenants, which are available on the LDS website in Salt Lake. When Joseph Smith wrote these, he claimed he received them all from Jesus Christ Himself over a period of about 3 years. There are about 137 and each is composed of multiple sub-parts. They cover a wide range of issues and to see what the actual doctrine is with regard to a given topic, you have to go through them all and extract what is said on that topic, then lay them out together. If you do this, for example, on what he says about God, you see a progression from saying Jesus is perfect and never lies, and other fairly orthodox claims, to a series of modified views where Jesus cannot make up his mind, contradicts what he prevously said, sends the people on wild goose chases after money, and eventually says God the Father is just one of many gods who make up a council of gods, and denies Jesus was responsible for the creation of everything that has been created, as stated in the opening of John’s gospel, even though he also says he must re-translate the bible, but the writings of John are not to be changed. He uses the term re-translate, even though he tries to re-write, not re-translate, since he has no original sources to translate from and does not know the original Aramaic and Greek he would have to use to re-translate. He also claims that after death, provided a man has his Temple credentials, and says the right words and makes the right signs as he walks the path to the entry of heaven, he becomes a god equal to Jesus. This, of course, is the ancient sin Lucifer succumed to and the trap of inordinate pride he led Adam and Eve to commit, You will be god and answer to no one but yourself. It is all there in black and white. This is why the mormons never proselytize on the basis of doctrine and beliefs, but focus on lifestyle. The one conclusion you come to as you analyze the doctrines and covenants is that Joseph Smith was a complete fraud, not a prophet, and that the mormon religion is decidedly not Christian because the god they say they believe in and pray to is not the God of Christianity as God revealed Himself to be.

Jim Dobbins

 

[Andytnm]

Whyme is right. Facts are hard to come by when religion is being debated. Everyone here will say that I am a naive mormon, yet I think all of you are naive to my religion. I also belive you are naive to your church. Paul were you LDS? If so how come you stated that we vote in positions in the church when we don’t? And Majick, you do not have experience because seniority is not what determines it either. The recent apostles that were called into the first presidency of the church were among the youngest apostles.
Joseph Smith had his first vision when he was 14. He was persecuted long before there were even converts to the church. He was a prohpet of God and thats why people followed him. They had their free agency to join or leave the church, and many chose to follow him and left their homes under great persecution themselves. He could not “command” any girl to bed with him. You are so full of ****. I know there are false stories many of you have read.
Yes we have seen how people will follow charismatic leaders no matter what they are teaching, but I doubt Joseph Smith with a 3rd grade education at age 14 was very charismatic.
If I sound like a return missionary than I am proud of it. As a missionary your life is studying scriptures, praying to God, and preaching. You put yourself in such a spiritual position that you cannot be decieved. The spirit confirmed the truth of my religion to me 10 times stronger because I was a missionary. You don’t think i’ve heard what many people claim to have happened in mormon history? That stuff is either misinterpreted, or flat out lied about.
The 300 years of persecution of christians before constantine was part of the reason the church fell into apostasy.
I wouldn’t call the council of Nicea very successful since hundreds of factions eventually broke away from the Catholic church once they finally got their religious freedom.
Yes Islamic religions have been around for a long time, not because they were forced into it, but because it is their tradition and way of life.
Hosemonky, it is not very christian to disrespect a people who were ACTUALLY persectuted for their belief. They went to Utah because they did not have a choice. Read your history. They tried staying out east many times, starting a number cities. But ignorant people such as yourself drove them away.

 

[ibkc]

Whyme is right. Facts are hard to come by when religion is being debated.

That isn’t true, actually. There are plenty of reliable sources available for most religions that have existed in modern times, and they’re easy to find in the internet age.

What is true is that some participants in debate threads will trot out the same old tired rumors, lies and misconceptions. Normally that isn’t the case when talking about the LDS church though - what happens in these threads is that someone will quote something from the LDS church’s own documents, and then the Mormons will say it’s not true. It’s in turns maddening, hilarious and very sad.

Everyone here will say that I am a naive mormon, yet I think all of you are naive to my religion.

On the contrary, I believe most people here are quite knowledgeable about your religion.

Your problem is not so much naivete but a complete lack of a solid grounding in history - REAL history, the kind taught in non-LDS-controlled environments.

The 300 years of persecution of christians before constantine was part of the reason the church fell into apostasy.

This is an odd claim. The conventional wisdom that I am aware of is that the persecutions drew the early church closer together. You must realize that it wasn’t 300 years of constant persecution, and also that the Roman Empire was very large, so that Christians may have been in more danger in one area and not in so much danger in another, and this changed from emperor to emperor. For instance, during the reign of Marcus Aurelius, Christians in the actual city of Rome did not have to endure the severe persecutions that other Christians did elsewhere. During the reign of MA’s son Commodus, there were hardly any persecutions anywhere in Empire. Also, Christians in some of the more far-flung places (such as Britain) were generally secure no matter who the Emperor was.

That said, can you explain how the persecutions forced the early church into apostasy? Also, other Mormons on here have claimed that the early church was pretty much in apostasy within 20 years of Jesus’ death. If that is the case, then how could the next 300 years have any bearing on anything?

I wouldn’t call the council of Nicea very successful since hundreds of factions eventually broke away from the Catholic church once they finally got their religious freedom.

And all of them, except for a few radical sects, took the Nicene Creed with them. The Nicene Creed is the baseline profession of Christian faith. I’d say that’s pretty successful.

Yes Islamic religions have been around for a long time, not because they were forced into it, but because it is their tradition and way of life.

Hold up there kiddo. This is just flat-out, demonstrably bad, incorrect history. Of all the world’s religions, Islam is the only one that has been spread primarily by military conquest and forced conversions. The spread of Christianity was, for the most part, bloodless. Especially interesting to note is the rather amazing, fast, bloodless conversions of the ‘barbarian’ areas of Ireland and Scotland.

Hosemonky, it is not very christian to disrespect a people who were ACTUALLY persectuted for their belief.

Their beliefs in the destruction of the free press, the traditional marriage union and family unit, and to the form of government of the US: constitutional, representative republicanism. The early Mormons wanted theocracy.

They went to Utah because they did not have a choice. Read your history. They tried staying out east many times, starting a number cities. But ignorant people such as yourself drove them away.

I will agree with this except for the part where those who drove the Mormons out of the eastern part of the country being ‘ignorant.’ They were pragmatic. A theocracy based on a new religion which repudiates much of what the dominant society stands for cannot reasonably co-exist in that dominant society. The Mormons had to go far to the west to get their way in that. But in the end, they showed themselves willing to make concessions and drop their more radical teachings in exchange for the privilege of rejoining the mainstream of the United States. This is one thing I give them a little credit for.

 

[PaulDupre]

Paul were you LDS?

Yes.

If so how come you stated that we vote in positions in the church when we don’t?

Where did I say that you vote? The only post of mine that ever mentioned it was this one:

Hi TOm,
We all understand the concept in theory. But those of us that have been LDS know that no one ever doesn’t sustain the GAs and the things they propose (unless he is looking to get ex’d or disfellowshipped). Anyone who does not sustain the prophet and his teachings is, by definition, an apostate. And no LDS wants to be suspected of apostacy.

Besides, by the time the matter is submitted for sustaining by the faithful, it is already a fait accompli. Whatever changes are proposed were enacted before the matter was ever presented in sacrament meeting or general conference. Your sustaining vote has no effect on whether or not the changes are enacted.

So the faithful raise their hands as a matter of routine, without ever critically evaluating the merits of the proposal being sustained.

In actual practice, what the prophet says goes. Period. I understand that the process of sustaining is for your spiritual benefit and is not a “vote” per se. How is it significant then that a doctrine is “accepted by common consent” when the surety of unanimous acceptance is built into the process?

God bless you,
Paul

Paul

 

[hosemonkey]

“But in the end, they showed themselves willing to make concessions and drop their more radical teachings in exchange for the privilege of rejoining the mainstream of the United States. This is one thing I give them a little credit for.”

On the other hand, the mormons were willing to drop a practice that was “a divine revelation from Almighty God” to Joseph Smith, the practice of which was a guarantee of exaltation in heaven, for the possibility of admission to statehood. Let’s see now, what is more important, exaltation in heaven or admission to statehood? If the practice of polygamy was of God, the mormons should have fought to the death to retain the practice. Not worth it, eh? They instead opted to join the Union.

 

[ibkc]

On the other hand, the mormons were willing to drop a practice that was “a divine revelation from Almighty God” to Joseph Smith, the practice of which was a guarantee of exaltation in heaven, for the possibility of admission to statehood. Let’s see now, what is more important, exaltation in heaven or admission to statehood? If the practice of polygamy was of God, the mormons should have fought to the death to retain the practice. Not worth it, eh? They instead opted to join the Union.

I definitely see that side of it as well. In capitulating, they admitted that their “prophet” was a fraud. But they also stopped the barbaric, misogynistic practices and gave up their theocracy, which was good for everyone.

 

[majick275]

Whyme is right. Facts are hard to come by when religion is being debated. Everyone here will say that I am a naive mormon, yet I think all of you are naive to my religion. I also belive you are naive to your church. Paul were you LDS? If so how come you stated that we vote in positions in the church when we don’t? And Majick, you do not have experience because seniority is not what determines it either.

i wasn’t talking about counselors but the president who has since BY always been the senior apostle. the seniormost apostle not in the FP is always the president of the 12. my experience in mormonism is vast.

The recent apostles that were called into the first presidency of the church were among the youngest apostles.

just counselors. TM was seniormost and BK is next. (pres. of q of 12)

Joseph Smith had his first vision when he was 14.

depending on which of teh many contradictory versions of this you choose to beleive

He was persecuted long before there were even converts to the church.

prosecuted yes , persecuted? i think not.

He was a prohpet of God and thats why people followed him.

no they had weak minds and were fooled by him no different than the followers of jim jones or david koresh.

They had their free agency to join or leave the church, and many chose to follow him and left their homes under great persecution themselves. He could not “command” any girl to bed with him.

yet he did and on more than one occasion. we have how words in his own hand on this.

You are so full of ****. I know there are false stories many of you have read.

you know the stories you just don’t want to admit truth because of the implications.

Yes we have seen how people will follow charismatic leaders no matter what they are teaching, but I doubt Joseph Smith with a 3rd grade education at age 14 was very charismatic.

well he wasn’t starting a church then either. that didn’t happen until much later. he had the help of cowdery and then rigdon. he had the whitmers and harris’s money. I think his education was better than you realize.

If I sound like a return missionary than I am proud of it. As a missionary your life is studying scriptures, praying to God, and preaching.

it’s salesmanship.

You put yourself in such a spiritual position that you cannot be decieved. The spirit confirmed the truth of my religion to me 10 times stronger because I was a missionary.

yet you are. many slaves of allah think like you. are they nor deceived?

You don’t think i’ve heard what many people claim to have happened in mormon history? That stuff is either misinterpreted, or flat out lied about.

lied about by the LDS church which hides the source materials in the archives and then rewrites the manuals to eliminate what’s not faith promoting. have you ever read older version of LDS scriptures and history? what about lectures on faith? the D&C section claiming polygamy was bad and wasn’t practiced by LDS? what about the seer when it was directed to be subscribed to by the FP? the JoD? why does the BoM still have such racist language? why does it praise people praying directly to Jesus when that is not done in the LDS church? you don’t see the transformation from traditional monotheist to rationalizing henotheist in JS?

The 300 years of persecution of christians before constantine was part of the reason the church fell into apostasy.

then why didn’t the “persecution” of mormons lead to their apostasy? thjis is ridiculous. show me where in early christianity the doctrines and practices changed? we have a record showing otherwise.

I wouldn’t call the council of Nicea very successful since hundreds of factions eventually broke away from the Catholic church once they finally got their religious freedom.

hundreds? lutherans (even though that it isn’t what luther wanted), anglicans (think henry was justified?) that’s about it. after that it was splintering of the apostates all the way to the mormons.

Yes Islamic religions have been around for a long time, not because they were forced into it, but because it is their tradition and way of life.

and how did they get that way of life? ever read a history book? you know about the caliphate? are you familiar with shariah? there is no religious freedom in islamic rule. only by accepting dhimitude and paying the jeziyah in a humiliating manner can one practice the christian or jewish faith.

Hosemonky, it is not very christian to disrespect a people who were ACTUALLY persectuted for their belief. They went to Utah because they did not have a choice. Read your history. They tried staying out east many times, starting a number cities. But ignorant people such as yourself drove them away.

the went to utah because it allowed them to start their own theocracy which is what they tried to do in nauvoo. other mormons seemed to do just fine in missouri, michigan, texas, etc. they were never persecuted for their beliefs they were retaliated against for their ACTIONS! you read hsitory, real history not the made up stuff from the paul dunn’s of the world but the facts. you know like michael quinn tried to publish.

 

[BartBurk]

Calling another religion a fraud is one thing. Actually proving it is quite another. The lds faith has not been proven a fraud and this is why it still exists. But if some people on this forum wish to call the mormon faith a fraud or any faith a fraud that is their business.

But proven it is quite another ball of wax.

What kind of proof would you require to prove Mormonism is a fraud? After over 30 years of being a Mormon it became obvious to me that it was a fraud when I looked into the facts. What facts do you require? And if it is a fraud, do you really want to know?

 

[PaulDupre]

Remember this: Before Mormonism, Joseph Smith was a nothing; a nobody… His prophetic status made him a virtual king. It’s good to be the king!
Paul

Actually, I should have pointed out that Joseph Smith really did have himself anointed as King:

[Joseph’s] clerk William Clayton wrote that during the 11 April 1844 meeting “was prest. Joseph chosen as our Prophet, Priest and King by Hosannas.” - The Mormon Hierarchy: Origins of Power, p.124

Now I always thought that “Prophet, Priest and King” was a title reserved for Jesus alone (as are Hosannas).

Paul

 

[Jerusha]

There is some reason to debate on the relative positions of JS and Jesus among LDS people:

The link doesn’t work, but my search parameters were “Joseph Smith greater than Jesus.”

Here is another:
utlm.org/onlineresources/jesusandjosephsmith.htm

As is typical with LDS doctrines and literature, the evidence can be argued either way. It is clear that Joseph once considered his accomplishmants as superior to those of Jesus.