Anti-Mornonism in the email from Catholic Answers!

[Pa_Pa]

PaPa;

Let me open up a window for you:
**
Catholics DO NOT have ANYTHING in common with LDS!**

We believe in One, Triune God.
You believe in many gods

We believe Jesus to be God Incarnate (as the Son of God)
You believe Jesus to be a brother of Lucifer

We believe that the Canon as assembled by the Church is it.
You believe the BoM and other writings (including that funny “Book of Abraham”) to supplant the Bible

We don’t interpret “rock” to mean “revelation” as you do.

We do not keep rewriting the Bible to change it to be more mainstream like you do the BoM

We do not believe black people to be under the “curse of Cain” like you do.

Understand this, PaPa, mormons ARE NOT like Catholics

Robert

I beg to differ…

We believe in God the Eternal Father, and His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. (1st Article of Faith)

So do you

We believe that through the atonement of Jesus Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. (2nd Article of Faith)

So do you

We want our sons and daughters to be chaste before marriage, and faithful after.

So do you

We believe in helping the poor and the needy

So do you

We are all the children of God.

So do you

We love Jesus Christ.

So do you

We believe that Mary the mother of God is the greatest of all women.

So do you

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

So do you
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

So do you

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

So do you

God bless you Brother

 

[majick275]

I beg to differ…

We believe in God the Eternal Father, and His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. (1st Article of Faith)

So do you

not exactly. while you use the same words they have a VERY different meaning. to us they are one God who has always been God and is the only god anytime, anywhere. the same is not true for you

We believe that through the atonement of Jesus Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. (2nd Article of Faith)

So do you

yet we define those laws and ordinances very differently than you and we even define the atonement differently than you.

We want our sons and daughters to be chaste before marriage, and faithful after.

So do you

sure we do. however you leave yourself open to criticism on the meaning of this in your early church history.

We believe in helping the poor and the needy

So do you

okay but we go about it quite differently and this is so generic as to be applicable to many non-christian religions.

We are all the children of God.

So do you

yes BUT once again we have different meanings. we believe we are CREATIONS of God who become his children by adoption. you believe we are literal offspring of him and his goddess wife(wives)

We love Jesus Christ.

So do you

yet you do not pray to him or worship him directly. we do

We believe that Mary the mother of God is the greatest of all women.

So do you

really? where is that in LDS doctrine? I would say the Temple ceremony puts Eve in that role. in any case you don’t speak to her or recognize her in your services. we do

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

sounds good but it’s not practical. LDS history is full of suppression of “apostates” who this apparently doesn’t apply to. Catholic history is also full of intolerance for other religions. this specific wording obviously can NOT be followed as there are many harmful practices done in the name of worship that none of us want to allow.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

So do you

I challenge this as well. on both sides. LDS defied the US government for years. there are many bad rulers out there as well that none of us wants to be subject to. Catholics certainly don’t see this as a good thing under henry viii nor any other anticatholic monarchs.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

So do you

once again sounds nice but not practical. nobody believes ALL things. most of this is a nice sound bite. obviously that is which is virtuous, lovely etc. is subject to definition and we differ greatly on that.

God bless you Brother

and may he bless you as well.

 

[zerinus]

I beg to differ…

We believe in God the Eternal Father, and His Son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. (1st Article of Faith)

So do you

We believe that through the atonement of Jesus Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel. (2nd Article of Faith)

So do you

We want our sons and daughters to be chaste before marriage, and faithful after.

So do you

We believe in helping the poor and the needy

So do you

We are all the children of God.

So do you

We love Jesus Christ.

So do you

We believe that Mary the mother of God is the greatest of all women.

So do you

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

So do you
12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

So do you

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.

So do you

God bless you Brother

How do you know that he does? I am not so sure that he does. Just because you do, it does not mean that he does!

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Yes, what they have in common is this: the official doctrine of both is that the other is completely apostate.

That may be the position of Catholicism, but not of Mormonism. We believe that all Christian churches have true doctrines, and the Catholic Church has probably more than the rest. But we also believe that they contain many errors. That is as far as “doctrine” is concerned. The more fundamental difference would be that we believe that their priesthood is not valid. More crucially, however, we don’t believe that the Catholic Church is evil, or that its influence in the world has been or is evil, or that those who belong to it will be damned. That is what the Protestants believe. Maybe that is also what the Catholic Church believes about us, I wouldn’t know. But that is not what we believe about them.

We can be friends - in facts cultivating relationships is the first step to winning converts - but theologically it is not possible for us to be united on anything more than the most superficial grounds.

If you call believing in God, or not believing; or believing in Jesus Christ, His atonement, and His resurrection, or not believing in them, “superficial,” then I suppose you would be right. I can understand you wanting to keep your distance from Mormonism though. Mormonism is something that you either have to accept it with all your heart, or reject it outright. You can’t follow a middle ground. That is hard to do. The Book of Mormon itself says it nicely:

1 Nephi 14:

6 Therefore, wo be unto the Gentiles if it so be that they harden their hearts against the Lamb of God.

7 For the time cometh, saith the Lamb of God, that I will work a great and a marvelous work among the children of men; a work which shall be everlasting, either on the one hand or on the other—either to the convincing of them unto peace and life eternal, or unto the deliverance of them to the hardness of their hearts and the blindness of their minds unto their being brought down into captivity, and also into destruction, both temporally and spiritually, according to the captivity of the devil, of which I have spoken.

That is what Mormonism does to people. That is in fact what the Book of Mormon is designed to do. It is designed to sift the chaff from the wheat, or separate the sheep from the goats, preparatory to the Lord’s second coming; and we can see it in action in the lives of many people.

zerinus

 

[Pa_Pa]

sure we do. however you leave yourself open to criticism on the meaning of this in your early church history.

As does yours…a number of early Popes were Polygamists.

BUT once again we have different meanings. we believe we are CREATIONS of God who become his children by adoption. you believe we are literal offspring of him and his goddess wife(wives)

Hebrews 12: 9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

yet you do not pray to him or worship him directly we do

We pray as Christ taught us to do…“Our Father which art in heaven”

Concerning our love for Mary

really? where is that in LDS doctrine?

I
In the Book of Mormon

1 Nephi 11: 13-18
13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?
15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins
16 And he said unto me: Knowest thou the condescension of God?
17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

sounds good but it’s not practical. LDS history is full of suppression of “apostates” who this apparently doesn’t apply to. Catholic history is also full of intolerance for other religions

We only excommunicated them, in the early catholic church they killed them. William Tynsdale (Hope I spelled this right was murdered for translating the Bible into English.

and may he bless you as well.

Thanks

 

[RebeccaJ]

I see no mention of the catholic church. But I do see all churches. Of course, you must understand for mormons there would be no need for a restoration if the creeds were A-okay with god. It does make sense that if god believes the current churches are an abomination, there would be a need for his church to be reestablished.

I see no problem with it at all. In fact, isn’t true that the catholic church more or less feels the same way about other churches. That they have a resemblance of truth but not the complete truth? And I am sure that there are catholics on this board, who feel that aspects of protestantism and mormonism are abominations in the sight of god.

You see, mormons and catholics do have things in common!

Yes whyme, this is what I keep telling you. Momornism is unnecessary. It is based a great and universal apostasy that never occurred.

Using relativism to prove a point only shows how close you have moved to complete disbelief.

 

[Catholic20064]

We only excommunicated them, in the early catholic church they killed them. William Tynsdale (Hope I spelled this right was murdered for translating the Bible into English.
Thanks

If I understand correctly, Tyndale was executed because he condemned Henry VIII’s divorce and remarriage. See the following:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Tyndale

 

[majick275]

As does yours…a number of early Popes were Polygamists.

yet the doctrine of the catholic church never endorsed polygamy. individual sinners practiced in contradiction to the official position of the church.

Hebrews 12: 9
9 Furthermore we have had fathers of our flesh which corrected us, and we gave them reverence: shall we not much rather be in subjection unto the Father of spirits, and live?

you take this way out of context. father is used symbolically for our creator here since out of love for us he adopts us.

We pray as Christ taught us to do…“Our Father which art in heaven”

i’m trying not to laugh here. when has the lord’s prayer EVER been recited in an LDS worship service?

Concerning our love for Mary
I
In the Book of Mormon

1 Nephi 11: 13-18
13 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white.
14 And it came to pass that I saw the heavens open; and an angel came down and stood before me; and he said unto me: Nephi, what beholdest thou?
15 And I said unto him: A virgin, most beautiful and fair above all other virgins
16 And he said unto me: Knowest thou the condescension of God?
17 And I said unto him: I know that he loveth his children; nevertheless, I do not know the meaning of all things.
18 And he said unto me: Behold, the virgin whom thou seest is the mother of the Son of God, after the manner of the flesh.

irrelevant. you claimed greatest of all women. this scripture just mentions that she is the mother of the son of God. interestingly the original wording was the mother of God. after the manner of teh flesh has had some controversial LDS interpretation by LDS prophets and Apostles as well. and I repeat…mormons do not talk to mary nor honor her in their services.

We only excommunicated them, in the early catholic church they killed them. William Tynsdale (Hope I spelled this right was murdered for translating the Bible into English.
Thanks

i disagree. blood atonement was a part of Brigham youngs rule.(castration too) and you might want to read William Law’s last interview to see just how far back that went. You are incorrect on Tynsdale too. that is the protestant myth that the “evil Catholics” didn’t want folks to read the bible so they kept it themselves in latin. truth is heretics mistranslated it on purpose and tried to distribute their own versions. THAT is what the church objected to.

 

[Exalt]

PaPa;

Let me open up a window for you:

Catholics DO NOT have ANYTHING in common with LDS!

Robert

Wrong.

You both are human beings. You both love the family. You both believe in a higher power. You both get angry, tired, sad, happy, and frustrated. You both are prone to disease and illness. You both have *tons *of stuff in common.

 

[why_me]

Yes whyme, this is what I keep telling you. Momornism is unnecessary. It is based a great and universal apostasy that never occurred.

Using relativism to prove a point only shows how close you have moved to complete disbelief.

Well of course, if you were to ask a protestant, he or she may disagree. The point behind protestantism was protest against the catholic church. Why?

Because these ‘reformers’ felt that the catholic church was wrong in its doctrine and use of power. You will have to take it all up with the protestants on this section of the forum. Certainly, protestantism at the time of JS was no fan of catholicism.

 

[RebeccaJ]

And the protestant faiths are also apostate according to the catholic church, I believe.

Where do mormons and catholic agree? On how to conduct one’s life morally. Both caution against masturbation, fornication, and adultery. And both stress the body as a temple for the holy spirit to dwell in. There is much in common on how to do life between the catholic faith and the lds faith.

As a Catholic mentor of mine says, it is a mistake to reduce Catholicism to moralism, and he quotes Fr. Timothy Radcliffe, OP:

*"The Church has nothing to say about morality until our listeners have glimpsed God’s delight in their existence. *People often come to us carrying heavy burdens, with lives not in accord with the Church’s teaching, the fruit of complex histories. We have nothing to say at all until people know that God rejoices in their very existence, which is why they exist at all"

 

[Rbt_Southwell]

PaPa;

Let me open up a window for you:
**
Catholics DO NOT have ANYTHING in common with LDS!**

Here is my original quote, mormon bros, why don’t you address THESE statements about how DIFFERENT Catholic (i.e., Christian) theology is from LDS (i.e., Mormon) theology.

This is the issue.

Not some red herring like:

“You love your families; we love our families.
You play baseball; we play baseball.”

Gimme a break!

Robert

 

[why_me]

As a Catholic mentor of mine says, it is a mistake to reduce Catholicism to moralism, and he quotes Fr. Timothy Radcliffe, OP:

*"The Church has nothing to say about morality until our listeners have glimpsed God’s delight in their existence. *People often come to us carrying heavy burdens, with lives not in accord with the Church’s teaching, the fruit of complex histories. We have nothing to say at all until people know that God rejoices in their very existence, which is why they exist at all"

God may rejoice in our very existence since we are his children. But I cannot say that he is rejoicing in the way people live their lives. The RC church and the lds church are very clear in their attitude: mortal sins need to be avoided and if done, confession is needed. If god does nothing but rejoice in our very existence, why go to confession?

 

[Pa_Pa]

yet the doctrine of the catholic church never endorsed polygamy. individual sinners practiced in contradiction to the official position of the church.

The Pope doing it makes it about as official as it gets, nice try though.

you take this way out of context. father is used symbolically for our creator here since out of love for us he adopts us.

 

[majick275]

The Pope doing it makes it about as official as it gets, nice try though.

please…you sound like an evangelical now. there is lot’s of symbolism and parables, etc. int eh scriptures. you know that.

The "prayer was a model of how to pray, which means we pray "To our Father in Heaven in the Name of Jesus Christ. That would be every prayer EVERY given in our church. Irrelevant.

really? then where in that model does it say to end in the name of jesus christ?

Getting back to last comment…we pray to “Our Father”

that specific prayer is not used in LDS services nor is jesus ever prayed to directly and the holy spirit is only invoked at baptism.

what single scripture has ever commanded someone to pray to Mary.

none but it’s the slothful servant that has to be commanded in all things. the hail mary comes right out of the bible. you made the claim that LDS recognize Mary as greatest of all women. I disagree on the grounds that you don’t speak to her and the temple ceremony puts eve in that role.

Are on what authority did Pope John Paul (which I think was a great man) almost declare Mary co-equal with Christ?

careful with the almost. Joseph Smith made the same claim about himself and that claim has continued on through the years. all catholics believe that Christ saves us and that’s enough. Mormon teaching is that no one will enter the celestial kingdom from this dispensation without the approval of joseph smith.

William Law took part in the murder of Joseph Smith at Carthage Jail. I would not put stock in a murderer’s comments. That is ridicules.

i’d like to see the evidence of that. Law was ousted by Joseph because Law was revealing the seedy dealings of joseph.

Ever read the “Book of Martyrs”

yes. your point?

I am not Protestant.

i know but you are repeating protestant myths.

No evil catholic leaders did it.

so any man in a leadership position must be without sin? you might want ot rethink that in light of LDS history. sinners are sinners regardless of position. the catholic church hasn’t had false doctrine even when sinful men were in high positions. we just had sinful men. that’s a bit different than changing church doctrine to make the sins commandments.

It was illegal to ever own your own Bible for hundreds of years.

no it wasn’t. it was illegal to make your own bible with your own translation.

William Tynsdale was imprisoned; it was when he asked for a coat and something to write with that they killed him.

while I don’t condone killing heretics that is why he was killed (promoting heresy).

 

[RebeccaJ]

Well of course, if you were to ask a protestant, he or she may disagree. The point behind protestantism was protest against the catholic church. Why?

Because these ‘reformers’ felt that the catholic church was wrong in its doctrine and use of power. You will have to take it all up with the protestants on this section of the forum. Certainly, protestantism at the time of JS was no fan of catholicism.

Perhaps in the 16th century. I know a few Protestant converts to Catholicism who claim that if you took Luther’s list of protests, there is nothing left to protest against.

I haven’t done this, so I don’t know if this is really the case.

At any rate whyme, this is a Protestant POV that was adopted by mormonism. Perhaps as the Catholic you claim to be, you should investigate and learn the Catholic POV?

 

[RebeccaJ]

If god does nothing but rejoice in our very existence, why go to confession?

God rejoices in your existence why me. He calls to you with His Love. How do you respond? By grudgingly believing that confession is a burden placed on you by a God who does not love you? Or, is it a response to God’s Love? A desire to be with Him?

 

[RebeccaJ]

I see no mention of the catholic church. But I do see all churches. Of course, you must understand for mormons there would be no need for a restoration if the creeds were A-okay with god. It does make sense that if god believes the current churches are an abomination, there would be a need for his church to be reestablished.

I see no problem with it at all. In fact, isn’t true that the catholic church more or less feels the same way about other churches. That they have a resemblance of truth but not the complete truth? And I am sure that there are catholics on this board, who feel that aspects of protestantism and mormonism are abominations in the sight of god.

You see, mormons and catholics do have things in common!

whyme, just because the scripture doesn’t give you the words “Catholic Church” does not mean that you are blind, does it?

Who baptizes infants?

As a Catholic, every Mass you recite the Nicene Creed. That mormon scripture is telling you this Creed, that you recite, is an abomination to God. Do you agree with this?

 

[majick275]

Perhaps in the 16th century. I know a few Protestant converts to Catholicism who claim that if you took Luther’s list of protests, there is nothing left to protest against.

I haven’t done this, so I don’t know if this is really the case.

At any rate whyme, this is a Protestant POV that was adopted by mormonism. Perhaps as the Catholic you claim to be, you should investigate and learn the Catholic POV?

whyme is a Mormon. you can find her on the mormon apologetics board with her icon of Joseph Smith by her screen name calling other mormons to come here and preach. you can also see on this forum where she has borne her testimony of the BoM. she may have been catholic at one time but is very LDS now.

 

[Pa_Pa]

no it doesn’t. if the pope sins it’s a sin. the pope didn’t say polygamy is okay or recommended.

This is the point that people make against JS. Where in scripture is polygamy ever condemned? Excepting a Bishop be the husband to only one wife.

please…you sound like an evangelical now. there is lot’s of symbolism and parables, etc. int eh scriptures. you know that.

Yes there is especially in Revelation (nothing but) yet many take the “Hell fire” literally. BTW not everything EV’s say is wrong, that is just basis .really?

then where in that model does it say to end in the name of Jesus Christ?

Eph. 5: 20
20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

that specific prayer is not used in LDS services nor is Jesus ever prayed to directly and the holy spirit is only invoked at baptism.

See scripture just listed.

none but it’s the slothful servant that has to be commanded in all things. the hail Mary comes right out of the bible. you made the claim that LDS recognize Mary as greatest of all women. I disagree on the grounds that you don’t speak to her and the temple ceremony puts eve in that role.

Adam and Eve because they represent all of their descendants.

careful with the almost. Joseph Smith made the same claim about himself and that claim has continued on through the years. all Catholics believe that Christ saves us and that’s enough. Mormon teaching is that no one will enter the celestial kingdom from this dispensation without the approval of Joseph smith.

Any prophet…Peter, Paul, John. If we reject their teaching we reject Christ.

Matthew 16: 19
19 And I will give unto thee the keys of the kingdom of heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven: and whatsoever thou shalt loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven. Peter whom you believe to be the first Pope, holds the keys to heaven, and Christ has committed all judgment to the twelve.
Luke 22: 30
30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

i’d like to see the evidence of that. Law was ousted by Joseph because Law was revealing the seedy dealings of joseph.
yes. your point?

Well because no one was ever prosecuted for the crime, we only have eyewitness John Taylor and Willard Richards…“In the mouth of two witnesses will all truth be established”

I know but you are repeating protestant myths.

Where does any church receive the authority to kill someone for something as subjective as heresy.

so any man in a leadership position must be without sin?

Sin no. Not murder yes!

no it wasn’t. it was illegal to make your own bible with your own translation.

Illegal to whom. The church is a ecclesiastical origination, not a political one.