Anti-Orthodox????

[Alexius]

I am not sure I expressed myself well in one respect. It is not the Papacy, exactly, that most Protestants object to, though they may think they do. It is the Magisterium, or teaching authority, which is represented by the Papacy, to which most object; the authority to tell me that X is true and Y is not.

That’s very different from Orthodoxy, which really does object to the Papacy itself, but which very much maintains that the Church (by which they mean Orthodoxy) has the authority to teach.

Not all Protestants believe in “sola scriptura”, but all hold it to some degree. In other words, the “teacher” is the Bible alone. Since the Bible is manifestly subject to interpretation, each man is, then, his own “Pope” in a real, if not acknowledged, sense. Not all Protestants hold it in the same way, it’s more of a continuum. But all share it to some degree or they would not be Protestants at all.

Now, some Protestants might perceive Orthodoxy as less authoritarian than the RCC. In some ways it is, as with divorce and birth control. But in some ways it is greatly more so. If the EO who post in here are in any way representative, their doctrinal “lines in the sand” rival the Grand Canyon. Those Protestants who, in the sense of doctrine or belief hold their notion of “freedom of conscience” sacred, would be severely taken aback to learn how little leeway there is in the beliefs of the various Orthodox faiths.

I’m not trying to start a generalized fight here with either Orthodox or Protestants. I’m simply observing that the degree to which committed Protestants do not attack Orthodoxy likely bears a direct relationship to how little they know about it.

Exactly Brings back memories of being Protestant…

 

[paarsurrey]

Ever wonder why there is so much attack on the Catholic Church but i never hear of an attack on the Orthodox Church. Why is that? That is as close to Catholicism as you can get yet you never hear about that. They pray the Rosary and believe in the intercession of saints, the real presence, etc. These are many things that some anti-Catholic protestants bash about the Catholic faith. Why isn’t the same thing done to the Orthodox Church. Not once have i ever heard a preacher have anti-Orthodox remarks but i hear alot of Anti-Catholic remarks. Anyone know why?

Hi

I am an Ahmadi a peaceful Muslim. I thing denominations of all Revealed Religions should adopt a softening and charitable attitude to the fellow religionists if the believe in peaceful dialogue or they believe that truth would prevail in a free will secular society. Hate speaches are counter productive and make a very ugly picture in the minds of opponants.

At least I won’t like hate speaches made by the Protestants agaisnt the Catholics or Orthodoxes and the vice versa. Let the humanity come out of confusions and let them search for truth through peaceful enquiry.

Thanks

 

[Isa_Almisry]

John MacArthur must be getting tired of all his anti-Catholic sermons because now he has started anti-Orthodox ones.

Bring it on.:knight1: :byzsoc: :byzsoc: :knight1:

Funny he doesn’t recognize himself in his words.

Who is John MacArthur?

 

[Isa_Almisry]

I, an average Catholic, was completely unaware before I read this article.

Don’t feel bad. Your average Protestant doesn’t know (but they have no sense of history), and we Orthodox, as in general are blissfully unaware.

No, the Lutherans by far were not the only ones. The Latins ceased to try to recruit the Orthodox against the Protestants after the Counter-Reformation, and the Protestants became too insular to look East anymore: except the Anglicans, ever trying to gain recognition of their orders etc.

Besides that, the only Protestants in the East were the ones who, having failed to convert the Muslims, turned on the Orthodox. The Latins just concentrated on making more uniates.

 

[Hesychios]

And most of your posts.

There was absolutely no reason to say that RC are uncomfortable with EO’s claim to Apostolic succession. Believe me, we don’t lose sleep over it. It was just a way to introduce the same tired arguements.

Yes, there was baiting by a small handful of people on that forum. But even the legitimate questions about Orthodoxy would be soon reduced to attacks on how the RC “invented” the papacy.

Statement of facts are not attacks.

If you said “Hey. that’s a nice toupee you’ve got there!” and it was true, that would not be an attack, even if I denied that my hair was bought. It might be an unpleasant reality for me, but not an attack. What is the point of telling me it looks good when it does not? I might feel attacked, but perhaps you are doing me a favor by telling me of a problem, perhaps I need to know.

Now if you stated that my toupee looked horrid, and it was not true, then that would be an attack.

The toupees your church has worn since the tenth century have been of varying qualities, some good, some not so good. But when you ask us how it looks to us, or has looked to us in the past, you are sure to get an honest opinion. I won’t lie to you.

Michael

 

[Hesychios]

Hello Petergee,

Oh come on! Are protestants unable to discover anything about the EOCs for themselves unless a Catholic informs them?

I was not referring to that. Of course they can! My parish is full of former Protestants and they got there somehow.

I was trying to state in my own way (not so well, I see) that the continued existence of the Orthodox has a way of undercutting certain strong arguments of the RC.

Therefore it can become necessary, as an RC apologist, to try to manage this concept a bit in the minds of potential Protestant Bible Christian converts. A form of damage control.

IMHO it is protestants who deliberately avoid any mention of the EOCs in their anti-catholic apologetics. Because to do so would draw attention to the fact that there is another very large group of non-Catholic Christians, even larger than protestantism, which has been separated from Catholicism for much longer and yet whose beliefs and practices are, to protestant eyes, virtually indistinguishable from Catholicism with the exception of rejection of papal authority. This would raise the question why protestants have strayed so far in such a relatively short time from what the vast majority of Christians have always believed and practised, and why they have been far more prone to divisions upon divisions than any other branch of Christianity.
The existence of EOCs is one thing which obviously exposes as a lie, the protestant assertion that (a particular denomination of) protestants are the true Christians in the true church and that Catholicism is simply a weird heretical minority cult invented at some time after the Apostles.
Whereas in fact of course 85% of Christians follow Catholic beliefs and practices or something very close to it, whilst protestants are a small minority with comparatively recently invented beliefs and practices.

I don’t disagree with the basic premise of your post at all.

The continued existence of the Orthodox church undermines the Protestant rationale for existing as separated brethren with their novel theologies and their own unrooted traditions.

Michael

 

[Hesychios]

I am not sure I expressed myself well in one respect. It is not the Papacy, exactly, that most Protestants object to, though they may think they do. It is the Magisterium, or teaching authority, which is represented by the Papacy, to which most object; the authority to tell me that X is true and Y is not.

That’s very different from Orthodoxy, which really does object to the Papacy itself, but which very much maintains that the Church (by which they mean Orthodoxy) has the authority to teach.

Not all Protestants believe in “sola scriptura”, but all hold it to some degree. In other words, the “teacher” is the Bible alone. Since the Bible is manifestly subject to interpretation, each man is, then, his own “Pope” in a real, if not acknowledged, sense. Not all Protestants hold it in the same way, it’s more of a continuum. But all share it to some degree or they would not be Protestants at all.

Now, some Protestants might perceive Orthodoxy as less authoritarian than the RCC. In some ways it is, as with divorce and birth control. But in some ways it is greatly more so. If the EO who post in here are in any way representative, their doctrinal “lines in the sand” rival the Grand Canyon. Those Protestants who, in the sense of doctrine or belief hold their notion of “freedom of conscience” sacred, would be severely taken aback to learn how little leeway there is in the beliefs of the various Orthodox faiths.

I’m not trying to start a generalized fight here with either Orthodox or Protestants. I’m simply observing that the degree to which committed Protestants do not attack Orthodoxy likely bears a direct relationship to how little they know about it.

This is a very balanced observation.

 

[puzzleannie]

Ever wonder why there is so much attack on the Catholic Church but i never hear of an attack on the Orthodox Church. Why is that? That is as close to Catholicism as you can get yet you never hear about that. ?

if you have not heard about attacks on the Orthodox Church you are probably unfamiliar with Russian history, the history of formerly Christian lands overtaken by the successive Moslem invations, culminating in centuries long domination by the Ottoman Empire with periodic persecutions, and the sad conflicts between Latin and Eastern Christians in many eastern countries.

 

[zerocrossing]

Since east and west unfortunately weren’t united at the time of the Reformation, the east practically doesn’t exist to them.

Actually, if I recall correctly, Martin Luther appealed to the Orthodox for a blessing on his schism. They did not give it.

 

[zerocrossing]

Ever wonder why there is so much attack on the Catholic Church but i never hear of an attack on the Orthodox Church.

Lots of Orthodox churches were attacked in Kosovo.

That is as close to Catholicism as you can get yet you never hear about that. They pray the Rosary

They use a prayer rope, but not to pray what we call the Rosary. It’s for praying the Jesus Prayer.

 

[lak611]

Bring it on.:knight1: :byzsoc: :byzsoc: :knight1:

Funny he doesn’t recognize himself in his words.

Who is John MacArthur?

You may wish to check out this thread, this one and this one.

Here’s his bio from Wikipedia.

 

[zerocrossing]

One is more likely to hear an Anti-Orthodox statement from Roman Catholics than from Protestants. That has been my experience.

That is so weird. About all I’ve ever heard from American Catholics is how Catholics and Orthodox are so much alike, they are like sister churches. Then I heard from American Orthodox on the question, and they were basically calling down anathemas on Catholics. Then I heard from an Orthodox Christian from Greece, who basically told me all sorts of Jack Chick-like stuff about the Catholic Church. The whole thing took me completely by surprise based on what I’d heard Catholics say about Orthodox. I had no idea that the warm fuzzies were very definitely not reciprocated.

I just find it interesting that you have heard a very different attitude from Catholics than I have. I mean, yeah, in the Balkans and various other borderlands between East/West there’s a lot of tension. But I’ve never really heard it spilling over much into American Catholicism. Unless you’re talking about the Internet. There you can get all sorts of whacky perspectives!

 

[lak611]

That is so weird. About all I’ve ever heard from American Catholics is how Catholics and Orthodox are so much alike, they are like sister churches. Then I heard from American Orthodox on the question, and they were basically calling down anathemas on Catholics. Then I heard from an Orthodox Christian from Greece, who basically told me all sorts of Jack Chick-like stuff about the Catholic Church. The whole thing took me completely by surprise based on what I’d heard Catholics say about Orthodox. I had no idea that the warm fuzzies were very definitely not reciprocated.

I have never heard anything anti-Catholic from Greek and Russian Orthodox people whom I know. I have never heard anything anti-Catholic from Protestants whom I know. The only anti-Catholic statements I have heard were from people handing out Chick tracts at the county fair.

 

[zerocrossing]

I have never heard anything anti-Catholic from Greek and Russian Orthodox people whom I know. I have never heard anything anti-Catholic from Protestants whom I know. The only anti-Catholic statements I have heard were from people handing out Chick tracts at the county fair.

I’ve heard plenty of anti-Catholic stuff from both Orthodox people and Protestants. I lived in Texas at one time, so I heard plenty of Protestant anti-Catholicism.

As for Orthodox anti-Catholicism, maybe I heard it more because I came to Orthodoxy from the Catholic Church (only lasted 4 years as Orthodox). I heard it all mostly AFTER I became Orthodox. Before I became Orthodox, I’d heard a bit of Catholic-bashing online in an Orthodox forum, but never in the flesh. After I became Orthodox, it was like the gloves came off and I started hearing it in the flesh. And it really surprised me because I had nothing against Catholicism and I had never had anything against Orthodoxy. I had always thought that the two churches were trying to reconcile. That’s not what I heard from my Orthodox friends… and they weren’t even Old Calendrists!

But back to the topic of the OP… There’s a lot more anti-Orthodoxy in the world than Americans hear of. Check out the Balkans sometime. Or various bombings attempts of the offices of the Ecumenical Patriarch in Constantinople. It’s definitely happening out there in the real world. Orthodox have suffered big persecutions in Russia, Greece, the Balkans, the Holy Land. You name it.

 

[Woodstock]

Actually, if I recall correctly, Martin Luther appealed to the Orthodox for a blessing on his schism. They did not give it.

How many Protestants are anywhere near the teachings of Martin Luther today? If they can’t get far enough back to emulate their own founder, they surely can’t go farther to someone he appealed to.

 

[ASimpleSinner]

Ever wonder why there is so much attack on the Catholic Church but i never hear of an attack on the Orthodox Church. Why is that? That is as close to Catholicism as you can get yet you never hear about that. They pray the Rosary and believe in the intercession of saints, the real presence, etc. These are many things that some anti-Catholic protestants bash about the Catholic faith. Why isn’t the same thing done to the Orthodox Church. Not once have i ever heard a preacher have anti-Orthodox remarks but i hear alot of Anti-Catholic remarks. Anyone know why?

I think the majority of Fundamentalists, Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, etc, likely can’t tell "them Mary-lovin’, infant-batisin’, priest-confessin’, vestment-wearin’, self-crossin’ types" apart.

If I had to guess, if and when they pass an Orthodox Church named “Saint Whomever” it just registers as “Catholic” to them.

The situation changes slightly when some of them send missionaries to Greece, Russia, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Romania and the like… Some become aware that it is not the same church. Others figure Orthodox are “unsaved” just the same… However, I am happy to report that on more than one occasion folks going over to convert the Orthodox are converted BY the Orthodox.

But again, honestly, I don’t think these folks know there history that well… and if they meet the Orthodox they aren’t really familiar with how or if it is in any way different from being Catholic.

As to why you don’t see as much lit against the Orthodox as the Catholic Church in America (or in English) I would hazard to guess that specifically anti-Orthodox tracts and the like would be a relatively distinct niche market. There are probably about 800K Orthodox in the US versus 60M+ Catholics.

 

[Petergee]

if you have not heard about attacks on the Orthodox Church you are probably unfamiliar with Russian history, the history of formerly Christian lands overtaken by the successive Moslem invations, culminating in centuries long domination by the Ottoman Empire with periodic persecutions, and the sad conflicts between Latin and Eastern Christians in many eastern countries.

Lots of Orthodox churches were attacked in Kosovo.

The OP is talking about attacks by protestants.

 

[Woodstock]

The situation changes slightly when some of them send missionaries to Greece, Russia, Ukraine, Bulgaria, Romania and the like…

The Romanians have a small but flourishing anti-Orthodox Protestant community. About 85% of Romanians are Orthodox, 7.5% Protestant and 5% Catholic. An interesting fact is that headcoverings there are associated with Protestants, not Catholics or Orthodox.

As to why you don’t see as much lit against the Orthodox as the Catholic Church in America (or in English) I would hazard to guess that specifically anti-Orthodox tracts and the like would be a relatively distinct niche market.

That’s a good point! Protestants are predominantly located in western lands and only regularly encounter Orthodoxy when on missions into eastern lands. Protestant communities that have been established in places like Russia and Romania probably have little to nothing* in English *that we would be aware of.

 

[Marina14]

Ever wonder why there is so much attack on the Catholic Church but i never hear of an attack on the Orthodox Church. Why is that? That is as close to Catholicism as you can get yet you never hear about that. They pray the Rosary and believe in the intercession of saints, the real presence, etc. These are many things that some anti-Catholic protestants bash about the Catholic faith. Why isn’t the same thing done to the Orthodox Church. Not once have i ever heard a preacher have anti-Orthodox remarks but i hear alot of Anti-Catholic remarks. Anyone know why?

I’ve seen articles printed in the WatchTower/Awake magazines attacking the Orthodox Churches. It’s not as prevalant as attacks on the Catholic Church however.

 

[zerocrossing]

How many Protestants are anywhere near the teachings of Martin Luther today? If they can’t get far enough back to emulate their own founder, they surely can’t go farther to someone he appealed to.

I wasn’t reading the reference to Protestants in the quote I responded to as time-specific. Of course most Protestants today have little knowledge of even their own history. They tend to see themselves as ahistorical anyway… Not bound by the past but only bound by relationship to God.