Anti-Semitism and Traditional Catholicism

[sw85]

The article was written in 1870 and describes the condition of the Jews in Rome under the Papal state. As such it also includes the matter of the Rome ghetto and the condition there.

OK, but that’s distinct from the question of ghettos. Intentionally belittling and humiliating a group of people is a sign of hatred (though, really, “hatred” isn’t the sin, it’s the belittling and humiliating), but ghettos aren’t. You can have ghettos without humiliation. You can have humiliation without ghettos (i.e., Jim Crow).

The question of how to deal with incompatible minority groups in your midst is largely a prudential one. Obviously Romans hated the Jews, so the solution was more quarantining, not less. Or would your rather they had broken up the Jews’ few asylums and forcibly integrated them into the Roman way of life?

 

[chosen_people]

Will Jewry apologize for the Jews involved in the genocide of 6 million Ukrainians that were starved to death?

It took me a second to get that one because I’m not a big reader of storm front. This is just between you and me, but not only was Stalin not Jewish he was a mass murderer of Jews.

 

[jam070406]

It took me a second to get that one because I’m not a big reader of storm front. This is just between you and me, but not only was Stalin not Jewish he was a mass murderer of Jews.

I have no clue what “storm front” is, but I suspect it is “antisemtic”
Between you and me, I can name people under Stalin that were Jews, that were involved.

 

[chosen_people]

OK, but that’s distinct from the question of ghettos. Intentionally belittling and humiliating a group of people is a sign of hatred (though, really, “hatred” isn’t the sin, it’s the belittling and humiliating), but ghettos aren’t. You can have ghettos without humiliation. You can have humiliation without ghettos (i.e., Jim Crow).

The question of how to deal with incompatible minority groups in your midst is largely a prudential one. Obviously Romans hated the Jews, so the solution was more quarantining, not less. Or would your rather they had broken up the Jews’ few asylums and forcibly integrated them into the Roman way of life?

The Romans didn’t put Jews in ghettos, the Catholic Church did. The Jews didn’t live in ghettos before, so the first step was to steal their property. Needlessly to say, the ghetto in Rome was in the least desirable area, prone to flooding, wildly overcrowded, and locked up at night. Jews leaving the ghetto had to wear special clothing marking them as Jews, making them an easy target. Jews were prevented from engaging in virtually every occupation which determined that they would live in poverty. They were banned from education with others. On Saturday’s (the Jewish Sabbath) they were forced to attend classes on Christianity or to pay a heavy fine. I could go on, but as you stated an opinion that this was not necessarily a bad thing, I think I’ll leave things here.

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

A lot of Bolsheviks were Jews. Lenin was partly Jew, Trotsky the mass murderer was fully Jew and the list goes on. I think this is what jam is referring to.

The Romans didn’t put Jews in ghettos

They did expel them from Rome. One of the few peoples, perhaps the only one, that ever made it that far.

 

[jam070406]

 

[chosen_people]

I have no clue what “storm front” is, but I suspect it is “antisemtic”
Between you and me, I can name people under Stalin that were Jews, that were involved.

First of all, Ukrainians hold a very special place in their role in the Shoah (not in a good way). However, what’s great about the Jews, is that we are the only group of people who can be responsible for all the evils of communism and all the evils of capitalism at the same time, who can be both left wing liberal socialists and right wing conservative neo-cons together, who can control all the money and the banks and the media in the world and at the same time be deemed parasites.

The Jews were the victims of the Czar, they quickly became the victims of communism and they became the victims of the Shoah. If it wasn’t for Israel, they’d still be victims.

 

[chosen_people]

It’s where I read about the six million Ukrainians “that we Jews starved to death” (those were the only types of sites where I could read about this - luckily they manage to escape being controlled by the international Jewish-Zionist controlled media (ironically - you can also read about the international Jewish-Zionist controlled media only on these sites).

 

[chosen_people]

A lot of Bolsheviks were Jews. Lenin was partly Jew, Trotsky the mass murderer was fully Jew and the list goes on. I think this is what jam is referring to.

.

Lenin was not Jewish and the mass murderer Stalin was not Jewish. Stalin killed and persecuted many Jews.

To make things simple, lets blame all the Jews only for the things that I have done

 

[jam070406]

It’s where I read about the six million Ukrainians “that we Jews starved to death” (those were the only types of sites where I could read about this - luckily they manage to escape being controlled by the international Jewish-Zionist controlled media (ironically - you can also read about the international Jewish-Zionist controlled media only on these sites).

ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

 

[Credo_ergo_sum]

Will Jewry apologize for the Jews involved in the genocide of 6 million Ukrainians that were starved to death?

First of all, Ukrainians hold a very special place in their role in the Shoah (not in a good way).

I see a connection.

 

[chosen_people]

Pot meet kettle.

haaretz.com/news/orthodox-jewish-youths-burn-new-testaments-in-or-yehuda-1.246153

While Judaism teaches that it is easier for a Gentile than for a Jew to get into the world to come as they have only follow the seven Noahide commandments, in Judaism a Jew who abandons the eternal covenant between God and the Jewish people and accepts the concept and definition of the god of the Christian, is caught off forever from God and the Jewish people.
After centuries of enduring the cry “convert or die” associated with the forced conversions and mass murder of Jews, many Jews regard any attempt at proselytism as an attempt to destroy the Jewish people. Any attempt to convert a minor child without the consent of the parents is a crime in Israel. Leaving this material in mail boxes by a missionary group in an ultra-Orthodox neighborhood was problematic. That being said, the burning or damaging of the Christian scriptures in Israel is a criminal offense.

For my part, it is precisely because I spent part of my childhood away from Israel and experienced anti-Semitism first hand, that I will not tolerate any intolerance on any level against another person on the basis of their religion. That is why, when an Ultra-Orthodox man spat in the vicinity of an Armenian seminary student studying for the priesthood who was wearing Church robes, and in reaction the Armenian seminary student assaulted the Ultra-Orthodox man, I quashed the assault charges against the Armenian seminary student and emphasized in my decision that the act of spitting by the Ultra-Orthodox man was a punishable criminal offense under Israeli law.

 

[chosen_people]

Well everyone just got a good example of Israeli democracy and free speech.

 

[jam070406]

And now that you have witnessed the attitude, accusations, the guilt trips, the spin, the dodging and coverups of one’s own backyard, one can see the frustration on the part of some Traditional Catholics. And ask… is this really antisemitism? Or a false claim?

 

[Stylites]

Maybe not exactly anti-semitic, but there’s been some uncharitable and un-Gospel-like posts here, unfortunately.

 

[chosen_people]

Well yes and no. The two recurring traditional pre- Vatican II views of the Jew were:

1. the Jews killed and rejected the Christian leader and therefore are meant to be punished and to eternally suffer for their act
2. the Jews are a detrimental anti-Christian force in society

All Papal Bulls and edict against the Jews would seem to fit into one or both of those views.

So any discussion of something like placing the Jews into a ghetto fits within this “traditional” framework and is explained and rationalized not as an act of anti-Semitism but as a necessary fulfillment of those two views.

If we read about “Jewish supremacism” (sic!) or rifle through the 1950"s articles of The Point magazine or delve into “The Plot Against the Church”, these are the two recurring themes.

This is why Vatican II was so revolutionary and why I think every Jew should stand in awe of Pope John XXIII not only because he was a Righteous Gentile responsible for saving many Jewish lives during the Shoah, but also the absolute courage and determination it must have taken to stand against the tide of these two traditionalist views of the Jews. .

 

[jam070406]

Well yes and no. The two recurring traditional pre- Vatican II views of the Jew were:

1. the Jews killed and rejected the Christian leader and therefore are meant to be punished and to eternally suffer for their act
2. the Jews are a detrimental anti-Christian force in society

All Papal Bulls and edict against the Jews would seem to fit into one or both of those views.

So any discussion of something like placing the Jews into a ghetto fits within this “traditional” framework and is explained and rationalized not as an act of anti-Semitism but as a necessary fulfillment of those two views.

If we read about “Jewish supremacism” (sic!) or rifle through the 1950"s articles of The Point magazine or delve into “The Plot Against the Church”, these are the two recurring themes.

This is why Vatican II was so revolutionary and why I think every Jew should stand in awe of Pope John XXIII not only because he was a Righteous Gentile responsible for saving many Jewish lives during the Shoah, but also the absolute courage and determination it must have taken to stand against the tide of these two traditionalist views of the Jews. .

Total nonsense. The Traditional view has always been that Jews were to be left alone and no violence could be commited against them.
But you completely ignore and attempt to cover up any wrong doing against Christians by Jews that led to bad situations.

 

[jam070406]

Yeah, that’s great fellow Catholic. I now know that when anti-Catholics lob claims of institutionalized antisemitism on the part of Holy mother Church you will do nothing but stoke the flames.

 

[chosen_people]

Total nonsense. The Traditional view has always been that Jews were to be left alone and no violence could be commited against them.
But you completely ignore and attempt to cover up any wrong doing against Christians by Jews that led to bad situations.

Okay, I’m not quite sure if your saying that the acts against the Jews were for revenge or the result of Christians defending themselves against the Jews. Let’s take the crusades in which between 1/4 - 1/2 of European Jewry were massacred by Catholic crusaders crying “convert or die”. These murderous pogroms, which repeated themselves in different crusades, were not ordered by the Catholic Church and in many cases the local clergy even made an attempt to protect the Jews. So what caused so many Catholics to murder so many Jews? Was it for revenge because the Jews killed Jesus, or poisoned wells or caused the black plague or used the blood of murdered Christian children in their rituals and in making Matzah or was it an act of self-defense perhaps, because the defenseless men, women and children were a physical threat to the Crusaders passing through Europe on their way to replace the current occupiers with their occupation of the Jewish homeland? What had the Jews done that justifies and explains their mass murder?

Then we can go to Spain. Ferdinand Martinez, March 15th 1391 Barcelona - another series of murderous pogroms with the cry of “convert or die”, once again thousands of Jews killed. Then when thousands of Jews subsequently do convert, the conversions are deemed to be insincere and the groundwork is laid for the Spanish Inquisition. Once again the Jews fault - presumably they had to murdered for siding with the Moors and then they had to be murdered for becoming Christians.

And are the blood libels and the desecration of the Eucharist and the poisoning of wells and the causing the Black plague actual valid reasons for the murder of Jews? I’m afraid I’ll be accused of having an agenda but I have a personal stake because an ancestor of mine, a Rabbi, an historic Jewish martyr, was murdered by Christians in a most painful fashion when he refused to convert.

 

[jam070406]

That’s all well and good. But it’s not those indifferent types that hurl accusations of antisemitism. They don’t have an agenda or are rational enough, intellectually honest enough to know real hatred of a group as opposed to fabricated hatred to serve an agenda. I was not referring to ALL Jews but those like we’ve seen on display here.