Anti-Semitism and Traditional Catholicism

[jam070406]

Okay, I’m not quite sure if your saying that the acts against the Jews were for revenge or the result of Christians defending themselves against the Jews. Let’s take the crusades in which between 1/4 - 1/2 of European Jewry were massacred by Catholic crusaders crying “convert or die”. These murderous pogroms, which repeated themselves in different crusades, were not ordered by the Catholic Church and in many cases the local clergy even made an attempt to protect the Jews. So what caused so many Catholics to murder so many Jews? Was it for revenge because the Jews killed Jesus, or poisoned wells or caused the black plague or used the blood of murdered Christian children in their rituals and in making Matzah or was it an act of self-defense perhaps, because the defenseless men, women and children were a physical threat to the Crusaders passing through Europe on their way to replace the current occupiers with their occupation of the Jewish homeland? What had the Jews done that justifies and explains their mass murder?

Then we can go to Spain. Ferdinand Martinez, March 15th Barcelona - another series of murderous pogroms with the cry of “convert or die”, once again thousands of Jews killed. Then when thousands of Jews subsequently do convert, the conversions are deemed to be insincere and the groundwork is laid for the Spanish Inquisition. Once again the Jews fault - presumably they had to murdered for siding with the Moors and then they had to be murdered for becoming Christians.

And are the blood libels and the desecration of the Eucharist and the poisoning of wells and the causing the Black plague actual valid reasons for the murder of Jews? I’m afraid I’ll be accused of having an agenda but I have a personal stake because an ancestor of mine, a Rabbi, an historic Jewish martyr, was murdered by Christians in a most painful fashion when he refused to convert.

Who said anything was justified? Who said any of those actions were right? I merely pointed out that actions can causes reactions. You’re not willing to admit that Jews could do wrong. Nobody is justifying bad actions. I’m not gonna point out sins of others. I don’t live in an eye for an eye world. You seem to have a heart of revenge that hates the Church.
But you claimed the Church ordered bad things against Jews and now back peddle. The Church attempted to curb violence. The history is not so black and white with Jews as the good guys and Christians as the bad guys.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicut_Judaeis

 

[chosen_people]

Who said anything was justified? Who said any of those actions were right? I merely pointed out that actions can causes reactions. You’re not willing to admit that Jews could do wrong. Nobody is justifying bad actions. I’m not gonna point out sins of others. I don’t live in an eye for an eye world. You seem to have a heart of revenge that hates the Church.
But you claimed the Church ordered bad things against Jews and now back peddle. The Church attempted to curb violence. The history is not so black and white with Jews as the good guys and Christians as the bad guys.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sicut_Judaeis

On the contrary, I stand in admiration for the reformation of the Catholic Church through Vatican II and the changed attitudes toward the Jews. I stand in awe of the Righteous Gentiles who risked their lives to save Jews during the Shoah. Jews follow Torah which commands them neither to to hate or take revenge (see Leviticus 19). It is precisely because I believe in dialog and improved relations that I am here. However, everything is contingent on Vatican II and the changed attitudes that it represents.

 

[Contarini]

Total nonsense. The Traditional view has always been that Jews were to be left alone and no violence could be commited against them.

It’s not total nonsense. You’re both partly right. The traditional view was that Jews were to be punished, but not by being killed or forcibly converted–rather by being kept out of positions of power and never allowed to forget their subjugated status. Pretty much the same thing as the Islamic concept of “dhimmitude.” This came under pressure in the later Middle Ages with things like the blood libels, but that kind of harsher anti-Judaism came more from “below” than “above” (which in its own way is also extremely disturbing).

But you completely ignore and attempt to cover up any wrong doing against Christians by Jews that led to bad situations.

Well, how about you list some of these?

No dispute that Jews are also sinful and have committed violence and injustice on occasion. Back when they had some power, in the pagan Roman Empire, they seem to have taken part fairly often in the persecution of Christians (our accounts come from Christians, unlike later accounts of Christian persecution for which we have sources on both sides–but it seems pretty well established that Jews did encourage the persecution of Christians and did commit mob violence against them on occasion).

But for most of Christian history Christians have been the ones with the power. The most despicable part of the Christian legacy, in my opinion, has been the persistent attempt to portray the Jews as oppressors when in fact they were a highly vulnerable minority.

Edwin

 

[russ_rentler]

This thread is pure trolling.

Here’s the Truth:

The Messiah has come and He has conquered the World. Even devils are compelled under His name. Christianity has changed everything. He has influenced everyone, whether they know it or not. We’re just living in the aftershock. Remove Christianity from the world and you would set civilisation back a thousands years.

Watch, now, as paganism returns, as we spurn Christ, and with it comes all the old evils. Look the the clever idiots meddling with sorcery, for example.

Judaism makes a lot of noise for its size but the Catholic Church, as a body, has nothing to apologise for. Judaism is a competing religion, for goodness sake! In the end, we must go our own Way. We can invite others to follow, but if they won’t, walk on.

The time for creepy ‘dialoguing’ is over.

Can I ask what creepy dialoguing means?

We are asked by the Church to foster mutual understanding and respect for the Children of Abraham. Pope Paul said in Nostra Aetate:

"As Holy Scripture testifies, Jerusalem did not recognize the time of her visitation,(9) nor did the Jews in large number, accept the Gospel; indeed not a few opposed its spreading.(10) Nevertheless, God holds the Jews most dear for the sake of their Fathers; He does not repent of the gifts He makes or of the calls He issues-such is the witness of the Apostle.(11) In company with the Prophets and the same Apostle, the Church awaits that day, known to God alone, on which all peoples will address the Lord in a single voice and “serve him shoulder to shoulder” (Soph. 3:9).(12)

Since the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews is thus so great, this sacred synod wants to foster and recommend that mutual understanding and respect which is the fruit, above all, of biblical and theological studies as well as of fraternal dialogues.

True, the Jewish authorities and those who followed their lead pressed for the death of Christ;(13) still, what happened in His passion cannot be charged against all the Jews, without distinction, then alive, nor against the Jews of today. Although the Church is the new people of God, the Jews should not be presented as rejected or accursed by God, as if this followed from the Holy Scriptures. All should see to it, then, that in catechetical work or in the preaching of the word of God they do not teach anything that does not conform to the truth of the Gospel and the spirit of Christ.

Furthermore, in her rejection of every persecution against any man, the Church, mindful of the patrimony she shares with the Jews and moved not by political reasons but by the Gospel’s spiritual love, decries hatred, persecutions, displays of anti-Semitism, directed against Jews at any time and by anyone."

 

[Cloisterella]

I have been finding that some, not all, traditional Catholics seem to have negative views of Israel, the Jewish people, zionism etc. Some go so far as to downplay the holocaust and deny that gas chambers were ever employed against the Jews.
With anything else, there is a wide spectrum of traditional Catholicism from those who enjoy the TLM and the devotions of traditional Catholicism all the way to those in actual schism with the Church. I am perplexed that those who seem most devout do not seem moved by Pope Paul’s comments in Nostra Aetate.
How prevalent is anti-semitism in traditional Catholicism? Do I have a legitimate reason to be concerned? Has anyone else come across this? Thanks so much

Russ,
Check out this document regarding anti-semitism in traditional Catholicism:

jsantisemitism.org/pdf/jsa_1-2.pdf

Go to: Traditional Catholicism and the
Teachings of Bishop Richard Williamson . . . . . J. Christopher Pryor Pg. 233

It sounds like the author experienced what you are talking about first hand, pretty scary!

 

[russ_rentler]

I have been finding that some, not all, traditional Catholics seem to have negative views of Israel, the Jewish people, zionism etc. Some go so far as to downplay the holocaust and deny that gas chambers were ever employed against the Jews.
With anything else, there is a wide spectrum of traditional Catholicism from those who enjoy the TLM and the devotions of traditional Catholicism all the way to those in actual schism with the Church. I am perplexed that those who seem most devout do not seem moved by Pope Paul’s comments in Nostra Aetate.
How prevalent is anti-semitism in traditional Catholicism? Do I have a legitimate reason to be concerned? Has anyone else come across this? Thanks so much

This is what our Holy Father Pope Benedict said in his address to The Grand Rabbinate in Jerusalem in 2009.

“Trust is undeniably an essential element of effective dialogue. Today I have the opportunity to repeat that the Catholic Church is irrevocably committed to the path chosen at the Second Vatican Council for a genuine and lasting reconciliation between Christians and Jews. As the Declaration Nostra Aetate makes clear, the Church continues to value the spiritual patrimony common to Christians and Jews and desires an ever deeper mutual understanding and respect through biblical and theological studies as well as fraternal dialogues. May the seven Bilateral Commission meetings which have already taken place between the Holy See and the Chief Rabbinate stand as evidence! I am thus grateful for your reciprocal assurance that the relationship between the Catholic Church and the Chief Rabbinate will continue to grow in respect and understanding in the future.”

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Can I ask what creepy dialoguing means?

I will tell you. It means talking to people who have no intention whatsoever of converting but who anticipatate and expect that the Church will change Her disciplies and doctrines to suit them.

There’s was a trend about 10 years ago, in the mass media, of apologising for everything. Marketers twigged that this was a good PR stunt. I think it’s time to stop.

 

[mab23]

Like I often say; I wouldn’t let the actions of a couple misguided folks paint the picture of a whole movement.

THIS!