Anxiety will send me to hell!?!?!

[Ben_Sinner]

so I came across a site…chastitysf.com/depanx.htm

and it said something that has really freaked me out! I suffer from anxiety on a constant basis and now the website says this…

***Psychologically, locating and treating the unconscious final cause of the symptoms can be the most critical aspect of the treatment because it can have a curative effect on the other causes as well. Treating only the material cause, however—as if it were the rational and only cause—will leave the final cause untreated and free to continue exerting its harmful influence. In regard to depression and anxiety, the psychological treatment usually centers around unconscious feelings of anger and guilt and victimization.

From a Christian perspective, the root of anxiety is a lack of trust in God’s providence, such that, when facing the unknown, you worry endlessly about how to “figure it out” on your own. The root of depression is a lack of trust in God’s justice, such that when encountering any hurt or insult you fall into a desire to take matters into your own hands to get revenge, but, feeling helpless to overpower others, you turn your anger onto yourself as unconscious self-blame.

This means, therefore, that some persons cling with unconscious determination to a childlike desire to make their parents admit their mistakes. These persons use their own disability as evidence of their parents’ failures—evidence to be thrown back into their parents’ faces—and, in so doing, they effectively reject divine love for the savor of revenge.

“What?” you ask. “Revenge? That’s ridiculous. I don’t want revenge. I’m past that.”

Well, no one is “past” the capacity for self-deception, and only when you can be honest about your entanglement in the unconscious can you extricate yourself from it. So, if you truly were past revenge, you would do anything it takes—pay any price and overcome any fear—to be healed, and then you would turn to your parents and, as a gift of true love, offer to them your healing, as evidence that, despite all their mistakes, they really didn’t cripple you after all. But by continuing in your self-sabotaging behavior you show that you would prefer to send yourself to hell just to prove to someone how much he has hurt you. It’s simply impossible to open yourself to God’s healing grace until you let go of the secret hope that your own self-destruction will bring you the sweet satisfaction of . . . well, revenge.* **

seriously!!! I can’t help what my subconcious does!

 

[yunat]

seriously!!! I can’t help what my subconcious does!

Who declared that the author of that rambling diatribe is an authority with regards to salvation in your Catholic Church?

The answer is obviously ‘he isn’t an authority of any kind’, so why listen to his/her opinion on the matter?

Whenever someone tells me they have anxiety issues, I always encourage them to go and see their Doctor.

Best of luck to you.

 

[1ke]

Please see your PRIEST and a qualified mental health professional for your issues.

Stay away from this website.

Any nut job can put up a website, and you cannot self-diagnose by reading a webpage, nor would any reputable psychologist attempt to “help” people with mental health issues in such a manner.

Again: Stay away from this website.

 

[Ben_Sinner]

Please see your PRIEST and a qualified mental health professional for your issues.

Stay away from this website.

Any nut job can put up a website, and you cannot self-diagnose by reading a webpage, nor would any reputable psychologist attempt to “help” people with mental health issues in such a manner.

Again: Stay away from this website.

Yah, I started to feel a little better after I found this statement from the website

***AS MUCH as some sort of official approval of my work would be desirable, neither an Imprimatur (“Let it be printed”) nor a Nihil Obstat (“Nothing [herein] stands in the way [of the faith]”) can apply to a website because a website, unlike a printed book, can be changed at any moment. Therefore, no official approval for a website would have any meaningful value because there can be no guarantee that what someone has once approved is the same thing as what an individual might be currently reading. What is approved in one moment could be completely altered in the next moment.

Still, if anyone can find a bishop who has the requisite knowledge to understand the psychological depth of my work, who would be willing to read everything (!) on this website, and who would be willing to write a general statement of appreciation of my work, please tell him to send me a note!

I, for my part, knowing the Church as well as I do, will not hold my breath waiting for a bishop to demonstrate such kindness. In fact, only after I stop breathing completely will there be any hope of my work getting examined, approved, and printed.* **

 

[1ke]

Psychological depth indeed. The depth of a puddle.

If you want to read works by an actual Catholic psychologist, read Fr. Benedict Groeschel.

 

[Cat_Herder]

A sin must be deliberate and willed with full consent.

[BIBLEDRB]Hebrews 10:26-29[/BIBLEDRB]

A person laboring under an anxiety disorder can easily be fooled into thinking that everything they do is a mortal sin because they think the anxiety means they consented. This is called scrupulosity, and it is a problem that many saints and doctors of the Church, such as St. Therese of Liseux have had. And obviously it didn’t stop them from going to heaven!

You really should check out Scrupulous Anonymous, which is run by the Ligouri Mission.

 

[billcu1]

Psychological depth indeed. The depth of a puddle.

If you want to read works by an actual Catholic psychologist, read Fr. Benedict Groeschel.

Fr. Benedict! Yes yes! EWTN.

Bill

 

[bzkoss236]

Also he’s somewhat wrong in what he says. He claims that anxiety has the root cause of lack of trust in God. By this he means all anxiety. This is false. Severe anxiety is caused by chemical imbalances in the brain or some kind of mental disorder such as OCD, ADD, schizophrenia, etc. This can turn things which are only a slight worry into “The world is ending” anxiety.

He has no authority over the Church.

 

[guanophore]

so I came across a site.....[chastitysf.com/depanx.htm](http://www.chastitysf.com/depanx.htm)

and it said something that has really freaked me out! I suffer from anxiety on a constant basis and now the website says this…

***Psychologically, locating and treating the unconscious final cause of the symptoms can be the most critical aspect of the treatment because it can have a curative effect on the other causes as well. Treating only the material cause, however—as if it were the rational and only cause—will leave the final cause untreated and free to continue exerting its harmful influence. In regard to depression and anxiety, the psychological treatment usually centers around unconscious feelings of anger and guilt and victimization.

From a Christian perspective, the root of anxiety is a lack of trust in God’s providence, such that, when facing the unknown, you worry endlessly about how to “figure it out” on your own. The root of depression is a lack of trust in God’s justice, such that when encountering any hurt or insult you fall into a desire to take matters into your own hands to get revenge, but, feeling helpless to overpower others, you turn your anger onto yourself as unconscious self-blame.***

This means, therefore, that some persons cling with unconscious determination to a childlike desire to make their parents admit their mistakes. These persons use their own disability as evidence of their parents’ failures—evidence to be thrown back into their parents’ faces—and, in so doing, they effectively reject divine love for the savor of revenge.

“What?” you ask. “Revenge? That’s ridiculous. I don’t want revenge. I’m past that.”

Well, no one is “past” the capacity for self-deception, and only when you can be honest about your entanglement in the unconscious can you extricate yourself from it. So, if you truly were past revenge, you would do anything it takes—pay any price and overcome any fear—to be healed, and then you would turn to your parents and, as a gift of true love, offer to them your healing, as evidence that, despite all their mistakes, they really didn’t cripple you after all. But by continuing in your self-sabotaging behavior you show that you would prefer to send yourself to hell just to prove to someone how much he has hurt you. It’s simply impossible to open yourself to God’s healing grace until you let go of the secret hope that your own self-destruction will bring you the sweet satisfaction of . . . well, revenge.

seriously!!! I can’t help what my subconcious does!

This is only one psychological perspective among many. The above statement has some Christianity interspersed with modern psychological thought that would be foreign to the Apostles.

You are right, we cannot help what our unconscious does, but we are responsible to deal with the effects of it, and it is true that we will heal much faster if we are aware of what is in there and relate to it, rather than ignore it.

The “send yourself to hell” part relates to the resentment, revenge and lack of forgiveness. Forgiveness is a very conscious act that traumatized people need to work at every day.When you consciously and repeatedly forgive those who have hurt you, it is a preservative against resentment, which is poisonous to the soul.

No, your anxiety wil not send you to hell, but your resentment and unforgiveness will.

Anxiety is a sign that your sould is ready to deal with something deep inside that has been repressed. It is a harbinger of healing that is imminent.

 

[Iheartcoffee]

Anxiety can be a medical condition due to an imbalance of certain neurochemicals. Many very holy people with nothing but the greatest trust in God still can suffer from anxiety and/or depression. There is nothing wrong with seeking medical treatment, counseling, etc. for mental health concerns. As a person with a neuroscience background, I believe wholeheartedly that God gave our world the field of neurobiology so that we can help those in need and begin to remove the stigma associated with mental health issues.

 

[Lochias]

I’ve read this particular thing before…helped me out quite a bit, actually…and I never got the idea that simply being anxious = choosing hell.

 

[guanophore]

Who declared that the author of that rambling diatribe is an authority with regards to salvation in your Catholic Church?

The answer is obviously ‘he isn’t an authority of any kind’, so why listen to his/her opinion on the matter?

Whenever someone tells me they have anxiety issues, I always encourage them to go and see their Doctor.

Best of luck to you.

Well he is a Dr. and he is licensed, so it seems that he certainly can be authoratative in his field of psychology, and if he wants to talk about his area of expertise from a Christian perspective, it seems that he might have many things of value to offer.

Please see your PRIEST and a qualified mental health professional for your issues.

Stay away from this website.

Any nut job can put up a website, and you cannot self-diagnose by reading a webpage, nor would any reputable psychologist attempt to “help” people with mental health issues in such a manner.

Again: Stay away from this website.

In the past it was true that psychologists did not use electronic media to help people, but that is not the case anymore. There are now therapists doing work using many forms of media such as skype and interactive websites. I don’t know if you looked at the site, but the person who designed it is not attempting to offer individual clinical services. There is information available for people who want his perspective. There is nothing “nut job” about that.

Yah, I started to feel a little better after I found this statement from the website

***AS MUCH as some sort of official approval of my work would be desirable, neither an Imprimatur (“Let it be printed”) nor a Nihil Obstat (“Nothing [herein] stands in the way [of the faith]”) can apply to a website because a website, unlike a printed book, can be changed at any moment. Therefore, no official approval for a website would have any meaningful value because there can be no guarantee that what someone has once approved is the same thing as what an individual might be currently reading. What is approved in one moment could be completely altered in the next moment.

Still, if anyone can find a bishop who has the requisite knowledge to understand the psychological depth of my work, who would be willing to read everything (!) on this website, and who would be willing to write a general statement of appreciation of my work, please tell him to send me a note!

I, for my part, knowing the Church as well as I do, will not hold my breath waiting for a bishop to demonstrate such kindness. In fact, only after I stop breathing completely will there be any hope of my work getting examined, approved, and printed.***

This sure sounds like a statement made by a person who has done his research, presumably because that approval was sought and wanted. It also sounds like some frustration that the bishop does not have time to review and approve the website. It has nothing to do with kindness, but the fact that bishops are too busy to review websites for accuracy.

I was also disappointed about the lack of references on the site. The author seems to make brash assertions, but no citations to follow. And yet, there is quite a bit on the site about his own work needs to be referenced…

And to the OP, anxiety IS hell! The more you have, the more hellish daily life, so seeking resolution to it will make you a much happier person.

 

[Marie1234]

Anxiety is a sign that your soul is ready to deal with something deep inside that has been repressed. It is a harbinger of healing that is imminent.

Anxiety is not an indication that you have repressed something bad. Just the idea of that can cause anxiety.

Anxiety can occur in anyone during stressful situations or it can be a disorder caused by hormone imbalances in the body. I suggest seeking a healthcare professional to determine if your anxiety may be something that can be treated medically. Just because one has anxiety does not mean that their soul is troubled or something. A lot of times, it’s the opposite. The anxiety is present not due to spiritual turbulence, but because of a physical, bodily issue.

God Bless!

 

[yunat]

Anxiety is a sign that your sould is ready to deal with something deep inside that has been repressed. It is a harbinger of healing that is imminent.

Not even close, no.

Anxiety sufferers have lower levels of certain neurotransmitters in the brain that directly affect the central nervous system.

SSRI medication and cognitive behavioural therapy are very effective treatments.

 

[mharren]

Wow, I am truly shocked and rocked by this material. I am tempted to suspect that “Raymond Lloyd Richmond, Ph.D.” is dabbling in materials he ought not be. If he holds a philosophical Doctorate of Psychology I am amazed he ever survived the defense of his thesis if it was anything like this. And while everyone is welcomed to offer some degree of counsel on the Faith and the Church I don’t believe anyone should do so professionally unless they are a professional of divinity and/or member of authority within in the Church such as Nun’s or Priests. A Philosophical Doctorate of Theology or something similar could also give ‘expert’ advice, but it would ill advised for them to attempt to speak of Psychology in an expert fashion when they are not Psychologists.

I did my pre-med B.Sc. in Biology and Psychology and while it’s only a Bachelor’s Degree and it was double major, I have sufficient education and training in Psychology to confidently assert that there is no such thing as ‘Catholic Psychotherapy’ and what Dr. Richmond illustrates as constituting ‘Catholic Psychotherapy’ does not fit the criteria to be* any kind* of Psychotherapy.

“In fact, individuals caught up in their unconscious defenses don’t really desire to serve God. Deep in their hearts they use the name of God only as an excuse to serve their own pride. (Raymond)”

There is a difference between a Psychologist and a Psychotherapist (Freudian) thought Psychologists can practice Psychotherapy and are superior academically to Psychotherapists. Dr. Raymond is Psychologist, he’s got a corrupted understanding of Psychotherapy (along with psychological distress and disorder) and if he is Psychotherapist he has mutilated the concept of defense mechanisms though I can see where he may have derived the flawed statement above. He may have looked at the psychoanalytical triad postulated by Freud, the id, ego, an super-ego.

Raymond is basically asserting that the defense mechanisms employed to protect against the chaotic affect that the Id can have translate to not having a true desire to serve God. Well the Id operates on the pleasure principle and it certainly doesn’t want to serve anyone or anything but you by getting you what you want. He’s almost suggesting that people use God as a Freudian ‘Defense Mechanism’ via the Ego.

Raymond is preaching (pardon the pun) psychotherapy and harping on the Id quite a bit in the material on this site but he almost never alludes to the Super-Ego, which is the in-built regulator of the Id, I once had a professor that used the ‘concept’ of ‘the holy spirit’ that resides in Christians as a religious ‘costume’ for the Super-Ego.

Raymond is failing to give human beings an credit for the affects of their own ‘consciences/Super-Ego’s’ and blowing off not only the crucial indications that can be gained from examination of employed defense mechanisms but also blowing them off as being a means to protecting one’s Id.

Cont’d

 

[mharren]

In actuality (as much as any of this stuff an be, keep in mind it’s all abstract and analogous) the Id’s drives may lead to inflammatory offense of the Super-Ego which then causes the Ego to employ defense mechanisms in an attempt to appease and ease the inflammation of the Super-Ego caused by some offending thought or action having arisen from Id that was in conflict with the Super-Ego.

Anxiety is a both a mental and physical manifestation of inflammation or offense of the Super-Ego by something having arisen from the Id and we cope with anxiety via defense mechanisms until the anxiety can be resolved.

Physically clinical anxiety arises from hyperactivity of Hypothalamic-pituatary-adrenal Axis (HPA Axis) which is complex hormonal and neuroedocrine axis in the body where negative feedback mechanisms fail to control the level of arousal in the brain, which leads to increased levels of catacholamines (mostly the adrenaline’s) and the global activating neurotransmitter glutamate, which is actually toxic at high levels. If we were to overly-simplify the brain’s arousal system and confine it to two single neurotransmitters then we could say at Glutamate is your ‘ON’ switch’ and GABA (Gamma-aminobutyric acid) is your 'OFF" switch.

General anesthetics, sedatives, and anti-anxiety medications such as Barbiturates, Propafol, and alprazolam (Xanax) are work on various GABA receptors and by filling the receptors ‘turn off’ the central nervous system to various degrees. Anti-anxiety medications like Alprazolam or Diazepam (Valium), and Lorazepam (Ativan) when provided with a proper dose during an acute attack of anxiety of panic render the patient physically incapable of experiencing anxiety, panic, or agitation of any kind. Thus why they are so effective and we administer them regularly to persons in crisis.

Pathological anxiety is often a direct function of physical failures and a switch from negative feedback in the HPA-Axis or positive (amplifying) feedback. When this occurs queues in the environment present during the acute attacks can become associated through conditioning with the attacks which then become triggers capable of setting of the physical dysfunction on their own.

Pathological anxiety can also arise from internal psychological manifestations of distress that at first cause minor, non-pathological levels of anxiety, but become aggressively amplified over time and the actions, feelings, or thoughts that were associated with the anxiety in the first place (such as a sin, whether committed, thought about, etc) can trigger an acute physical manifestation of anxiety. This would be the kind of pathological anxiety that can become Obsessive-Compulsive in nature.

This Raymond fellow has many flaws in his reasoning and I sincerely hope his ‘work’ is never officiated by anyone with influence. In fact it encourages guilt rather than hope or comfort for a person afflicted with pathological anxiety who is Catholic, particularly because it plays of that persons faith.

If you suffer from anxiety disorders than chances are you know you need to be diagnosed by a physician, preferably a Psychiatrist. Psychologists, Psychoanalysts, and Psychotherapists are not Medical Doctors and thus cannot make medical diagnoses. Clinical Psychologists (Ph.D./D. Psyc/Psy.D.) can make recommendations for diagnosis or can be recruited by an attending physician to make a diagnosis with authority lent to them by the attending physician.

Some form of therapy such as CBT, or really only any kind of ‘talk therapy’ can be extremely valuable, especially during times that the anxiety disorder is particularly active.

For patient’s that can be confidently determined to be suffering from a neuroendocrine dysfunction that cannot be attribute to another disorder or disease (i.e. hyperthyroidism, etc) then a course of SSRI’s, SNRI’s. or Tricyclic Anti-Depressants should be started barring any contraindications or adverse reactions. Perhaps most importantly though, the patient should be provided with an ‘as-required’, ‘rescue’ prescription for an anti-anxiety medication after be counseled about the risks of abuse, addiction, and euphoria.

The most important thing to do with an anxiety patient is to break the cycle of anxiety and suspend it (unfortunately the best and most reliable way to do that is with drugs) long enough for psychotherapy and counseling as well as rehabilitation and establishment of support structure and education of the condition can be achieved, then anti-anxiety meds can drop down to PRN (as-needed) status, and hen with supervision the anti-depressants should be slowly titered down. This is a critical point to determine is the individual suffered from an incidental bout of anxiety disorder, or if they are one of the relatively few patients with permanent or persisting ‘chemical imbalances’, because as the dose is lowered and they patient’s brain eliminates extra receptors induced by the meds, they maybe begin to deteriorate and use their PRN medication more, in which case the dose should be titered back up and the possibility of attempting to titer the patients off the anti-depressants can revisited again in 3-6 months or at the discretion of the attending physician and desire of the patient.

An increase in religious activity and spiritual practices is highly encouraged in treatment, so long as the focus is on healing and connecting with others and with God, and in finding hope and retaining it and not on guilt and self-punishment or self-recrimination. That being said, sometimes punishment is desired and can be healthy, and for a Catholic going to confession and receiving absolution can be particularly helpful.

Oops, totally gave a lecture,

• Mharren

 

[Ben_Sinner]

And for the record my anxiety isn’t about “getting revenge on my mom and dad for bad parenting”, the doctor on this site claims thats the reason for everything

…its because I had a traumatic experience from doctors committing malpractice on a procedure relating to my genital area when I was a little kid…which I guess is a HUGE no-no to happen to a young,developing boy. I have forgiven the doctors but yet have the anxiety and scrupulosity to go with it.

I have been going to therapy for almost 10 years for it. I haven’t repressed anything

 

[guanophore]

Anxiety is not an indication that you have repressed something bad. Just the idea of that can cause anxiety.

It can be, but not necessarily. If you will look at my statement, I never gave the phenomenon a value of good or “bad”. What causes anxiety in many cases, though, is that the ego perceives what is trying to emerge as “bad” and reacts defensively.

Anxiety can occur in anyone during stressful situations or it can be a disorder caused by hormone imbalances in the body. I suggest seeking a healthcare professional to determine if your anxiety may be something that can be treated medically. Just because one has anxiety does not mean that their soul is troubled or something.

Nor does it meant that having a troubled soul is necessarily sinful in some way. As you recall our Blessed Mother and Joseph experienced anxiety.

And Our Lord was troubled in the garden:

John 12:27-28

“Now my soul is troubled. And what should I say — ‘Father, save me from this hour’? No, it is for this reason that I have come to this hour. 28 Father, glorify your name.”

A lot of times, it’s the opposite. The anxiety is present not due to spiritual turbulence, but because of a physical, bodily issue.

God Bless!

The body is not separate from the soul, and often carries that which the soul is trying to express. Anxiety needs to be addressed on physical, mental, emotional, relational and spiritual planes.

Dreams are also a great help in learning the roots of anxiety.

Not even close, no.

Anxiety sufferers have lower levels of certain neurotransmitters in the brain that directly affect the central nervous system.

SSRI medication and cognitive behavioural therapy are very effective treatments.

Yes, of course, but what is happening on an emotional and cognitive level can also produce those physical effects. There is no reason to make the treatment so narrow that any possible factors fail to be addressed.

 

[St_Francis]

I must say that looking at what was quoted from the site, that as a regular untrained person, I would have to disagree on the basis that it is what we will that counts. It sounds like he is saying that the equivalent of temptations are thrown up from the subconscious, but it is what we do with our temptations that counts.

He seems confused…

 

[guanophore]

Psychological depth indeed. The depth of a puddle.

If you want to read works by an actual Catholic psychologist, read Fr. Benedict Groeschel.

LOL that is funny.

I love Fr. Groeschel and listen to him on Immaculate Heart Radio regularly, but he was trained in modern “evidence based” psychology, which has no use whatever for the soul in the study of science. His attitudes about psychology have been very biased by the system in which he was trained. He was taught not to believe in depth psychology at all!

The answer is obviously ‘he isn’t an authority of any kind’, so why listen to his/her opinion on the matter?

He is has a doctoral degree in psychology and is licensed in CA. It seems that he has as much a right to his opinion as the next person,

guidetopsychology.com/eduafl.htm

And for the record my anxiety isn’t about “getting revenge on my mom and dad for bad parenting”, the doctor on this site claims thats the reason for everything

…its because I had a traumatic experience from doctors committing malpractice on a procedure relating to my genital area when I was a little kid…which I guess is a HUGE no-no to happen to a young,developing boy. I have forgiven the doctors but yet have the anxiety and scrupulosity to go with it.

I have been going to therapy for almost 10 years for it. I haven’t repressed anything

I am glad that you are getting professional help with your anxiety, and that you are also seeking spiritual solutions, since both are important. But with all due respect, you can’t reallly know what is repressed because it is UNCONSCIOUS!

I must say that looking at what was quoted from the site, that as a regular untrained person, I would have to disagree on the basis that it is what we will that counts. It sounds like he is saying that the equivalent of temptations are thrown up from the subconscious, but it is what we do with our temptations that counts.

He seems confused…

Temptations are thrown up from the unconscious all the time. It is where our concupiscense lives. I agree with you though, it is what we do with our temptations that counts.