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padreden
Guest
Dear Cestusdei;
What is your interpretation of 1st Thessalonians 4:17?
What is your interpretation of 1st Thessalonians 4:17?
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sandmountainsli
Guest
I am unfamiliar with this “1965 Calvary Chapel”.
Is it very large? Is it a mainline Protestant church?
WP
Is it very large? Is it a mainline Protestant church?
WP
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Harpazo
Guest
It probably wouldn’t be his interpretation, but rather the Church’s interpretation.
In Pax Christi
Andrew
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Pacbox
Guest
Sandmountainsli, Calvary Chapel was started in 1965 by Chuck Smith. Basically, Chuck Smith didn’t agree with doctrine in the church he attended so he went off and started his own. It is anti-Catholic and also anti-non-Catholic Christian as well. Basically, everyone but them is in error. I learned much of this from interactions with a Calvary Chapel minister. Each church is really rather small congregation wise though they seem to exist all over the place and in several countries.
www.calvarychapel.com will give you more info.
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cestusdei
Guest
It refers to the second coming and final judgment. There is no secret rapture or second coming followed by a third coming later. The protestant rapture idea has no basis in traditional Christianity. It is purely a 19th century innovation that is rejected by Catholicism and Orthodoxy. Actually the majority of protestants also reject it.
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sandmountainsli
Guest
They should merge with the C.O.C.
Geez…I hope I didn’t just start a jihad against Methodism
WP
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padreden
Guest
Ah, glad to hear that you believe in the rapture as part of the Second Advent of our Lord. It is the secret element that you (and I) reject. Perhaps there is a bit of a misnomer here in that when people say they don’t believe in the doctrine of the rapture, what they really mean is that they do not believe in a secret rapture. It would probably be helpful if, when discussing this with Protestants, this clarification were made. But the rapture itself is the “seizing up” of the body of Christ to meet our Lord in the air when He comes, as Paul teaches here.
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scylla
Guest
My wife came from Calvary Chapel to Catholicism and I came back to the Church from being away from it. I never really accepted the understanding of Calvary Chapel as it always just never stood right with me, but my wife forced me to go to Calvary Chapel in the hopes that I would eventually embrace it.
It is extremely tempting to attend Calvary Chapel as it feels sooo good. They center their services on a line by line exposition of the Bible by the Pastor according to their theology. It seems right because they go through it thoroughly. It feels good because most people are converts and excited about the Calvary Chapel religion so they are very friendly.
No one seems to realize though that it is still an interpretation.
I have never met an honest convert to Calvary Chapel from Catholicism as they will often state things like scripture brought them to Calvary Chapel or their study of history of the Catholic Church dogmas doctrines etc…
But never, ever an honest examination of dogmas or doctrines of the Catholic Church.
Always they will contradict themselves or change the subject when confronted with errors in their logic, then come out with a Protestant canard such as the inquisition or pedophile priests.
It is difficult to have a logical conversation as once you start to examine their beliefs and they start getting uncomfortable they will change the subject or just end the conversation.
Here is a good question to ask a person from Calvary Chapel.
Where did Calvary Chapel come from? Why did Chuck Smith have to start it and if Calvary Chapel is right then is every other church before them wrong?
If they are not wrong then Calvary Chapel doesn’t need to exist.
Eventually what you will see is that truth doesn’t matter to someone from Calvary Chapel and personal preference is what matters\relationship to God.
If any person from Calvary Chapel disagrees with my presentation feel free to PM me and I will illustrate, as truth is ultimately important and God should be the source of our belief, not a man.
Worship should be centered on God, not a Pastor and Music.
In Christ,
Scylla
Chuck Smith was pretty innovative in putting a nice band up there on stage with the Pastor. I am not sure if he was the first, but it has been pretty effective here in California.
It is extremely tempting to attend Calvary Chapel as it feels sooo good. They center their services on a line by line exposition of the Bible by the Pastor according to their theology. It seems right because they go through it thoroughly. It feels good because most people are converts and excited about the Calvary Chapel religion so they are very friendly.
No one seems to realize though that it is still an interpretation.
I have never met an honest convert to Calvary Chapel from Catholicism as they will often state things like scripture brought them to Calvary Chapel or their study of history of the Catholic Church dogmas doctrines etc…
But never, ever an honest examination of dogmas or doctrines of the Catholic Church.
Always they will contradict themselves or change the subject when confronted with errors in their logic, then come out with a Protestant canard such as the inquisition or pedophile priests.
It is difficult to have a logical conversation as once you start to examine their beliefs and they start getting uncomfortable they will change the subject or just end the conversation.
Here is a good question to ask a person from Calvary Chapel.
Where did Calvary Chapel come from? Why did Chuck Smith have to start it and if Calvary Chapel is right then is every other church before them wrong?
If they are not wrong then Calvary Chapel doesn’t need to exist.
Eventually what you will see is that truth doesn’t matter to someone from Calvary Chapel and personal preference is what matters\relationship to God.
If any person from Calvary Chapel disagrees with my presentation feel free to PM me and I will illustrate, as truth is ultimately important and God should be the source of our belief, not a man.
Worship should be centered on God, not a Pastor and Music.
In Christ,
Scylla
Chuck Smith was pretty innovative in putting a nice band up there on stage with the Pastor. I am not sure if he was the first, but it has been pretty effective here in California.
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Harpazo
Guest
Very beautifully said. I agree wholeheartedly with you. Truth is what brought me to Catholicism.
In Pax Christi
Andrew
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cestusdei
Guest
I think you misunderstand. I don’t believe in the rapture. I believe in the second coming. The concept of “rapture” is a protestant one that is tied to fundamentalism. We don’t even use the term in Catholicism.
Actually in one NT reference the taking up of people is likened to the flood in Noah’s time. The ones “raptured” are the ones who are lost! It is better to stick with traditional language and concepts as found in the catechism and the Bible itself.
M
Mark_LePard
Guest
I am not a convert from Catholicism but from a liberal Lutheran denomination to a Biblical Christianity. I happen to attend a Calvary Chapel in Lake Elsinore, Clifornia. I have taught classes at Calvary Chapel Bible College, and pastored a Spanish language church in Murrieta, California. I am currently teaching at different churches, mostly Calvary Chapels. Pastor Chuck Smith was my bosses boss when I was employed at Calvary’s Conference center in Murrieta. I do not pretend to speak for the whole Calvary movement, and certainly not for Chuck Smith, but perhaps I can answer some questions, as time permits me to do so.
There seems to be some misinformation on this page.
I know Calvaryites and Catholics who are depending on their baptism to save them. They think their works have bought them a place in heaven. Unfortunately for them, God can not be indebted to anyone. So if you think God owes you, think again.
Any questions? Please be civilized.
There seems to be some misinformation on this page.
- Calvary teaching certainly does not say that “We’re the only way”. Although some in Calvary may have that attitude, I don’t personally know anyone at a Calvary Chapel who believes that. I have met some that think Clavary is the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I do know Pastor Chuck certainly dosn’t think that.
- Although Calvary teaching can point out error in Catholic doctrine in my view, I wouldn’t say we are anti-catholic. I feel much closer to the Catholic church, than many mainline denominations. I think people who have left the RCC can at times be bitter because they feel they were never taught the Word of God, but spent their time repeating words (Matthew 6:7) trying to earn there way to heaven, or earn a loved ones way out of a purgatory that is never mentioned in scripture, the Jewish faith, or by the early church fathers. Dave Hunt, who is popular in some Calvary circles can go overboard in his Catholic bashing, believing any truly saved Catholic would be forced by the Holy Spirit to leave the RCC. I don’t agree. most Calvaryites I know don’t agree.
- The rapture certainly is Biblical, and comes from Harpazo in the greek translated to “Rapturos” in the Latin Vulgate version of 1 Thess. 4. It is not a 19th century invention, considering Iraeneus talks clearly about this event in his “Against Heresies” as being before the anti-christ is revealed. Daniel 9, 11, 12 and the matching references in Revelation show the anti-christ will be revealed during a 7 year period known as the 70th week (Week of years equals 7 years) of Daniel. Many amilenialists are surprised when they read from the early church fathers and find out they were all chiliists until Origen in the 3rd century deviated from a literal interpretation of scripture. When Constantine came the church thought they had been wrong about the imminent return of Christ. Unfortunately the sudden lack of a desire for Christ’s return made the church more and more impure, but that’s another thread.
- Anytime man is involved in the church, there is sin. So yes, there have been errors in Calvary Chapels. I regret the one persons bad experience with Pastor Chuck. However, anytime you have man involved there will be mistakes. I have been treated far worse by Catholic priests, but I don’t have a chip on my shoulder about it. I visited some friends in Mexico who conduct a Bible study outside Aguascalientes. The local priest fires the people up to run the “Aleluyas” out of town. Some have been hit by bricks by the mobs. The bishop in Chiapas supports the same kind of persecution. So if some of you want to throw stones, go ahead, but I doubt anyone will be edified by it.
- I have met many people absolutely heartbroken by the way the RCC has handled the child abuse cases. They don’t feel safe with their kids being involved with the Catholic church. I personally know of a priest who is the brother of an aquaintance of mine. I know for a fact that this priest was abusing a 15 year old girl in Huntington Beach along with another priest. They would switch off with the girl for months. When the diocese found out, they sent him to Dana Point where they have a school full of kids!!!
I know Calvaryites and Catholics who are depending on their baptism to save them. They think their works have bought them a place in heaven. Unfortunately for them, God can not be indebted to anyone. So if you think God owes you, think again.
Any questions? Please be civilized.
J
James_2_24
Guest
I am a revert to the Catholic Faith from Calvary Chapel. Thank you for your posting here. I once attended Calvary Chapel down in the San Diego area for a matter of months when I first came back to faith in Jesus Christ. It was through my intense study of the Historic Christian Faith and Scripture that made my stay with Calvary Chapel so brief since the errors taught there were very evident. I am grateful for being shown the way to the truth through Calvary Chapel – however, once seeing the truth I realized quickly that I could not stay.
People may be bitter by the lack of teaching or bad teaching by any particular Priest but it becomes a problem when they allow this to cause them to leave the true Church of Jesus Christ. There is more than enough true teaching on Scripture in the Catholic Church that is backed up by the Magisterium. If one is not spiritually lazy they can find the answers they need. Or go to another parish that provides them with proper teaching.
As for your claim that the Catholic Church teaches that one can earn their way to heaven through the repeating of words, I would like this teaching to be pointed out. I have never heard of such a thing. On the other hand I hear it claimed that the Catholic Church teaches a “gospel of works” all the time. I even believed this when I use to attend Calvary Chapel. It is simply not the case, and any honest researcher of Catholic Doctrine will find this out.
My Problem occurs with Calvary Chapel in the fact that it often contradicts itself and holds varying teachings depending on where you go. A lot of its teachings are not found in the Bible.
God bless
This is a problem – because as I soon found out there does not seem to be an official teaching of Calvary Chapel to which you can hold each Calvary Chapel accountable. You can find different teaching from one Calvary Chapel to another and all claim to be united under the one Holy Spirit.
In all honesty, Dave Hunt is a nut. I have his book and read through it shortly after leaving Calvary Chapel called, “A Woman Rides the Beast”. It’s a bunch of nonsense put together either by a dishonest man out ot make a buck, or someone who has some serious mental issues.
People may be bitter by the lack of teaching or bad teaching by any particular Priest but it becomes a problem when they allow this to cause them to leave the true Church of Jesus Christ. There is more than enough true teaching on Scripture in the Catholic Church that is backed up by the Magisterium. If one is not spiritually lazy they can find the answers they need. Or go to another parish that provides them with proper teaching.
As for your claim that the Catholic Church teaches that one can earn their way to heaven through the repeating of words, I would like this teaching to be pointed out. I have never heard of such a thing. On the other hand I hear it claimed that the Catholic Church teaches a “gospel of works” all the time. I even believed this when I use to attend Calvary Chapel. It is simply not the case, and any honest researcher of Catholic Doctrine will find this out.
No offense, but the rapture is a man-made addition to the Faith. You should – if you have not dug your heels in to the point of not wanting to hear the other side – read the book “The Rapture Trap” by Paul Thigpen. (I think you can purchase it from this site, or from Amazon.com)
??? This is the classic type of attitude that drove me out of Calvary Chapel. When doctrine is debated, Calvary Chapelites will try to find sinful Priests and/or Bishops as a “reason” that Catholicism is in error. Sin cannot negate the truth of God or his Church, it is powerless against it. If this Priest and Bishop are doing these things – it is shameful. However, it does not shake my faith in Christ and the Church he established.
My Problem occurs with Calvary Chapel in the fact that it often contradicts itself and holds varying teachings depending on where you go. A lot of its teachings are not found in the Bible.
Sure this is heartbreaking and anyone who stands for justice and righteousness should indeed be heartbroken. It is besides the point of whether or not the Catholic Faith is true. Sure we know of many Catholics, even prominent ones, that have fallen short of what the Church and Christ demands of them.
God bless
J
James_2_24
Guest
Mark:
by the way, if you want to discuss Catholics/Calvary Chapel further… please send me a private message and we can exchange email addresses. The 5000 word limit on this forum is a bit unbearable. I wonder when this limit was put into place. I seem to remember being able to post a bit longer posts than that.
Moderators, if you are reading this, is it possible to get this limit bumped up a bit? 10,000? Or even 7500 would be nice!
God Bless,
Tim O’Brien
by the way, if you want to discuss Catholics/Calvary Chapel further… please send me a private message and we can exchange email addresses. The 5000 word limit on this forum is a bit unbearable. I wonder when this limit was put into place. I seem to remember being able to post a bit longer posts than that.
Moderators, if you are reading this, is it possible to get this limit bumped up a bit? 10,000? Or even 7500 would be nice!
God Bless,
Tim O’Brien
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JohnnyReb
Guest
That’s what did it for me. Now enrolled in RCIA, and I have a M.Div from a Protestant, Evangeical Charismatic theological seminary.
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billguy
Guest
google “catholic knight calvary chapel” and follow the top link ‘The Catholic Knight: Is Calvary Chapel Anti-Catholic?’
The Catholic knight is actually a former Calvary Chapel instructor…a must read. He seems articulate and intelligent.
I just ordered “Catholicism Meets Calvary Chapel” - available on CD from many sources.
“Is Calvary Chapel anti-Catholic?” The answer is overwhelmingly, YES. I received first hand experience with this when I naively took up an offer to attend a Calvary Chapel churtsch(with an emphasis on ‘hurts’).
Focusing on the RCC errors would be great, if only they would not get their representation of Catholic teachings so wrong all the time.
I’ve been to several Calvary Chapel services, and in more than half the pastor was taking jabs at the RCC. Most importantly, I knew that what he was attacking was NOT RCC teachings and took the RCC out of context. One time he quoted an obscure RCC bishop in scandinavia who said we should call God ‘allah’, which got at least one hateful laugh from the congregation[apparently, the pastor and congregant had no idea that “Allah” is actually the dictionary name of “God” in arabic, and that the bishop had just served in Indonesia where all Christians call God “Allah”]. I further went in back of the chapel and found a literature/audio/video section that contained several pamphlets that gave yet more similar slander[such as the sinful pamphlet “What you need to know about Roman Catholicism”]. I was taken aback, but out of curiousity I wondered if more than just this pastor was doing this slander, so I searched the internet. Lo and behold, it seems that it is the Calvary process to attack a false representation of RCC teachings so as to open the way for easy conversions. Calvary Chapel is one of the fastest growing church networks, and considering their tactics, unsurprisingly boasts one of the largest former catholic memberships.
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ppasa316
Guest
Just wanted to say a few words about Calvary Chapel. I left the Catholic Church 10 years ago because I felt the Lord telling me to learn his word. I grew up in the Catholic Church and never once did we ever take a bible with us. I learned more about scripture in a few months at calvary than i ever did at the catholic church. We study the books of the bible chapter by chapter and verse by verse. We usually don’t spend a lot of time on a particular subject only as the bible presents itself. Like the end times. Our Pastors make themselves available to speak to them if you want to talk about a certain subject. At the catholic church we never heard about salvation only about the works that one does. Which is sad. I urge any Catholic to read their bibles and commentaries to better understand the context of the bible.
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nbtb1348
Guest
Calvary Chapel is an awesome place where the truth is preached and people are loved and the kingdom grows powerfully. It’s not a perfect place. There are none on this planet. All of our churches reflect that, don’t they!
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ppasa316
Guest
why would you find it sad that your friends have left the catholic church for calvary chapel. Have you read my post. That pretty much explains why i left. A good book to read is the agreements and disagreements of catholicism and evangelicals by Norman Geisler. It is very good reading with lots of scripture references
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Pacbox
Guest
I would normally have let this thread die (it is so old) but felt this remark and your previous post merited a comment.
KnightRider is sad because his friends left Jesus who can be found in the Eucharist. At Calvary Chapel, all you have is a Bible. Not very filling.
As for not having the Bible at Mass, did you listen? Really listen? I ask because there is so much Scripture read and said during one Mass than you will find in a Calvary Chapel service. And Catholics can read the Bible on their own or with a Bible study in their parish.
I question the validity of you hearing Jesus telling you to leave Him in the Eucharist to follow a man in a man made church. Now, I am not saying that you don’t find some fulfillment in that community. But it isn’t truly Jesus centered. Calvary Chapel focuses heavily on Chuck Smith’s interpretation of the Bible and pushes that forth so it is heavily Chuck Smith centered. Read the library here on the homepage. Read books by Catholic authors then tell me that you have Jesus fully outside the Catholic Church in Calvary Chapel.
The Catholic Church understands and teaches that we are saved by grace through faith poured out in loving works. We do works not because they save us but because we love God and want to do His will. When you love someone, do you just say I love you and leave it at that? Or do you do things for that person to show your love? That’s why we do works out of love not out of some false idea that works save us. And we will be judged by our works, as Jesus says in the parable of the sheep and goats.
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Tonks40
Guest
In a couple of minutes…I’m taking my bible to bible study…knowing in the next building over is the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Jesus Christ!
Who says Catholics don’t take their Bibles???
Who says Catholics don’t take their Bibles???
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