Any Catholic *Apologists* Left?

[Machen]

What is the deal with all the hit threads about James White here and on the Envoy forums?

When you look at what people are actually saying, one thing is clear: None of you know what apologetics is. Is there a thoughtful Catholic apologist left anywhere who can actually mount an argument without attacking James White’s character? My goodness.

Where are the codre of Catholic voices rebuking people like RyanL, Artsippo, Jerry-Jet, Prejean, and all the rest of them? If I were a thoughtful Catholic (and not just a hot-head behind a keyboard), such behavior was utterly humiliate me and I would call those people to the carpet.

Sadly, the responses to this will probably only prove my point.

Machen

 

[vz71]

I’m here:yup:

I choose not to respond to White.

There comes a point when you need to accept that no amount of evidence will convince someone. This seems to be the case with White.
Further, I have found him to be dishonest in some of his debate tactics. There is no new information he has to offer me; so I choose to ignore him.

I trust that this response proves your point.

 

[Church_Militant]

I deal with his arguments and not his “character”, however, as a couple of threads have pointed out. Mr. White is not exemplary himself, so why berate us? If others take offense and choose to discuss it, that in no way makes their points less valid, does it?

I frankly don’t read his stuff until someone proposes it as gospel truth and then I go through and prove his propaganda wrong. Something that really isn’t all that hard where he deals with facts as opposed to misinformation. In this, White is no different than many other n-C “apologists”.

So far as I’m concerned, the facts speak clearly and the rest is the function of the Holy Spirit. White’s just a coincidental…
Pax Domini sit semper vobiscum,

 

[Machen]

As expected, neither poster thus far has answered any of the questions I asked.

Anyone else want to try to answer what I actually asked?

Machen

 

[corvidae]

I think you will find many refuting Mr. White’s arguments on these forums. And some even do it without attacking his character.

Just because they do not want to debate in person, or on the phone does not mean they are wrong, or that they cannot refute the arguments, but rather, that they may not be as good of debaters as Mr. White.

I think if you look at the forums, even the one’s that look like they are attacking Mr. White, you will find that in reality they are trying to refute arguements, and just get a little carried away.

A lone Raven

 

[Scottgun]

I will answer every one.

What is the deal with all the hit threads about James White here and on the Envoy forums?

Have not seen one lately, let alone “all” that give me the sense that there are lots of them. I don’t visit Envoy, so if it is true over there I don’t know about it.

When you look at what people are actually saying, one thing is clear: None of you know what apologetics is.

Dogmatic generalization without proof AND it is not a question, so moving on…

Is there a thoughtful Catholic apologist left anywhere who can actually mount an argument without attacking James White’s character? My goodness.

Sure, why not?

Where are the codre of Catholic voices rebuking people like RyanL, Artsippo, Jerry-Jet, Prejean, and all the rest of them?

Probably in school studying in RyanL’s case. Could not say about the others, but I’m willing to bet it is the same reason.

If I were a thoughtful Catholic (and not just a hot-head behind a keyboard), such behavior was utterly humiliate me and I would call those people to the carpet.

Sadly, the responses to this will probably only prove my point.

Machen

No question there.

Let’s add 'em up: I count three actual questions among several dubious assertions. Which I answered.
This reminds me of the $10,000 challenge to Catholics in which they would give the money to anyone who could answer a series of questions. Of course they didn’t say the answers had to be good or even sensical, so technically I could have answered “peanut-butter and jelly sandwhiches” for every question and they would have owed my the money. Something tells me the check would not be forthcoming.

 

[Little_Mary]

www.biblechristiansociety.com

 

[johnsummers]

What is the deal with all the hit threads about James White here and on the Envoy forums?

When you look at what people are actually saying, one thing is clear: None of you know what apologetics is. Is there a thoughtful Catholic apologist left anywhere who can actually mount an argument without attacking James White’s character? My goodness.

Where are the codre of Catholic voices rebuking people like RyanL, Artsippo, Jerry-Jet, Prejean, and all the rest of them? If I were a thoughtful Catholic (and not just a hot-head behind a keyboard), such behavior was utterly humiliate me and I would call those people to the carpet.

Sadly, the responses to this will probably only prove my point.

Machen

Anything that distracts from Our Blessed Lord is not worth responding to.

 

[PhilVaz]

Machen << Is there a thoughtful Catholic apologist left anywhere who can actually mount an argument without attacking James White’s character? My goodness. >>

Yeah buddy, respond to these:

St. Augustine on the Eucharist

St. Augustine on the Papacy

Immaculate Conception, Bible and Church Fathers

James White blog entries from the past few days effectively demolished. No attack on his character from me. I’m sorry people do that, but it is the way of Internet discussions. Has been ever since I can remember (FidoNet days).

Phil P

 

[vz71]

As expected, neither poster thus far has answered any of the questions I asked.

Anyone else want to try to answer what I actually asked?

Machen

Actually, I did.
Your subject line was a question, and allow me to repeat…

I’m here:yup:

I choose not to respond to White.

Further, in your OP, you also asked

Is there a thoughtful Catholic apologist left anywhere who can actually mount an argument without attacking James White’s character? My goodness.

To which I also replied:“There comes a point when you need to accept that no amount of evidence will convince someone. This seems to be the case with White.
Further, I have found him to be dishonest in some of his debate tactics. There is no new information he has to offer me; so I choose to ignore him.”

So when you said “As expected, neither poster thus far has answered any of the questions I asked.” What exactly were you wanting???

 

[PhilVaz]

Scottgun << This reminds me of the $10,000 challenge to Catholics in which they would give the money to anyone who could answer a series of questions. >>

It was $100,000 and Eric Svendsen was answered by me.

I’m still waiting for my money… I answered all his questions. He didn’t ask for correct answers, just answers.

Phil P

 

[MrS]

When you look at what people are actually saying, one thing is clear: None of you know what apologetics is.
Sadly, the responses to this will probably only prove my point.

Machen

Enlighten us dear friend… all this time I thought that apologetics was

1] gaining understanding of the Faith (one Lord, ONE FAITH, one Baptism)

2] taking any opportunity to share that Faith… and

3] when necessary, defending that Faith to best on my ability.

Perhaps you really just noticed that this is a Catholic site literally filled with people looking to better understand their Faith, and often wanting to share it with others, Catholic or not.

Further, anti and non-Catholics are very active trying to preach a different and erroneous understanding of the Faith, and share or even prostelitize us … thus we have ample opportunity to defend the Truth…

as for me… Luke 17:10… it’s my job as a Catholic

.

 

[Scottgun]

Scottgun << This reminds me of the $10,000 challenge to Catholics in which they would give the money to anyone who could answer a series of questions. >>

It was $100,000 and Eric Svendsen was answered by me.

I’m still waiting for my money… I answered all his questions. He didn’t ask for correct answers, just answers.

Phil P

You are right, but I have also seen a $10,000 variation from someone else. Perhaps it was a popular rhetorical ploy awhile back among anti-Catholic polemicists.

 

[MrS]

What is the deal with all the hit threads about James White here and on the Envoy forums?

Machen

By the way… welcome to Catholic Answers… I don’t want to give the impression that you will be discounted because you chose to come here and start a “hit” thread on Catholic Apologists.

(and by the way, “most” Catholic "Apologists are not left… they are right. smileys.smileycentral.com/cat/23/23_3_60.gif )

You are encouraged to post on any thread where you feel you can offer some constructive (name removed by moderator)ut.

You will be responded to if you either ask questions, or if you offer differing opinions… theological or not.

enjoy and welcome

.

http://www.smileycentral.com/sig.jsp?pc=ZSzeb112&pp=ZN

 

[Guardian]

What is the deal with all the hit threads about James White here and on the Envoy forums?

The deal is Mr. White, as he states himself, has written the most and debated the most against Catholicism. As Catholics, it is our right and duty to defend the truth against those who lead the sheep astray. THAT is the deal.

When you look at what people are actually saying, one thing is clear: None of you know what apologetics is. Is there a thoughtful Catholic apologist left anywhere who can actually mount an argument without attacking James White’s character? My goodness.

I know what it is…

Apologetics =

1. The branch of theology that is concerned with defending or proving the truth of Christian doctrines.
2. Formal argumentation in defense of something, such as a position or system.

• Dictionary.com

There are many Catholic apologists left that can mount an argument without attacking James White’s character. It’s been done over and over again.

Where are the codre of Catholic voices rebuking people like RyanL, Artsippo, Jerry-Jet, Prejean, and all the rest of them? If I were a thoughtful Catholic (and not just a hot-head behind a keyboard), such behavior was utterly humiliate me and I would call those people to the carpet.

They are all about. We rebuke for what its worth.

 

[RyanL]

Where are the codre [sic] of Catholic voices rebuking people like RyanL, Artsippo, Jerry-Jet, Prejean, and all the rest of them?

For what, precisely, do you believe I should be rebuked? Do you believe I should be rebuked for saying that I respect James White’s intellect, or for saying that I believe he is trying (albeit in a misguided way) to serve God with his whole self? After all, that’s exactly what I’ve said here. Honestly - have you ever heard James White say anything like that about a Catholic apologist? Splinters and logs, my friend, splinters and logs.

Or perhaps you believe I should be rebuked for saying that he routinely engages in the sin of hypocrisy? What I have done is try to document merely a few of the attacks he claims he does not engage in, and I don’t believe I’ve been overly gruff in doing so. I’m not the first to do this in a reasonably charitable way, and I’m not the first to whom James White has responded, more or less, “So what? Even when I’m wrong, I’m never wrong.” Don’t believe me? See here.

If I were a thoughtful Catholic (and not just a hot-head behind a keyboard), such behavior was [sic] utterly humiliate me and I would call those people to the carpet.

It appears that not being a “thoughtful Catholic” hasn’t stopped you from attempting to do so, so I’m curious as to why you felt it necessary to include the statement.

That aside, do you believe that James White’s hypocrisy should go unacknowledged? If you see someone sinning, what is the Christian thing to do? Do you think I was waaaaay out of line in quoting James White’s ad hominem attacks and denouncing them as such? Do you honestly think that’s unreasonable of me? What would you have me do?

God Bless,
RyanL

 

[visavismeyou]

What is the deal with all the hit threads about James White here and on the Envoy forums?

When you look at what people are actually saying, one thing is clear: None of you know what apologetics is. Is there a thoughtful Catholic apologist left anywhere who can actually mount an argument without attacking James White’s character? My goodness.

Where are the codre of Catholic voices rebuking people like RyanL, Artsippo, Jerry-Jet, Prejean, and all the rest of them? If I were a thoughtful Catholic (and not just a hot-head behind a keyboard), such behavior was utterly humiliate me and I would call those people to the carpet.

Sadly, the responses to this will probably only prove my point.

Machen

I consider myself a fledgeling Catholic appologist, but I have not read anything about this man you speak of. I will go look him up and respond.

 

[Brian_C]

As expected, neither poster thus far has answered any of the questions I asked.

Anyone else want to try to answer what I actually asked?

Machen

Are you kidding? Have you read White’s responses to rightandreason’s questions? They are a mixture of ad hominem and sarcasm and display a general lack of anything resembling Christian charity.

I have the Bible Answerman debates on CD and I was pretty impressed with the amount of respect White and Akin showed each other as well as Mr. White’s arguments. Sadly, after visiting Mr. White’s website and seeing other responses posted here, I see that was the exception rather than the rule. I’ll pray for him, though.

 

[PhilVaz]

BrianC << Sadly, after visiting Mr. White’s website and seeing other responses posted here, I see that was the exception rather than the rule. >>

Actually virtually all of White’s formal oral debates are respectful, just like the BAM debate from 1995. In writing it is a different story, but I would especially recommend the following oral debates:

White vs. Sungenis on Justification (May 2000)
White vs. Sungenis on Papacy (Oct 2000)
White vs. Pacwa on Justification (1991)
White vs. Matatics on Sola Scriptura (1997)

The only times the formal debates get a little nasty or overheated is when the Catholic debater has problems handling White’s arguments, quotations from the Fathers or White’s interpretation of Scripture or history, and it is the Catholic side that usually starts the downslide in the debate. This occured in the following: White vs. Stravinskas on purgatory, White vs. Staples on papacy, the first White vs. Sungenis on Eucharist (1999). Avoid these. The second Sungenis vs. White on Eucharist (2003) is better. But the above 4 are my personal favorites.

There I just defended White a bit. You see how fair I am?

Phil P

 

[Brian_C]

Right, it’s the remarks ABOUT his debates and discussions that he makes on his site that I have had a problem with.

aomin.org/Roman.html