Any Catholic ever been out debated by a Protestant?

[Miriam1947]

My very best friend who is like a sister to me is a Protestant and I can talk with her about anything concerning G-d. We have our differences but simply accept and respect each other so we can talk about even the Eucharist or their Last Supper celebration or services at the synagogue.

One thing though that I find hard to refute is that Catholics have idols in church. There’re statues of dead people that Catholics worship. G-d says in the bible that we shouldn’t even make an image of anything that is in heaven.

How would you refute this???

This has been debated here before. Do a search for threads and they will help you.

Statues are not idols and we do not worship them. If God didn’t want us to make images why the serpent during the time of Moses, why the ark of the covenant with statues, etc?

We are not to worship idols and I know of no Catholics who do.

 

[Cat]

The best argument that a Catholic can present to a Protestant is the argument of a redeemed life.

Yes, we need to know intellectually that all the ducks are in a row and that we are in the True Church of Jesus Christ. Yes, there are plenty of apologies that can be used to support the truth that the Catholic Church is Jesus’s Church, the Church He established on this earth.

But on a practical level, it really doesn’t matter if all the theology lines up. What everyone is looking for is whether the theology makes a visible DIFFERENCE in a person’s life? Is the person “better” as a result of their “correct” Church?

Mother Teresa never, to my knowledge, was involved in verbal apologetics debate with any Protestant. Yet she persuaded many Protestants, including Protestant teachers like Chuck Colson (RIP), of the validity of the Catholic Church. Colson never (to my knowledge) became Catholic, but in his book, Being the Body, he argued passionately in favor of Catholicism and pleaded for Protestants and Catholics to get back together. His description of Pope John Paul II’s involvement with the fall of European Communism was the best that I have read (I’m sure that the scholarly treatises are better, but I’m not a history scholar).

Being the Body was one of the factors that caused me to convert to Catholicism.

Many Protestants stay with their ecclesial communities because they know and trust the people, and they see a lot of simple goodness, love, and generosity in the Protestant world.

I’m going to say something that is hard for Catholics to hear–often, the reason why Protestants refuse to even listen to Catholic apologetics is because they know too many Catholics who are mired down in sin, visible sin, and don’t seem to have any interest in being “good.”

I remember my parents talking about the Catholics who would go to Mass on Saturday evening, and then go out afterwards to bars and parties and get drunk.

To many Protestants, getting drunk, or even drinking alcohol, is utterly unacceptable. This is changing, and nowadays, we see plenty of Evangelical Protestants who will enjoy a beer or a glass of wine. But there are still a LOT of Protestants who find any kind of drinking “sinful.”

Alcohol use by Catholics was the biggest barrier to my becoming Catholic. I am still bothered by it after nearly nine years in the Church.

But it’s not just alcohol. A lot of Catholics “shack up” and make no apologies for it. This is a visible sin, and when a Protestant sees this, they will not listen to apologies in support of Catholicism. What they SEE tells them that Catholicism “doesn’t work.”

Of course Protestants sin, often mightily. But that doesn’t excuse Catholics for continuing to practice a lifestyle of sin while at the same time claiming to be Christians. Many Protestants will not accept this. To Protestants, especially Evangelical Protestants, if someone is a Christian, they have turned their back on sin and they’re striving to be righteous through Jesus Christ. When Protestants see someone continuing to live in sin and actually flaunt it, but then go to Mass–this is a deal-breaker. They won’t even listen.

BUT…when Protestants see Catholics who live a good, decent, moral, humble, loving lifestyle, and who continuously give the glory to the Lord Jesus Christ–that’s a deal-maker.

I hope this post has been helpful to those wondering how to “debate” Protestants. Yes, be ready to give an anwer, but even more importantly, be ready to live the Life.

 

[JustaServant]

Nobody is ever convinced of anything thru ‘debate’ or argument. They just dig deeper into the trench and find new reasons to rationalize thier position. People can rationalize themselves into believing anything.
The best way, I have found, is to ask probing questions. People many times see the insanity of what they are saying by simply letting them talk. If they have a brain in their head and are not a fanatic, they will come around to what is intellectually honest.
This doesn’t have to be a Catholic/Protestant thing. This is a process that can be used in any discussion of any subject.
I posted this on the WN section a while back. The mainstream media uses Saul Alinsky’s strategy: “Win At Any Cost, Even If You Have To Lie” for debates. It’s very effective and many people are not even aware they are doing it. I’m not using all the points, because they would not apply to this discussion.

1) Power is not only what you have, but what the enemy thinks you have.
We see this tactic in many forms. For example, projecting your own movement as mainstream, and your opponent’s as fringe. Convincing your opponent that his fight is a futile one. Your opposition may act differently, or even hesitate to act at all, based on their perception of your power.
2) Never go outside the experience of your people, and whenever possible, go outside of the experience of the enemy.
Don’t get drawn into a debate about a subject you do not know as well as or better than your opposition. If possible, draw them into such a situation instead. Go off on tangents. Look for ways to increase insecurity, anxiety and uncertainty in your opposition.
3) Make the enemy live up to their own book of rules.
The objective is to target the opponent’s credibility and reputation by accusations of hypocrisy. If the tactician can catch his opponent in even the smallest misstep, it creates an opening for further attacks, and distracts away from the broader moral question.
4) Ridicule is man’s most potent weapon.
Baseless ridicule is almost impossible to counter because it is meant to be irrational. It infuriates the opposition, which then reacts to your advantage. It also works as a pressure point to force the enemy into concessions.
7)* Keep the pressure on with different tactics and actions, and utilize all events of the period for your purpose.*
Keep trying new things to keep the opposition off balance. As the opposition masters one approach, hit them from the flank with something new. Never give the target a chance to rest, regroup, recover or re-strategize. Take advantage of current events and twist their implications to support your position. Never let a good crisis go to waste.
9) The major premise for tactics is the development of operations that will maintain a constant pressure upon the opposition.
The objective of this pressure is to force the opposition to react and make the mistakes that are necessary for the ultimate success of the campaign.
12) Pick the target, freeze it, personalize it and polarize it.
Cut off the support network and isolate the target from sympathy. The target’s supporters will expose themselves. Go after individual people, not organizations or institutions. People hurt faster than institutions.

The next time you view an MSM debate, watch the pundits carefully, you will likely see many if not all of the strategies above used on some unsuspecting individual attempting to tell the truth.
The best way to disarm disinformation agents is to know their methods inside and out.

 

[PRmerger]

An amazing 65% of Jehovah’s Witnesses in my area are ex-Catholics. This shows the abysmal catachesis taking place in our Church in the recent past. So yes, Catholics can definitely be out debated by a Protestant, or even a fringe group. There’s nothing magical about being Catholic. If you don’t know your stuff you are vulnerable.

Yes. I heard that the biggest Christian “denomination” is Catholics. The 2nd biggest is ex-Catholics…

 

[PRmerger]

One thing though that I find hard to refute is that Catholics have idols in church. There’re statues of dead people that Catholics worship. G-d says in the bible that we shouldn’t even make an image of anything that is in heaven.

How would you refute this???

I would refute it by asking even the most un-catechized, lump-in-the-pew Catholic: “See that statue over there? Do you worship that statue?”

He will either give you a blank stare or say, “Ummm…I don’t think so!”

Either way, you will know that no Catholic, even the dum-dums, think we worship statues.

That is a false impression given by people who are clueless about Catholicism.

 

[exnihilo]

Further to this we have to always remember Jesus’ words about loving one another. Sounds like a cliche nowadays (as if it was that easy) but the real meaning imo is that we must talk with Love because without it we’ll be like empty gongs.

I think this is key. I think President Lincoln, who used religious language (though he seems not to have been very religious), had a great insight into this. He was certainly a good debater and persuasive. Speaking to a temperance society he said:

Human nature is God’s decree, and can never be reversed. When the conduct of men is … to be influenced, persuasion — kind, unassuming persuasion — should ever be adopted. It is an old and a true maxim, that ‘a drop of honey catches more flies than a gallon of gall.’ So with men. If you would win a man to your cause, first convince him that you are his sincere friend. Therein is a drop of honey that catches his heart, which, say what he will, is the great high road to his reason, and which, when once gained, you will find but little trouble in convincing his judgment of the justice of your cause…

[But if] on the contrary, [you] assume to dictate to his judgment, or to command his action, or to mark him as one to be shunned and despised … he will retreat within himself, close all the avenues to his head and his heart; and though your cause be naked truth itself, transformed to the heaviest lance, harder than steel, and sharper than steel can be made, and though you throw it with more than Herculean force and precision, you shall no more be able to pierce him, than to penetrate the hard shell of a tortoise with a rye straw.

Such is man, and so must he be understood by those who would lead him, even to his own best interest.

Who wants to listen to the clangings of heated words?

Unfortunately many people otherwise the cable news networks would not have so many shows featuring shrill voices yelling at each other in ‘debate’.

Nobody is ever convinced of anything thru ‘debate’ or argument.

I would not say nobody. I think I can be. I would also draw a distinction between knowing intellectually the truth and living it. I imagine many of us, if not all, have experienced knowing in the deepest part of our soul something is not right but justifying it to ourselves (an interesting concept in itself) or others. We can certainly resist truth and the Truth. But a seed can often be planted even in debate.

The best way, I have found, is to ask probing questions. People many times see the insanity of what they are saying by simply letting them talk. If they have a brain in their head and are not a fanatic, they will come around to what is intellectually honest.

I agree. This seems to work for me. The Socratic method is very powerful. It doesn’t attack the other person but has more of a spirit of ‘come now, and let us reason together’.

 

[Christian_Unity]

It’s not that their arguments are strong it is that an unprepared Catholic is weak, just like anyone who is unprepared.

You can practice on me because I am an ecumenical Calvinist. I embrace Catholics as my dear siblings in Christ just like you embrace me as a separated brethren in Christ.

:hey_bud: .
I am also a co-administrator on a Christian Fellowship of Facebook page consisting of two Catholic admins and two Protestant admins who moderate the ecumenical site. If you are a Facebook user, send me a request if you have an interest.

 

[JillianRose]

Just curious has any catholic ever had this experience.

When you finally figure out Protestants really “disagree” with you.

I remember it was about 20 years ago. I was on my Catholic university campus,

when a friend of mine from engineering class handed me a pamphlet with all

this stuff about how the pope was evil. And how catholics didnt know how to read the bible.

It came as a shock to me. I never had heard such stuff and didnt have any arguements.

It was just a total shock to learn about such things.

I remember I kept going to mass , but I started to go to a weekly bible study with them.

They said they were non-denominational. So I would go to mass early and then go to church with them on Sunday.

I remember a lot of clapping and singing, it was hard to get used to at first.

After a couple months I was getting comfortable.

Then I overheard them gossiping really bad about a member , calling them a sinner and stuff.

Anyway, I stopped going shortly after.

Just wanted to say, if you are an unprepared catholic, the protestant arguments are

really strong.

Bless your heart. I too did not know this was going on with our Protestant brothers at your age either. When you think about it, why didn’t you know? BECAUSE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH DOES NOT PREACH THAT FROM THE PULPIT OR IN BIBLE STUDIES. Welcome to CAF!! Enjoy the Journey. Learn about your faith.

Remember, just because they say something is the Truth does not mean it is.

If you have any questions you can PM me or any of us!! We would love to help.

Blessings, My friend in Christ!!

P.S. also an added benefit of Caf is their cool Emoticons!! LOL

 

[JillianRose]

You can practice on me because I am an ecumenical Calvinist. I embrace Catholics as my dear siblings in Christ just like you embrace me as a separated brethren in Christ.

:hey_bud: .
I am also a co-administrator on a Christian Fellowship of Facebook page consisting of two Catholic admins and two Protestant admins who moderate the ecumenical site. If you are a Facebook user, send me a request if you have an interest.

Sounds Cool. My two best friends are Calvinist. (Dutch Reformed) I wish they could get to the point you are.

Blessings Brother in Christ!!

 

[504Katrin]

This has been debated here before. Do a search for threads and they will help you.

Statues are not idols and we do not worship them. If God didn’t want us to make images why the serpent during the time of Moses, why the ark of the covenant with statues, etc?

We are not to worship idols and I know of no Catholics who do.

Thanks, I will do a search and read what the threads say.

Did we make the serpant, or did G-d make the serpant?
The Ark used to be His home that He commanded us to build.

The statues are (representing) dead people to whom Catholics pray, so this is why I brought up the issue of idolworship.

I would refute it by asking even the most un-catechized, lump-in-the-pew Catholic: “See that statue over there? Do you worship that statue?”

He will either give you a blank stare or say, “Ummm…I don’t think so!”

Either way, you will know that no Catholic, even the dum-dums, think we worship statues.

That is a false impression given by people who are clueless about Catholicism.

I meant that Catholics worship the dead people that the statues represent, of course not the statue itself alone

Thanks to you guys for your replies.

 

[JillianRose]

I would refute it by asking even the most un-catechized, lump-in-the-pew Catholic: “See that statue over there? Do you worship that statue?”

He will either give you a blank stare or say, “Ummm…I don’t think so!”

Either way, you will know that no Catholic, even the dum-dums, think we worship statues.

That is a false impression given by people who are clueless about Catholicism.

I would also like to add the Church love Art!!

All types of people are “inspired” by art.

OUR catholic “art” inspires us to PRAY!! LOL

Have a great week PRmerger!! I always enjoy your posts!

 

[adf417]

I meant that Catholics worship the dead people that the statues represent, of course not the statue itself alone

Thanks to you guys for your replies.

Katrin, do you know of some Catholics that worship dead people? I think you misunderstood what PR was saying. The Catholics Church does not teach the worship of statues nor does she teach the worship of the dead people the statues represent. Where are you getting this misinformation?

 

[SteveVH]

I meant that Catholics worship the dead people that the statues represent, of course not the statue itself alone

Thanks to you guys for your replies.

You need to be very clear about this. Catholics worship no one except God, not Mary nor any of the saints, not statues, not those represented by the statues, no one, except God. I know you have not been taught this by the Catholic Church so where in the world did you ever get this idea? I would suggest that you begin studying your faith with some intensity. As I said before, an uncatechized Catholic is vulnerable to false attacks.

 

[PRmerger]

I meant that Catholics worship the dead people that the statues represent, of course not the statue itself alone

Thanks to you guys for your replies.

Firstly, no one in heaven is dead but is more ALIVE in Christ than we are. See the gospel for this coming weekend to show your friends how those in heaven are alive.

Secondly, Catholicism proclaims that worship is due to God alone. The saints in heaven are not worshipped.

 

[PRmerger]

I would also like to add the Church love Art!!

All types of people are “inspired” by art.

OUR catholic “art” inspires us to PRAY!! LOL

Have a great week PRmerger!! I always enjoy your posts!

Right back at 'cha, Jillian! :hug1:

 

[PRmerger]

Did we make the serpant, or did G-d make the serpant?
The Ark used to be His home that He commanded us to build.

God commands us to make statues in the Bible, Katrin.

We are forbidden to worship them, of course, but to have them in our homes and places of worship? Of course we can!

 

[Christian_Unity]

Sounds Cool. My two best friends are Calvinist. (Dutch Reformed) I wish they could get to the point you are.

Blessings Brother in Christ!!

Hi Jillian,

Let me know when you want to practice your Catholic apologetics on me. I do hold to a forensic justification through imputation, Sola Scriptura, 5 points of Calvinism, 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation, and all that fun stuff too. Do your friends hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith as their basic understanding?

 

[Isaiah45_9]

Hi Jillian,

Let me know when you want to practice your Catholic apologetics on me. I do hold to a forensic justification through imputation, Sola Scriptura, 5 points of Calvinism, 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation, and all that fun stuff too. Do your friends hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith as their basic understanding?

It seems you also hold to Forums Hit n’ Run

 

[JillianRose]

Hi Jillian,

Let me know when you want to practice your Catholic apologetics on me. I do hold to a forensic justification through imputation, Sola Scriptura, 5 points of Calvinism, 5 solas of the Protestant Reformation, and all that fun stuff too. Do your friends hold to the Westminster Confession of Faith as their basic understanding?

Wow!! I know all about TULIP!! LOL NO they are DUTCH REFORMED!! LOL

Their saying is if you ain’t dutch you ain’t much!! lol

They are the Heidelberg catechism ones. The 144,000 are saved ones.

She is a United reformed Church and is the only one here, see link:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Reformed_Churches_in_North_America

Thanks for the apologetics offer, Although I got my hands full with them. This summer her kids told me that Catholics don’t love Jesus. So as you see, it will be along road with them.

Peace,
Jill

 

[Christian_Unity]

Wow!! I know all about TULIP!! LOL NO they are DUTCH REFORMED!! LOL

Their saying is if you ain’t dutch you ain’t much!! lol

They are the Heidelberg catechism ones. The 144,000 are saved ones.

She is a United reformed Church and is the only one here, see link:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Reformed_Churches_in_North_America

Thanks for the apologetics offer, Although I got my hands full with them. This summer her kids told me that Catholics don’t love Jesus. So as you see, it will be along road with them.

Peace,
Jill

That’s too funny . I didn’t know there was a Calvinist exclusive version (being the only 144,000 that are saved). I do know Westboro Baptist Church claims TULIP too… but they are not real Calvinists since they are Baptist. Not all Calvinists are well balanced… I like Catholics… and yes there is a good Catholic site with testimonies of converted Calvinists. I do know Catholics tend to elevate Calvinists that convert to the Catholic Faith such as Scott Hahn and others like him. I guess if a Catholic converts a Calvinist, it counts twice as much in comparison to your typical non-denominational Protestant. I will find that conversion site for you of ex-Calvinists who are now Catholic. Here it is…

calledtocommunion.com/