Any converts from atheism/agnosticism?

[Jessamy]

Hello all. I’ve been lurking and occasionally posting around here for quite some time now, and I’ve kind of hit a stand still on my “search” for truth.

I come from an immediate family of atheists. My dad’s family are Catholics (though not especially devout ones) and my mom’s family are pretty much atheists as well. I have had very few discussions with my family regarding religion, but I grew up with the notion that it was nonsensical. This past summer I did quite a bit of reading, mostly starting with intellectual arguments for God’s existence. I found many quite convincing, to a degree I certainly hadn’t expected. I also listened to most of the New Testament as an audio book while working my very repetitive summer job.

My boyfriend is Catholic, so that has what’s led me here in particular. I’ve certainly learned a lot about Catholicism and I appreciate all the Catholic teachings that have made my boyfriend into the loving, selfless person that he is. He has been so helpful in encouraging me to keep asking questions without pushing. I find I agree with so many things Catholics teach on the moral level, and feel I could believe in many more if I truly believed in God’s existence.

But there’s the problem. How can one be convinced of God’s existence when everything in her upbringing tells her this a load of baloney? Where does faith come from if it isn’t gifted to you as a child? I’ve tried to pray a little but I feel mostly like I’m talking to myself.

I am not looking for intellectual arguments here; I’ve seen enough. I know the major ones and find them convincing, just not compellingly so. In any case, they don’t necessarily apply to the exact Christian concept of God. What I’d like to see are stories from people who’ve come the same way, if there are any here. How did you overcome doubts and prejudices about Christianity? How did you come to accept the Bible and Church as the real deal?

I know there will probably be some people who are not converts posting on this thread and trying to answer, and I’m okay with that, but please really think your comments through. It’s not enough to tell someone who has never been encouraged to believe that the Bible is true because the Catholic Church says so. I also tend to take things personally…. So be nice if at all possible….

Thanks for reading/responding.

 

[Seeks_God]

But there’s the problem. How can one be convinced of God’s existence when everything in her upbringing tells her this a load of baloney? Where does faith come from if it isn’t gifted to you as a child? I’ve tried to pray a little but I feel mostly like I’m talking to myself.

I am not looking for intellectual arguments here; I’ve seen enough. I know the major ones and find them convincing, just not compellingly so. In any case, they don’t necessarily apply to the exact Christian concept of God. What I’d like to see are stories from people who’ve come the same way, if there are any here. How did you overcome doubts and prejudices about Christianity? How did you come to accept the Bible and Church as the real deal?

Well, I hope you don;t mind me trying to tackle this one…I was born and raised Catholic, but I have gone through periods of doubt that may be of some use to you…

First of all, my doubts, of course were all initiated by the fact that my college education was scientific…to make a long story short here, I needed “proof”. I spent a number of years looking for the scientific proof of God’s existance, I never found it…

So where did my faith come from? There were a number of things that told me God was real… Yes, one is the Bible and I’ll tackle that later; but another, actually was science that gave me the inclination of God’s existance. I couldn’t accept that the vast and the complexities of all existance was a mere accident that Quantum Mechanics would tell you was possible. To me, something HAD to have been designed, because most “accidents” end in chaos and the there is too much order in the universe for things to have just happened. Another thing about science is this: mankind felt the need to develop a system of thought to explain nature and understand what occurs around mankind, why? Why was it so important to mankind to understand nature? We felt a need to seek out something greater than ourselves…why?

Secondly, how do you know faith isn’t gifted to you? Do you have faith that your boyfriend loves you? Did you have faith as a child that your parents would attempt to keep you safe? provide for you? educate you? One of the definition’s of faith is trust in a person or thing. For example, you have faith that a new day starts every 24 hours, right?

Third, faith is a difficult thing for even the most devout, because it involves trusting in something without proof and as human beings, we feel that things MUST be proven to us before we believe; which I believe is a product of man’s fallen state and the propogation of sin - i.e. why are human beings so untrusting? is it because of murders? lies? indfidelity? jealousy? etc.

Fourth, prayer is the direct result of having faith. LOL…this sounds like a cop-out, but prayer and faith have to be initiated together and I’ll be utterly honest - I struggle with prayer still to this day and it has a lot to do with the fact that I feel like I’m incapable of approaching God in His magnificence… So, I couldn’t really help you here other than work on faith and prayer together.

The Bible: Recently, I went to a class that our parish priest taught a class titled “Where did the Bible come from?” Our priest started off with the simple explanation that we Catholics wrote it. It is a compilation of stories that people wanted to report. How do we know that news stories today are authentic? We tend to trust that people want to inform us of the happenings in the world and that’s really how we should treat the Bible - a report of the world’s happenings when Jesus was on earth and the stories of our Jewish bretheren before Jesus’ birth on earth. What our priest also said, and I find this powerful, is that protestants and "bible christians are correct when they say, “The Bible is the truth!” He went on to explain that the best way to read the bible is to read it with every intention of falling in love with Jesus.

Finally, your concern about doubts is completely normal and already the truest expression of faith - i.e. you’re exploring. I’m going to quote something from the bulletin of my parish last week, because I think it says a lot. “Sometimes it is easy to forget that God loves us. His love is unconditional and complete. It cannot be greater.
But do we really believe this? When life is difficult, when families fight, when our health gets bad, when we experience misfortune or disappointment, when we lose our jobs, or find it difficult to make ends meet, it is easy to become depressed and to feel like maybe there isn’t even a God who cares about us. Somehow, however, people of faith always find their way back to His open arms and his warmth and love.”

I hope this all helps and I’m sorry for being so wordy…lol

SG

 

[I_A]

johncwright.livejournal.com/59241.html

 

[VociMike]

I overcame my final doubts because of butterflies. There is no good atheistic explanation for butterflies, no matter what they say. After that I crossed a threshold of sorts where before I didn’t see God anywhere, but after I saw (and see) Him everywhere. Same eyes, same world, same people, but a new perception. It’s amazing what was always in front of you when the scales fall from your eyes.

 

[dafalax]

Hello all. My boyfriend is Catholic, so that has what’s led me here in particular. I’ve certainly learned a lot about Catholicism and I appreciate all the Catholic teachings that have made my boyfriend into the loving, selfless person that he is. He has been so helpful in encouraging me to keep asking questions without pushing. I find I agree with so many things Catholics teach on the moral level, and feel I could believe in many more if I truly believed in God’s existence.

But there’s the problem. How can one be convinced of God’s existence when everything in her upbringing tells her this a load of baloney? Where does faith come from if it isn’t gifted to you as a child? I’ve tried to pray a little but I feel mostly like I’m talking to myself.

I am not looking for intellectual arguments here; I’ve seen enough. I know the major ones and find them convincing, just not compellingly so. In any case, they don’t necessarily apply to the exact Christian concept of God. What I’d like to see are stories from people who’ve come the same way, if there are any here. How did you overcome doubts and prejudices about Christianity? How did you come to accept the Bible and Church as the real deal?

I know there will probably be some people who are not converts posting on this thread and trying to answer, and I’m okay with that, but please really think your comments through. It’s not enough to tell someone who has never been encouraged to believe that the Bible is true because the Catholic Church says so. I also tend to take things personally…. So be nice if at all possible….

QUOTE]
Oh! I think i understand a lot about where you are coming from! Four years ago i was living a very secular life working in a porn store, marching in gay pride parades, and believing that abortion was woman’s best friend. Then i started dating a Catholic boy who was not living his faith the way he should have (hello, he thought i was dateable!), but who had witnessed a miracle when he was 13 years old. His faith was unshakeable, and it had been his mother’s conversion to Catholicism and their immersion in the Catholic lifestyle that led God to grace them with seeing actual miracles. This nice Catholic boy, his mother, and his sister had all stopped practicing the faith over time (teenage years in public schools can take their toll), but they all still believed. Well, after we had dated awhile, i knew we were going to get married and although i believed my beloved had really witnessed a miracle, i didn’t understand how the Catholic faith could be the one true Church established by God. Contraception made too much sense to me at that time. I also knew, however, that my beloved and i would never have the kind of relationship i wanted if we were not united in our spiritual life. Even though all of his friends ridiculed the Church, he would not say the Church was wrong on any of her teachings, so i knew i would have to be the one to change. I said a prayer to God very respectfully explaining how i didn’t understand how any of the teachings of the Church could be true and that i was going to start reading books about Catholicism and if it was the real deal, please open my eyes that i may have faith. After about three months of study, i was ready to join the Church.
When you don’t believe in God, you close yourself off to so many gifts and graces. When you open yourself up to Him, He can work wonders. In your journey to faith, be completely open to Him. Be willing to go where He is leading you even if it means you have to completely change your life and your family and friends ridicule or abandon you. I still have some friends i am a closet Catholic to, and none of my high school friends and i are as close as we used to be.
Try reading the Handbook of Christian Apologetics by Peter Kreeft and Tacelli. It has wonderful logical arguments for the existence of God and Jesus Christ being the Saviour of mankind. Never be afraid to ask questions. Jesus is the truth and there is a good answer for all of His teachings. I even understand why homosexual acts are wrong now.
God will answer your questions and satisfy your intellect. Faith will nourish your soul.
Faith can be supported by evidence and with logical arguments, but only when you stop REQUIRING God to furnish you with proof for every little thing will you know you truly have it. When you know there is probably a good answer out there for the mysteries of faith, but you don’t need it right now, then you have faith.
Anyway, your family is at a decided disadvantage when it comes to God because they are limited by science. Just because you can’t prove His existence in a laboratory doesn’t mean He’s not there and anyone who argues otherwise is committing a logical fallacy. The best they can say is they don’t know. God bless you on your journey!

 

[Jessamy]

Secondly, how do you know faith isn’t gifted to you? Do you have faith that your boyfriend loves you? Did you have faith as a child that your parents would attempt to keep you safe? provide for you? educate you? One of the definition’s of faith is trust in a person or thing. For example, you have faith that a new day starts every 24 hours, right?

Third, faith is a difficult thing for even the most devout, because it involves trusting in something without proof and as human beings, we feel that things MUST be proven to us before we believe; which I believe is a product of man’s fallen state and the propogation of sin - i.e. why are human beings so untrusting? is it because of murders? lies? indfidelity? jealousy? etc.

First of all, thanks for the response. I appreciate your sincerity. On the otherhand, the faith that you speak of in the first paragraph is the kind that comes from direct observation. I have faith in my parents, my boyfriend, and the coming of a new day from direct experience. They have all proven to me that what I know about them is real.

From where should I find faith in God? On the surface it doesn’t seem that He has done anything for me. The kind parents I have, meeting my boyfriend, and the high standard of living I enjoy, could in the athiestic view all be attributed to chance and the intelligence of my parents. Asking about my faith in God is a little like asking whether I have faith in the Easter Bunny. Haven’t seen either of them. For all I know, they are the same person. Of course the difference is that I’m not on a forum discussing the exisistence of the Easter Bunny… I’m pretty sure everyone agreees that he/she is not real.

In your second paragraph, you’ve touched on what I am getting at. There is no complete proof for God. No one told me he was real growing up. Why should I believe you over my parents?

The Bible: Recently, I went to a class that our parish priest taught a class titled “Where did the Bible come from?” Our priest started off with the simple explanation that we Catholics wrote it. It is a compilation of stories that people wanted to report. How do we know that news stories today are authentic? We tend to trust that people want to inform us of the happenings in the world and that’s really how we should treat the Bible - a report of the world’s happenings when Jesus was on earth and the stories of our Jewish bretheren before Jesus’ birth on earth. What our priest also said, and I find this powerful, is that protestants and "bible christians are correct when they say, “The Bible is the truth!” He went on to explain that the best way to read the bible is to read it with every intention of falling in love with Jesus

As for your comments on the Bible… I find this the least convincing part of your argument. Should we also trust that Greek mythology is the truth? What about the Koran, or texts from other religions? Some people write fiction they never meant to be passed off as the truth… but they don’t always specifically say that it is fiction. Some people fervently believe something is true even if it isn’t.

As for the news stories today, these are events that can be verified again through direct observation or by speaking with enough witnesses who tell the same story. I can’t confirm with the Gospel writers, and from my research it seems that there is an utter lack of sources which validate in any way the miraculous claims in the Bible. You’d think that people who witnessed miracles would be writing letters to their friends about them or detailing their stories in some other lasting fashion.

It also seems that many doubt the Bible was even written during the lifetimes of the apostles, despite the traditional author assignments. If this were true, all the stories might be exaggerations or legends.

Miraculous claims require solid evidence. I’m not saying I know for a fact the Bible is false because I certainly don’t. But there is so much controversy surrounding it that I haven’t yet found it helpful at all.

I hope this all helps and I’m sorry for being so wordy…lol

Nothing wrong with wordiness… I do that well myself. It’s a complex issue, thus it requires a lot of words.

 

[Jessamy]

johncwright.livejournal.com/59241.html

Have to get back to you on this one… I really should study since finals are coming up. But I’m not ignoring your suggestion to read this.

I overcame my final doubts because of butterflies. There is no good atheistic explanation for butterflies, no matter what they say. After that I crossed a threshold of sorts where before I didn’t see God anywhere, but after I saw (and see) Him everywhere. Same eyes, same world, same people, but a new perception. It’s amazing what was always in front of you when the scales fall from your eyes.

This may be why I’m here. I worry about whether there’s a “real” reason for said butterflies though, such as wouldn’t it be nice if I had the same faith as my boyfriend? And doesn’t everyone question what their parents tell them is true?

 

[Gilbert_Keith]

The decision you are about to make will rest upon whether you see more than one possible way to the truth. You have been trained to think like an atheist. This will be hard to shake off at first. However, it’s clear you are not completely satisfied with atheism any more than you are completely satisfied with Christianity.

My recommendation, for what it is worth, is to yield the requirement of your brain to the need of your heart. Do you want to believe in God? If you do, believe. Only then will you begin to hear God’s voice and feel God’s presence in those whisperings and signs that have nothing to do with the grammar of the sentence you are now reading. If you don’t want to believe, your desire *not *to believe simply means you have a longer road to travel than others may have. It doesn’t mean you won’t eventually get to the same place.

Be patient.

Enjoy the path to Rome.

 

[Riley259]

A little over 7 years ago I too was on the brink of atheism. The difference is that I was raised Catholic and over a period of 20 plus years I just gradually removed myself from the faith until I didn’t believe. At the point when I decided that I must be an atheist, something (grace) kept nagging at me and over a period of two months just got stronger and stronger until I couldn’t ignore it anymore. Then I decided that I had to really research and investigate the claims of believers because if I didn’t then I felt I wouldn’t be totally objective about my lack of belief. Over a period of several months I did research many things starting with the basic question of whether God actually exists. Like you, I found much compelling evidence for His existance but my journey continued and my next phase was trying to decide how God manifested Himself amid the confusing multitudes of religions today. The only thing I felt that I could do at that point was objectively investigate all the major (and even many minor and esoteric) religions to see which one made the most sense and it was clear that Christianity was the answer. From there it wasn’t too difficult to see that Catholicism was the true apostalic faith. Since that time, the Spirit has touched me with grace and my faith gets stronger despite the many difficulties it has presented in my life (including my wife almost leaving me because of my faith and the morals and values associated with it). It’s not easy being a faithful Christian (especially Catholic) in the world today - you’ll experience some suffering and will be tested but the joy that it brings makes it all worth it. Trust in God and He will see you through this crossroads that you are at. You’re on a journey and it will lead you to God. By all means start to pray and He will answer you, probably in the most unexpected ways. My advice is to spend some time in front of the Blessed Sacrament and let God touch your heart - you won’t be disappointed. I’ll pray for you.

 

[Riley259]

johncwright.livejournal.com/59241.html

Beautiful testimony.

 

[Seeks_God]

On the otherhand, the faith that you speak of in the first paragraph is the kind that comes from direct observation. I have faith in my parents, my boyfriend, and the coming of a new day from direct experience. They have all proven to me that what I know about them is real. From where should I find faith in God? On the surface it doesn’t seem that He has done anything for me. The kind parents I have, meeting my boyfriend, and the high standard of living I enjoy, could in the athiestic view all be attributed to chance and the intelligence of my parents.

See, this is where things would get tricky… Atheists, 99.9% of the time want to rely on science for 100% proof of anything; yet science is not complete - it is a tool and allows for error. For every scientific proof that something is real, there is also a scientific error that it may not exist. That is the flaw of science. Because of this possibility of error, science is not a complete way to understand the world around us. The major point I was getting at is that you already have faith in some things that you cannot prove exists, like your parents. I know this seems somewhat too obvious, but do you consider the things around you real? Of course you do, but science dictates that there is a possiblity they are not real. This really is the essence of faith…

You also point out the atheistic point of view of chance… Is it by chance that mankind has this uncanny desire to create things? Why is it we build phenomenal feats of engineering? Why do we build upon our knowledge trying to seek a greater understanding of the universe? Chance would dictate that we can not alter our futures, yet humanity proves time and time again that we are capable of these things.

There is no complete proof for God. No one told me he was real growing up. Why should I believe you over my parents?

You shouldn’t…lol… But it’s interesting, I had a conversation with my grandma today about faith and the concept of a journey came up, and I think that everyone has a different position along that path. I do know this, however, taking each thing we are talking about and trying to examine it part by part is going to constantly leave an incomplete story… I think you have to look at the totality, but it all together.

As for your comments on the Bible… I find this the least convincing part of your argument. Should we also trust that Greek mythology is the truth? What about the Koran, or texts from other religions? Some people write fiction they never meant to be passed off as the truth… but they don’t always specifically say that it is fiction. Some people fervently believe something is true even if it isn’t.

Well, I was being figurative…
Consider it this way: What do you know about your grandparents? their grandparents? and theirs? Where do these stories come from? Can you verify those stories with people now? You can’t, but you accept the truth about your origins, right?

I also think that if you’ve done the research about all the logical arguments - i.e. Apologetics, reading various pros and cons of the issue, etc. - then you have to look at things in the totality, again.

I know this is a weak argument, but I know that I went through similar things and the attempt to rationalize the irrational is a never ending battle…

I’m not saying I know for a fact the Bible is false because I certainly don’t. But there is so much controversy surrounding it that I haven’t yet found it helpful at all.

I think controversy is a direct result of human affairs. Which political party are you a member of? See my point? Opposition has always existed in human history, and it’s not just irony that this opposition makes its appearance in the Garden of Eden. I certainly think that there was an effort to disprove Jesus; but honestly when you consider one side of the opposition is to disprove and destroy the other, and the side that is concerned about forgiving the destructive side, including them as equals, offer love, and wanting to share the same good benefits that they hope to gain then you must ask: What’s the truth?

SG

 

[rpp]

I am a former atheist.

I became an atheist between the ages of 19 and 20. It was not an overnight thing. A good deal led me to that conclusion, not the least was “science-ism” the tacit belief promoted by the world that science does or will have the answer to everything.

Fast forward 22 years. It is 2003. I am now a middle-aged man set in my ways. I have utterly embraqced the atheist life. I hate all religion. I actively support the many and mostly successful efforts to suppress it. I criticize people for saying “Merry Christmas”, donate money to the ACLU and embrace a liberal politics.

I knew that, as an atheist, I was emotionally and intellectually superior to anyone who professed a belief in God, even the New Age weirdoes. Why? Because I was emotionally confident enough in myself not to need the “crutch” of a made God to protect me from an equally made up “boogey-man” or devil. Intellectually superior because I figured this out on my own.

Then in October of 2003 while on an automobile trip, I stopped at the scene of a terrible car accident to render first. The sole victim, a young woman, died in my arms after a long, exhausting and rather gory fight to save her life. It tore me up emotionally. For the next 12 days a thought was stuck in my head, “What a stupid, empty death. What a stupid, empty death.” Endlessly running in my mind, intruding on my thoughts this sentence was.

Then almost two weeks later, I traveled to meet the young woman’s family to help them to understand what happened to their daughter. After spending the day with them, I returned to my hotel room. Again the thought, “What a stupid, empty death.” came to me. I said it aloud. A woman turned on a light behind me, come up from behind and said, “No death is empty if it brings someone closer to God.”

I turned to see who was talking but I was in my hotel room alone. The chair I was sitting in was against the wall so no one could come from behind. The light was there, but there was no source for the light. (Kind of hard to explain.)

Suddenly, I could not breathe. Then equally suddenly, it was two weeks ago. I was reliving the preceding two weeks. But only sort of. While the experience was in real time, and I was inside my head, I was only an observer. I could see my thoughts of the earlier me, but I could not influence anything. I knew what was going to happen, but I could do nothing except watch. Yet with all this, I also knew I was back in my hotel room and that time was not passing there.

I became acutely aware of my sins; my depravity. For the next two weeks I watched myself. It was not like a dream, it was real. Everything happened in real time. It took two weeks to experience those two weeks. Yet only a small interval of time, if any, passed in my hotel room.

Long before this was over, I realized I was being *shown *this. I knew I had been wrong all my life and that God is real.

The experience concluded with the unknown woman speaking her words to me. “No death is empty if it brings someone closer to God.”

I had found God! But which one. Allah? The Christian God? Buddha? Which one. I realized I needed to look at this young lady and her family. God did this to get my attention. If He was Allah and Mohammed his true prophet, these people would be Moslems. If he wanted me to be Hindu, they would be Hindu. The family was Catholic.

Being a Saturday night, I attended Mass the next day. After returning home, I entered the 17-month RCIA program at my nearby Parish and was confirmed at Easter of 2005.

Now I attend daily Mass, pray the Divine Office and the rosary. My Catholic faith is now the center of my life. One by one, I have had to reject all the liberal causes and ideals I supported because it is clear they are utterly incompatible with true Christian morality.

I look back at 20+ years as an atheist and feel both regret at what I have done and a profound sense of wonder and supreme gratitude for God’s mercy in bringing me to His one true Church.

I have written a book, tentaively titled Enemy of Daylight which discusses how I became and atheist and I provide more detail on the event I described here. It should be available in Febuary, 2007.

 

[Steadfast_love]

Jessamy,

I was an agnostic raised in a Presbyterian family. Like you, I did lots of studying but I could never close the gap between faith and reason. No matter how much I tried, there was always room for doubt.

I had something similar to the butterfly experience. I made a “deal” with God. I promised to never ever ask for another proof of his existence in exchange for proof of his existence. We both kept our ends of the bargain.

Upon opening my eyes, I received a vision of a blood red cross glowing in the darkness which was very uplifting – for the 0.5 seconds it took me to realize that it was an optical illusion. Afterwords I was left with the same problem I started with: a proof of God that could be explained away.

In retrospect, I think that all proofs of God are left open like that on purpose. It’s a feature not a bug. If God got me in a logical choke hold of course I would do whatever he wanted. But instead he’s given everyone (through doubt) a freedom to choose.

There are only two steps to having faith and I wonder… are you confusing them?

1. You need to receive “The Faith.” I think you have received The Faith already since you know about the Catholic Church and you’ve read the Gospels. There’s no need to wait to receive it you already have it.
2. You choose to “have faith” (in God.) This is your choice. You don’t need a special feelings or the facts to back it up. It’s your life and you get to choose in whom you place your trust. Choosing to pray even when you feel silly is an example of having faith by the way.

 

[JezuUfamTobie]

I was an atheist and I converted to Catholicism not even three years ago.

A book that helped me a lot was The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel. This is not a Catholic book, but it was a catalyst for my conversion.

But no amount of facts will cause conversion. It is a change of heart brought about by a decision, and the whispers of the Holy Spirit.

How did I overcome doubts and prejudices? Well, I looked around me. All the other atheist friends I had were miserable deep down inside. Even the ones that seemed happy on the surface showed their frustration by picking on others (usually behind their backs) in order to elevate themselves. Christians aren’t perfect either, but the most loving, earnest Christians are usually much closer to Perfection than souls who have no great truths to guide them through life.

I guess I also worked my way backward through morality, in part. God gave me the gift of a fairly strong conscience, even when I didn’t believe in Him. I knew, for example, that pornography was gravely disordered, and that I would never want to marry a man who engaged in such things. But nearly all the nice men who didn’t engage in such things also believed in God… coincidence? From there my soul grew a distaste for slander, lying, the belief that smart & beautiful people are worth more than retarded & ugly people etc. My love for God (who is all-good and all-loving) grew out of my increasing horror of all things evil.

But I think the kicker for me was that life just isn’t worthwhile without God. Without Him, suffering is either meaningless or has only the shallow meaning that existentialists and secular humanists attribute to it, romanticizing–or even worshipping–the human condition. I don’t think I’d make it through another day if that’s all there were to life!

 

[IanS]

I was brought up in a very secular household and so was my wife. We both we baptized into the Catholic Church about eight years ago.

When you are told by your parents that you are nothing more than a glorified animal with a more advanced nervous system, that’s exactly what you turn into and learn to live by pure instinct. I never really allowed myself attach to anyone growing up. So I guess I didn’t really care if I ever saw them again. The words, “I love you” were basically forbidden in my house as a sign of weakness and dependence on others.

As far as fear of death, there were a couple times in my life where I was actually borderline suicidal. When you are in despair sometimes you just want to get things over with, because you just don’t see any point in anything. I chose to try and kill myself slowly with partying, smoking, booze, drugs and sleeping with any girl that had a heartbeat. If you’re gonna just die anyway, why not have some fun? I also became a masochist and engaged in self mutilation. I used to love taking a BIC lighter and lighting it upside down until the top was red hot, then I would burn myself with it (usually 2nd to 3rd degree) just because I liked the rush it gave me. Even an atheist has to be a slave to some kind of god(s), mine were “pleasure and pain”.

Satan’s greatest wish that we all turn out like I was. He wants everyone to be an atheist, because then he doesn’t have to worry about a thing. Atheists are totally in his grip and don’t even realize it. I’m sure he thinks that’s just hilarious, because even the most horrible Satanists still believe in God. In fact as you can probably tell by my comments, I started to believe in the reality of Satan even before God, and it was that belief that led me to Christ.

I just feel like Jesus had his finger on me from day one and would lift it from me until I finally gave in. I truly feel “He chose me”, and no matter how much I tried to ignore Him or run away He just wouldn’t give up. There was always this inner-turmoil inside of me that knew there must be much more to existence than what we know with our senses.

For instance, I remember when I was in eighth grade my Science teacher telling us matter cannot be created or destroyed, only changed from one form to another. Well, if that’s the case then where the heck did it all come from? At one point and time something had to be made out of nothing in some way. It’s illogical to think anything else.

Also how can things as complicated at the order of the universe, DNA or human thought be some sort of cosmic mishap. For instance, lets say I were to take a clock, completely disassemble it, and bury it in the ground . One hundred years later someone digs it up. What do you think the chances are they will find a perfectly assembled running clock? How about nil. There is now way a clock could form itself by chance, right? If so what is the probability? Yet the structure of something a simple as a leaf on any plant is 1000 times more complicated than a clock and yet is supposed to be some accident that happened by chance? Come on! The probabilities are insurmountable.

These sorts of thoughts are what converted my brain. My heart took a little while longer. That took God stepping in and putting me with the woman who is now my wife 12 years ago. When we met we were both at real low points in our lives. We are real living proof that God can form something out of nothing because the chances of us making it were about as good as the buried clock.

We discovered together that we had the same inner-turmoil and longing for holiness and truth. Neither of us had ever been baptized but we decided together to stop ignoring the whisper of the Holy Spirit and give in.

Now you are probably thinking, “Why Catholic”? Seems like a pretty far jump. For my wife, her family had historically been Catholic, and she had always respected that sacredness and history of the Church. For me I guess I decided if I was going to accept all this, I wanted the deluxe package. If I wanted Christ, I wanted ALL of Him and everything He left for us. I wanted His body, blood, soul, and divinity flowing through me. I wanted his mother to be my spiritual mother. I wanted the Apostles and their successors, the Saints, and the Martyrs. I wasn’t going to settle for any watered down no-frills, mile wide and an inch deep faith. So I just jumped right in.

About eight years ago my wife and I were baptized into the Church together at the Easter Vigil. One of the most blessed things for me was knowing the horrible way I lived before then would be completely washed away through my baptism. Even all temporal punishment. It was truly a new start for me. I’m not saying it’s always been easy for me, but I can feel my roots of faith growing deeper every day. However, I still feel like I have a lot of make-up work to do.

 

[ribozyme]

See, this is where things would get tricky… Atheists, 99.9% of the time want to rely on science for 100% proof of anything; yet science is not complete - it is a tool and allows for error. For every scientific proof that something is real, there is also a scientific error that it may not exist. That is the flaw of science. Because of this possibility of error, science is not a complete way to understand the world around us. The major point I was getting at is that you already have faith in some things that you cannot prove exists, like your parents. I know this seems somewhat too obvious, but do you consider the things around you real? Of course you do, but science dictates that there is a possiblity they are not real. This really is the essence of faith…

and

First of all, my doubts, of course were all initiated by the fact that my college education was scientific…to make a long story short here, I needed “proof”. I spent a number of years looking for the scientific proof of God’s existance, I never found it…

No Humean empiricist would assert the existence of “scientific proof”.

 

[ribozyme]

My own story of disbelief is here: iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?t=163978

To avoid the potential for one to use science to support a preconceived opinion, a hypothesis has to be amendable to falsification by experimentation. For example, one cannot test transubstantiation by breaking down the wafer after the priest says the “incantation” and comparing it with a control wafer using analytical techniques like chromatography. Further, another issue is prayer. The notion that God listens and responds to our prayers cannot be falsified. If one did not receive what they prayed for, one could respond by saying “that this is not part of God’s plan for you” or some similar platitude. Thus, this should encourage one to use existing data or conduct an experiment to see if the observations are congruent with a hypothesis.

Another error, and I will admit I, too, have committed this sin, is using science to satisfy our emotional needs. For example, do you consider that most religious converts rationally thought out their choice, or they converted during an altar call at a church? This should point out why dogma and scientific inquiry are diametrically opposite. I must say that I almost converted to Catholicism for reasons that I will discuss later. In addition, before considering conversion I did not find Christianity (or any religion that postulated the existence of a benevolent God) palatable because of the existence of evil. After I became frustrated with our current understanding of the origin of life after studying some papers about various origin of life hypotheses (especially RNA World hypothesis), I decided to consider supernatural intervention. My motivations for this is not rational but it satisfied some of my personal desires as expressed here http://iidb.org/vbb/showthread.php?p=3310092:

"I have made it clear that my contemplation is not rooted in reason. I thought of accepting the existence of a personal God because I am human: I desire to be loved. When I initially did some research on the origin of life, I did not attempt to pursue a religious agenda, but I was merely curious. After some time I acknowledged the difficulties of various origin of life hypotheses pointed by the scientists I have mentioned above (Joyce, Orgel, and Shapiro). During this time, I was not satisfied with “I do not know” for an answer, and a part of me wanted to satisfy some need to know that my life has a purpose and that an all-powerful deity loves me. I thought acknowledging that God did it would satisfy this desire.

Why Roman Catholicism? This remark will not directly answer the question, but I think one reason is that I live in the United States where Christianity is prevalent. Another facet (regarding to Catholicism not Christianity) is mentioned in a letter below concerns fundamentalism and I think Catholics are not fundamentalists who believe in a literal Bible and YECism. My previous comments only superficially answered the question, but I will mention my primary reason next. Also I do think Catholicism appeals to my desire to “connect” with the divine. An obvious example that makes Catholicism unique (this statement could be falsified if the Anglicans believe in the Real Presence too) is transubstantiation. Who doesn’t want to personally experience the presence of the risen Christ?"

 

[ribozyme]

Why Roman Catholicism? This remark will not directly answer the question, but I think one reason is that I live in the United States where Christianity is prevalent. Another facet (regarding to Catholicism not Christianity) is mentioned in a letter below concerns fundamentalism and I think Catholics are not fundamentalists who believe in a literal Bible and YECism. My previous comments only superficially answered the question, but I will mention my primary reason next. Also I do think Catholicism appeals to my desire to “connect” with the divine. An obvious example that makes Catholicism unique (this statement could be falsified if the Anglicans believe in the Real Presence too) is transubstantiation. Who doesn’t want to personally experience the presence of the risen Christ?"

And I admitted my errors in a personal communication to Professor Robert Shapiro (1/24/06):

Quote:
"

Dear Dr. Robert Shapiro,

Well, I am an inquisitive sixteen year old who has an interest in the origin of life and biochemistry. Of course, this would mean being exposed to such hypotheses like the RNA World, which many workers in the field know you have contempt for. My exposure to the literature (mainly from the internet) and critiques of the RNA World has led me to doubt whether a naturalistic origin of life has taken place. Furthermore, this has made me consider Catholicism as I loathe other branches of Christianity because adherence to fundamentalist tenets [usually leads to the] lack of tolerance of other sects. Moreover, the case against a naturalistic origin of life is an extremely weak argument for the existence of a benevolent God mainly because it does not rely on independent evidence but on the faults of another competing theory: the naturalistic origin of life. In addition, some aspects of reality are not concomitant to such as worldview, particularly because of the problem of evil; this problem is further compounded by proposing the existence of a triune entity who died for our sins. Well, a “critical analysis” (a favorite choice of words you use in the titles of your publications) of Christianity has made me reconvert into an agnostic instead of a potential catechumen. Thus skepticism should be encouraged in all facets of epistemology whether considering religion or scientific hypotheses as I applied this in considering the RNA World but I almost committed the fallacy of relaxing this skepticism when I was considering religion. Enough about a critical analysis of the dogma of Christianity since this is not germane to the topic of this communication but rather a critical analysis of the RNA World scenario."

Shapiro replied (1/25/06):

RBH admonished me that I cannot quote Shapiro without his explicit permission. He says that like me is an agnostic and a skeptic like myself and he tries to be civil and polite to those who are not. He does not view the RNA World or its proponents in contempt.

I must add that in Shapiro’s response, I think he misinterpreted what I meant when I said, “I loathe other branches of Christianity.” I do not loathe Christianity itself as I personally respect some of its practitioners, but I strongly disagree with its core tenets. Nevertheless, I loathe fundamentalist Christianity (which would explain one reason why I was attracted to Roman Catholic Christianity). To understand my sentiments, I will ask what was responsible for young-Earth creationism and the Left Behind series? Because of this I cannot imagine myself as a fundamentalist.

"I must apologize if I misrepresented your attitude towards RNA World proponents as I meant to say that you find the notion of the prebiotic Earth being a factory for ribonucleotides (or another monomer of a nucleic acid like TNA) absurd. By the way, how could anyone have contempt for a brilliant chemist like Leslie Orgel. I bet he could give a more convincing critique of his scenario than my creationist friends. "

Shapiro has written this quote previously, which highlights humanity’s natural proclivity to believe in religious dogmas:

“Mythical accounts and religious beliefs give humans enormous comfort in the face of adversity. To be effective, however, they must be held firmly, and not the subject to doubt. Unresolved questions, unclear answers, and changing views work in the opposite direction. They raise anxiety in us about our safety and destiny. For many of us, any firm answer which conveys a sense of purpose is better than no answer at all.” (Shapiro, Robert. Origins: A Skeptic’s Guide to the Creation of Life on Earth. New York, New York: Summit Books, 1986. Pg. 35.)

.

 

[ribozyme]

In summary, I not only wanted an answer to the enigma of the origin of life, but I also wanted to satisfy my personal desire when I decided to pursue Catholicism. However, this was not my initial intention, as I was merely a curious student initially, and I initially did not intend to use science to satisfy my emotional needs. I then decided to read Shapiro’s book to get an in-depth technical review for the origin of life as I have previously read his cytosine paper and I perceived it a masterpiece as it showed he went above and beyond (he is a chemist and he delved into geology literature). I was disappointed with Shapiro’s book with this facet (it was an excellent layman summary of various origin of life hypothesis nevertheless), but Shapiro’s book did not disappoint me. His book has granted me an appreciation of proper science, in contrast to dogma. Also, and most importantly, that book made me realized my sins: I was using science to satisfy my emotional needs, and I have departed from my original intention: to search for truth. Because of this epiphany, I was now aware of my initial reason of why I doubted the existence of the Christian God: the problem of evil. I have subconsciously tried circumventing this by trying to convince myself that life was too complex to form by “prebiotic chemistry” thus requiring the action of an intelligent designer. After reading that book, I could not imagine myself worshipping the Christian God, which was a mortal blow to my nascent faith. I told Professor Shapiro in an e-mail correspondence this and I thanked him for writing Origins: A Skeptic’s Guide to the Creation of Life on Earth as that book gave me an appreciation for skepticism. I also perceive Professor Shapiro as some sort of hero because of his impact in my life.

Finally, I must add that being a skeptic is not fun. I have rejected the personal comfort derived from a strong faith. Nevertheless, one must sacrifice this in order to pursue truth. Oh well, I listen to Linkin Park instead of hymns on Sunday

 

[Riley259]

In summary, I not only wanted an answer to the enigma of the origin of life, but I also wanted to satisfy my personal desire when I decided to pursue Catholicism. However, this was not my initial intention, as I was merely a curious student initially, and I initially did not intend to use science to satisfy my emotional needs. I then decided to read Shapiro’s book to get an in-depth technical review for the origin of life as I have previously read his cytosine paper and I perceived it a masterpiece as it showed he went above and beyond (he is a chemist and he delved into geology literature). I was disappointed with Shapiro’s book with this facet (it was an excellent layman summary of various origin of life hypothesis nevertheless), but Shapiro’s book did not disappoint me. His book has granted me an appreciation of proper science, in contrast to dogma. Also, and most importantly, that book made me realized my sins: I was using science to satisfy my emotional needs, and I have departed from my original intention: to search for truth. Because of this epiphany, I was now aware of my initial reason of why I doubted the existence of the Christian God: the problem of evil. I have subconsciously tried circumventing this by trying to convince myself that life was too complex to form by “prebiotic chemistry” thus requiring the action of an intelligent designer. After reading that book, I could not imagine myself worshipping the Christian God, which was a mortal blow to my nascent faith. I told Professor Shapiro in an e-mail correspondence this and I thanked him for writing Origins: A Skeptic’s Guide to the Creation of Life on Earth as that book gave me an appreciation for skepticism. I also perceive Professor Shapiro as some sort of hero because of his impact in my life.

Finally, I must add that being a skeptic is not fun. I have rejected the personal comfort derived from a strong faith. Nevertheless, one must sacrifice this in order to pursue truth. Oh well, I listen to Linkin Park instead of hymns on Sunday

Oh, my - yours is a sad tale indeed. The problem of evil and suffering is confidently answered in alot of sources. I would suggest starting with C.S. Lewis’s “The Problem of Pain”. Give yourself a few years to mature and appreciate all sides of life and one day I’ll bet you’ll be surprised when God comes knocking again loud and clear. I’ll pray for you.