Any Episcopalians here?

[CMatt25]

Who was that who quoted Paul’s position as a reason to bar women’s ordination? Could you cite the post?

(I hope you’re not referring to CMatt 'cause clearly he’s on your side of this issue and NO CATHOLIC who’s knowledgeable about his faith would ever use that verse as a reason to object to priestesses.)

I’m not sure who CARV is referring to. But I think I may have quoted Paul’s objection to women speaking in church as just one of many examples of something Scriptural which we no longer follow or take literally. Along with many not believing in a 144 hour creation from start to finish completed with man and woman in the last 24 hrs of an evening and morning in those 144 hrs. And so forth.

 

[PRmerger]

PR, I’m mainly interested in discerning and pursuing the few dogmas or doctrines I know Christ actually spelled out plainly for us. Peace.

Do you accept the one he said about not divorcing and re-marrying?

 

[PRmerger]

I just saw this. Apology accepted PR and I apologize to anyone I have ever offended as well. Sometimes stuff happens and occasionally we may fail no matter how much we strive to do otherwise. Everyone walkin the earth today is human afterall. Peace.

Peace it is, then! :aok:

 

[CMatt25]

I still say you’re in the wrong church—you’re a closet Episcopalian, Matt, time to convert

Anyone who finds Bishop Robinson inspiring or even sane definitely is an Episcopalian at heart, no doubt whatsoever.

I just might add that I also have found a Disciples of Christ minister I once heard inspirational when he spoke of the poor and peace issues as being instrumental ones in following Christ. I don’t really care who says it. I sometimes just find certain things inspirational to me. Peace everyone.

 

[CMatt25]

Do you accept the one he said about not divorcing and re-marrying?

Here’s what I accept. Christ in Matthew allowed for divorce in cases of unfaithfulness. And reason tells me abuse and abandonment are also possible reasons to consider in the reality of an imperfect world. And divorce is always unfortunate and tragic. But in the reality of an imperfect world some marriages are known to die for various reasons. Continung them could even perhaps be more destructive to the welfare of the persons involved. And reason tells me 2nd time unions could possibly result in a greater witness to God. And what I also find interesting is how the CC can be a participant in blessing a marriage and the couple could be married for many yrs with several children resulting from the marriage. But then yrs later the same church can pronounce an annulment as if no marriage ever existed.

 

[PRmerger]

Here’s what I accept. Christ in Matthew allowed for divorce in cases of unfaithfulness. And reason tells me abuse and abandonment are also possible reasons to consider in the reality of an imperfect world.

The word used in Greek is *“porneia” *which does not mean unfaithfulness. It means “unlawful union”. The correct Greek is *“moichatai” *for adultery, which was not used in Matthew.

And reason tells you that, clearly, that would be absurd for Jesus to give permission for a couple to divorce for reasons of adultery. I can imagine a man wanting to divorce his wife “with permission from Jesus” would simply say, “Oh, Jesus said if I commit adultery I can divorce the old nag…so, here goes! Gotta get me and my mistress a hotel room and do this Scripturally!”

 

[Lapey]

Here’s what I accept. Christ in Matthew allowed for divorce in cases of unfaithfulness. And reason tells me abuse and abandonment are also possible reasons to consider in the reality of an imperfect world. And divorce is always unfortunate and tragic. But in the reality of an imperfect world some marriages are known to die for various reasons. Continung them could even perhaps be more destructive to the welfare of the persons involved. And reason tells me 2nd time unions could possibly result in a greater witness to God. And what I also find interesting is how the CC can be a participant in blessing a marriage and the couple could be married for many yrs with several children resulting from the marriage. But then yrs later the same church can pronounce an annulment as if no marriage ever existed.

Wow, this sounds quite modern!!!

 

[PRmerger]

And reason tells me 2nd time unions could possibly result in a greater witness to God.

But life and its natural consequences tells you that 2nd time unions fail miserably*. Could it be that when humanity follows its own rules and not the rules given to us for happiness–“whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery”–it leads to chaos and despair?

And what I also find interesting is how the CC can be a participant in blessing a marriage and the couple could be married for many yrs with several children resulting from the marriage. But then yrs later the same church can pronounce an annulment as if no marriage ever existed.

If there was a marriage, the CC has no power to “pronounce an annulment”.

 

[CMatt25]

Ok so when a spouse fornicates (Matt 5:32 and Matt19:9 in the Douay Rheims) with someone not their spouse, they are not being unfaithful and are not committing adultery. I sure wish now someone had told those Douay Rheims folk that fornication was not a cause for divorce so they hadn’t put that in there as words of Christ.

And ok then when the Church blesses a marriage and pronounces a husband and wife married, there’s a marriage. And annulment decrees pronouncing a marriage as having never existed are unnecessary. Since obviously one had existed or else the Church would not have blessed the marriage in the first place. So might as well do away with the ecclesial tribunals and the entire annulment process in that case. Otherwise the Church was wrong in the first place in pronouncing them married in the eyes of God.

 

[GKC]

And to think I’ve spent all these yrs believing when a spouse fornicated (Matt 5:32 and Matt19:9 in the Douay Rheims) with someone not their spouse, they were being unfaithful and committing adultery. I sure wish now someone had told those Douay Rheims folk that fornication was not a cause for divorce so they hadn’t put that in there as words of Christ.

And ok then when the Church blesses a marriage and pronounces a husband and wife married, there’s a marriage. And annulment decrees pronouncing a marriage as having never existed are unnecessary. Since obviously one had existed or else the Church would not have blessed the marriage in the first place. So might as well do away with the ecclesial tribunals and the entire annulment process in that case. Otherwise the Church was wrong in the first place in pronouncing them married in the eyes of God.

Your concluding sentence is correct, but I don’t think you grasp the essence of a decree of nullity. A sacramentally valid marriage must meet certain conditions of form, matter, intent and minister. It’s possible for the Church, or even the participants, to be unaware of an impediment to the marriage, sacramentally, and when this is revealed, for the decree of nullity to be granted. Which declares that due to the revealed impediment, no valid marriage had taken place.

GKC

 

[CMatt25]

Your concluding sentence is correct, but I don’t think you grasp the essence of a decree of nullity A sacramentally valid marriage must meet certain condition of form, matter, intent and minister. It’s possible for the Church, or even the participants, to be unaware of an impediment to the marriage, sacramentally, and when this is revealed, for the decree of nullity to be granted.

GKC

Ok God would have known then but not the Church who alone speaks for God.

 

[GKC]

Ok God would have known then but not the Church who alone speaks for God.

Yes. The Church is not, in that sense, omniscient. She relies, in this sort of thing, partially on the information provided. This is one point in the old proclaiming of the banns, before a marriage; to reveal unknown impediments.

GKC

 

[Anna_Scott]

But life and its natural consequences tells you that 2nd time unions fail miserably*. Could it be that when humanity follows its own rules and not the rules given to us for happiness–“whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery”–it leads to chaos and despair?

If there was a marriage, the CC has no power to “pronounce an annulment”.

Hi, PR. Haven’t talked with you for awhile. I hope you don’t mind if I jump into this discussion about divorce and remarriage.

I’m sad to say that I have been twice married and twice divorced. Things became unbearable in my first marriage, and I moved out with my son, who was about 3 years old. I never dreamed the marriage would end in divorce. I thought separation might jolt my husband enough to go to counseling and work things out. Long story short, we divorced–I’m the one who filed.

Six and a half years later, I remarried. When I told my first husband that I was going to remarry; he broke into tears–which is not like him. I’d scarcely seen him shed a tear in all the years I’d known him. My second marriage lasted only 3 years. By the time I asked him to move out, I feared for my son’s safety and I feared for my life. He lied about so many things; I truly felt like I had exchanged vows with a “persona” he created.

Soon after I remarried, I began having dreams about my first husband. In every dream, I felt like I had betrayed him by remarrying. The dreams continued throughout the marriage and I was truly haunted by them.

After the second divorce, I wondered if there was any possibility of reconciling with my first husband; but he’d already met someone and three months later, he remarried. That turned out to be a nightmare for him; and he’s still in he marriage.

When I first heard about their problems, I started having dreams about him again. In some dreams, he would leave her and come back to me–but there was always turmoil in the dreams. And I started feeling guilty for dreaming that he left her for me. In one dream, I was walking through the halls of a hospital and found him there, very ill and alone. His wife had abandoned him. In that dream, I told him not to worry–that I would take care of him.

A few months back, I was having lunch with my son, who is now 22. We talked about the divorce between his dad and me, and about our disastrous second marriages. I told my son that I never stopped loving his dad. He said his dad feels the same way. Then my son said, “Mom, I think you and dad are each other’s one love.”

I am fighting tears as I write this. My son was right. We are each other’s one love. I should never have divorced him. I should had found a way to get through the rough times.

So, this is my confession. This is a story with an unhappy ending; and I have no idea how to make it right.

Anna

P.S. I do attend an Episcopal Church.

 

[CMatt25]

Yes. The Church is not, in that sense, omniscient. She relies, in this sort of thing, partially on the information provided. This is one point in the old proclaiming of the banns, before a marriage; to reveal unknown impediments.

GKC

I know. The Church only proclaims being omniscient on defined doctrine concerning faith and morals. I know that even made it easier for some to accept how Apostolic successors did not know any better in covering up child abuse for instance. It’s just certain faith and moral matters Apostolic successors are omniscient of.

 

[Lapey]

I know. The Church only proclaims being omniscient on defined doctrine concerning faith and morals. I know that even made it easier for some to accept how Apostolic successors did not know any better in covering up child abuse for instance. It’s just certain faith and moral matters Apostolic successors are omniscient of.

Sorry, my first statement was not charitable, true but not charitable; so I removed it.

You are ashamed of everything Catholic Christian except the name. I ask you as one of the others asked, why do you call yourself Catholic?

I shall keep you in my prayers!

 

[GKC]

I know. The Church only proclaims being omniscient on defined doctrine concerning faith and morals. I know that even made it easier for some to accept how Apostolic successors did not know any better in covering up child abuse for instance. It’s just certain faith and moral matters Apostolic successors are omniscient of.

Not to be argumentative, but I don’t think that the Church considers itself omniscient, even in that sense. Infallible, yes, in any given pronouncements that meet the definition . But omniscient would seem to me to preclude development of doctrine.

But this is not my area of expertise. Perhaps someone can comment.

GKC

 

[Lapey]

Hi, PR. Haven’t talked with you for awhile. I hope you don’t mind if I jump into this discussion about divorce and remarriage.

I’m sad to say that I have been twice married and twice divorced. Things became unbearable in my first marriage, and I moved out with my son, who was about 3 years old. I never dreamed the marriage would end in divorce. I thought separation might jolt my husband enough to go to counseling and work things out. Long story short, we divorced–I’m the one who filed.

Six and a half years later, I remarried. When I told my first husband that I was going to remarry; he broke into tears–which is not like him. I’d scarcely seen him shed a tear in all the years I’d known him. My second marriage lasted only 3 years. By the time I asked him to move out, I feared for my son’s safety and I feared for my life. He lied about so many things; I truly felt like I had exchanged vows with a “persona” he created.

Soon after I remarried, I began having dreams about my first husband. In every dream, I felt like I had betrayed him by remarrying. The dreams continued throughout the marriage and I was truly haunted by them.

After the second divorce, I wondered if there was any possibility of reconciling with my first husband; but he’d already met someone and three months later, he remarried. That turned out to be a nightmare for him; and he’s still in he marriage.

When I first heard about their problems, I started having dreams about him again. In some dreams, he would leave her and come back to me–but there was always turmoil in the dreams. And I started feeling guilty for dreaming that he left her for me. In one dream, I was walking through the halls of a hospital and found him there, very ill and alone. His wife had abandoned him. In that dream, I told him not to worry–that I would take care of him.

A few months back, I was having lunch with my son, who is now 22. We talked about the divorce between his dad and me, and about our disastrous second marriages. I told my son that I never stopped loving his dad. He said his dad feels the same way. Then my son said, “Mom, I think you and dad are each other’s one love.”

I am fighting tears as I write this. My son was right. We are each other’s one love. I should never have divorced him. I should had found a way to get through the rough times.

So, this is my confession. This is a story with an unhappy ending; and I have no idea how to make it right.

Anna

P.S. I do attend an Episcopal Church.

Anna, Thanks for sharing your story and your pain with us. This has to be very difficult for your entire family. Anything is possible with God! He has given you the heart to love. Live as that witness and live with JOY with your son and everywhere you go. If your ex-husband see’s what he truly wants you may see the grace of God put you two back together again. Live with peace and keep that JOY, Jesus first before anything, Others needs and concerns before us, then Ourselves last.

I am succesful more often now then I used to, but I still fail on occasion.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Anna, Thanks for sharing your story and your pain with us. This has to be very difficult for your entire family. Anything is possible with God! He has given you the heart to love. Live as that witness and live with JOY with your son and everywhere you go. If your ex-husband see’s what he truly wants you may see the grace of God put you two back together again. Live with peace and keep that JOY, Jesus first before anything, Others needs and concerns before us, then Ourselves last.

I am succesful more often now then I used to, but I still fail on occasion.

Lapey,

Thank you for your kind words of encouragement. I think the worst of it is not my pain, though that is great; but the sorrow brought to my son, to his father, and the tearing apart of a family. No doubt, I was suffering in the marriage. I just wish I had had a wise counsel back then. Perhaps I would have seen another way, other than divorce.

Anna

 

[PRmerger]

Hi, PR. Haven’t talked with you for awhile. I hope you don’t mind if I jump into this discussion about divorce and remarriage.

I’m sad to say that I have been twice married and twice divorced. Things became unbearable in my first marriage, and I moved out with my son, who was about 3 years old. I never dreamed the marriage would end in divorce. I thought separation might jolt my husband enough to go to counseling and work things out. Long story short, we divorced–I’m the one who filed.

Six and a half years later, I remarried. When I told my first husband that I was going to remarry; he broke into tears–which is not like him. I’d scarcely seen him shed a tear in all the years I’d known him. My second marriage lasted only 3 years. By the time I asked him to move out, I feared for my son’s safety and I feared for my life. He lied about so many things; I truly felt like I had exchanged vows with a “persona” he created.

Soon after I remarried, I began having dreams about my first husband. In every dream, I felt like I had betrayed him by remarrying. The dreams continued throughout the marriage and I was truly haunted by them.

After the second divorce, I wondered if there was any possibility of reconciling with my first husband; but he’d already met someone and three months later, he remarried. That turned out to be a nightmare for him; and he’s still in he marriage.

When I first heard about their problems, I started having dreams about him again. In some dreams, he would leave her and come back to me–but there was always turmoil in the dreams. And I started feeling guilty for dreaming that he left her for me. In one dream, I was walking through the halls of a hospital and found him there, very ill and alone. His wife had abandoned him. In that dream, I told him not to worry–that I would take care of him.

A few months back, I was having lunch with my son, who is now 22. We talked about the divorce between his dad and me, and about our disastrous second marriages. I told my son that I never stopped loving his dad. He said his dad feels the same way. Then my son said, “Mom, I think you and dad are each other’s one love.”

I am fighting tears as I write this. My son was right. We are each other’s one love. I should never have divorced him. I should had found a way to get through the rough times.

So, this is my confession. This is a story with an unhappy ending; and I have no idea how to make it right.

Anna

P.S. I do attend an Episcopal Church.

Thank you for your testimony, Anna. I feel for your sorrow.

Not to add salt to the wound, but I think your story is a poignant affirmation that the Catholic Church’s teaching on divorce–one of the only churches that adheres to Jesus’ hard saying on this matter–rings true.

 

[CMatt25]

Sorry, my first statement was not charitable, true but not charitable; so I removed it.

You are ashamed of everything Catholic Christian except the name. I ask you as one of the others asked, why do you call yourself Catholic?

I shall keep you in my prayers!

Hi Lapey, thanks although I really didn’t find calling my beliefs “modern” all that offensive. I also don’t believe in the practice of slavery or stoning. Or women keeping quiet in churches. I don’t believe a virgin damsel after some guy “took her and lay with her” and it comes to judgment, needs to marry him after the rapist pays her father. (Deut 22). And there are all sorts of other things in Scripture many Catholic Chrisitans don’t follow today.

But no I am not ashamed of everything Catholic Christian. Called a Catholic not only by myself but by the Church, there are many things Catholic Christian which encompass a unity with others for instance of which I am not ashamed of. I believe the Sacrament of Anointing of the Sick for those who desire to receive it, is not shameful and indeed is even a manner in which one may reconcile with God.

Thank you so much for your prayers. I always appreciate prayer. Prayer truly sustains me. The Apostle James encouraged us to pray for one another so that we be saved. I pray for you as well if that’s ok. God bless you Lapey and peace.