Any Episcopalians in the house?

[SteveVH]

Funny enough, I live in a very liberal, progressively minded area (San Francisco bay area), yet I am in a parish that includes some seriously hard-core Catholics. I just think that I can’t belong to something that I disagree with on some fundamental topics that are never going to change.

So you are looking for a community that agrees with you. Is this the measure by which you determine the truth? There are some things that I wish were different as well. I wish it wasn’t a big deal if I missed Mass now and then. I wish there were an easier way to go than confessing my sins to a man I know very well. I wish people didn’t have to go through the annulment process if they wanted to marry again.

But I would be wrong on each and every account and my soul would be in danger if the Church agreed with my human tendency to find an easier path. Instead I have conformed my life to the teachings of the one institution established by Christ, to which he promised that he would always remain and to which he sent the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.

I would just caution you, in the strongest of terms, to really think about what you are considering and if it is best for your eternal salvation.

Peace.

Steve

 

[smead2942]

So you are looking for a community that agrees with you. Is this the measure by which you determine the truth? There are some things that I wish were different as well. I wish it wasn’t a big deal if I missed Mass now and then. I wish there were an easier way to go than confessing my sins to a man I know very well. I wish people didn’t have to go through the annulment process if they wanted to marry again.

But I would be wrong on each and every account and my soul would be in danger if the Church agreed with my human tendency to find an easier path. Instead I have conformed my life to the teachings of the one institution established by Christ, to which he promised that he would always remain and to which he sent the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth.

I would just caution you, in the strongest of terms, to really think about what you are considering and if it is best for your eternal salvation.

Peace.

Steve

AMEN!!!

“If I were not a Catholic, and were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other words, I would look for the Church which the world hated. My reason for doing this would be, that if Christ is in any one of the churches of the world today, He must still be hated as He was when He was on earth in the flesh. If you would find Christ today, then find the Church that does not get along with the world. Look for the Church that is hated by the world as Christ was hated by the world. Look for the Church that is accused of being behind the times, as our Lord was accused of being ignorant and never having learned. Look for the Church which men sneer at as socially inferior, as they sneered at Our Lord because He came from Nazareth. Look for the Church which is accused of having a devil, as Our Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the Prince of Devils. Look for the Church which, in seasons of bigotry, men say must be destroyed in the name of God as men crucified Christ and thought they had done a service to God. Look for the Church which the world rejects because it claims it is infallible, as Pilate rejected Christ because He called Himself the Truth. Look for the Church which is rejected by the world as Our Lord was rejected by men. Look for the Church which amid the confusions of conflicting opinions, its members love as they love Christ, and respect its Voice as the very voice of its Founder, and the suspicion will grow, that if the Church is unpopular with the spirit of the world, then it is unworldly, and if it is unworldly it is other worldly. since it is other-worldly, it is infinitely loved and infinitely hated as was Christ Himself. But only that which is Divine can be infinitely hated and infinitely loved. Therefore the Church is Divine.”

-Archbishop Fulton Sheen

 

[smead2942]

There’s a big difference between what Archbishop Sheen would look for in a Church and what you are looking for, no?

 

[GKC]

No one thinks that the Episcopal Church is the true Church. Nor, as a Catholic who accepts the authority of Vatican II, do you have the option of denying that baptized Episcopalians are in some sense members of the true Church. The question is: exactly what is the Episcopal Church’s relationship to the true Church? Episcopalians tend to see themselves as one constituent of the worldwide Anglican Communion (though that may be changing in some ways) which is in turn one part of the Catholic Church as a whole.

I don’t believe that the Episcopal Church, or even the Anglican Communion, is a single thing in any meaningful ecclesiological sense. If we do have apostolic succession, then we are a collection of local churches led by bishops but not in communion with Rome. If our apostolic succession is broken, as Rome claims, then we are a collection of communities of baptized people who believe in Jesus.

But whichever of these things is true, we participate in the four marks of the Church only insofar as other Christians do (other Christians with apostolic succession in the first case; all other baptized, Trinitarian Christians in the second).

Edwin

Wise words.

GKC

 

[Peter_J]

For years I’ve thought on and off about attending an Episcopal service

Hmmm … attending the service of a non-Catholic religion :ehh:

• Jeez, Max, I don’t know about this. I went to Catholic school. I’m not sure this is allowed. Ah, what the hell.
• (far away) Oh dear. Sister Mary Joseph, it appears Peter Griffin has entered a synagogue.

 

[Peter_J]

(I was going to insert the actual video for anyone who’s never seen it, but it isn’t online. Which is probably just as well, since the show it comes from is a little Meh.)

But in all seriousness, I think this thread should slow down a hair: some of the posts seem to have switched from the topic of an RC attending an Episcopal service to the topic of an RC joining the Episcopal Church (i.e. leaving Roman Catholicism).
To put this in perspective, just consider how it would be if you went to, say, an Eastern Orthodox forum and started talking about the possibility of an Orthodox “converting” to Roman Catholicism.

 

[seanman611]

Episcopalian here.

The Episcopal Church is pretty much a broad to high church Anglican province these days. The worship, typically, will not vary that much parish to parish. That said, theology can be wildly different parish to parish. You can find anything from '28 BCP traditionalists with only male clergy all the way to feminist progressive liberal parishes that are consumed by secular political issues and, lastly, you can find everything in between.

I am going to be leaving my Episcopal parish in 2016. It is due to a number of factors: 1. Changing from full-time to part-time priest 2. The parish only has money to survive for a handful more years 3. The actions of the national church are something that I can no longer reconcile with my conscience and so on. That said, I am leaning in the LCMS Lutheran direction, but my mind is certainly still open to other directions.

 

[SteveVH]

Episcopalian here.

The Episcopal Church is pretty much a broad to high church Anglican province these days. The worship, typically, will not vary that much parish to parish. That said, theology can be wildly different parish to parish. You can find anything from '28 BCP traditionalists with only male clergy all the way to feminist progressive liberal parishes that are consumed by secular political issues and, lastly, you can find everything in between.

I am going to be leaving my Episcopal parish in 2016. It is due to a number of factors: 1. Changing from full-time to part-time priest 2. The parish only has money to survive for a handful more years 3. The actions of the national church are something that I can no longer reconcile with my conscience and so on. That said, I am leaning in the LCMS Lutheran direction, but my mind is certainly still open to other directions.

I might be able to suggest one, if you are interested.

I wish you well on your journey.

Peace.

Steve

 

[seanman611]

I might be able to suggest one, if you are interested.

I don’t doubt it!! I certainly haven’t ruled anything out. I would almost definitely stay Anglican if there was a nearby continuing Anglican parish, but the closest one is about 90 miles. Same with the nearest Orthodox parish. On a positive note, both the local Lutheran and Catholic parishes are excellent and quite traditional.

My journey into the Episcopal Church was actually a compromise between my wife and I. She leaned Lutheran and I leaned Catholic, so we went Episcopal lol That said, I am very grateful for my time in the Episcopal Church.

I wish you well on your journey.

Peace.

Steve

Thank you

 

[SteveVH]

I don’t doubt it!! I certainly haven’t ruled anything out. I would almost definitely stay Anglican if there was a nearby continuing Anglican parish, but the closest one is about 90 miles. Same with the nearest Orthodox parish. On a positive note, both the local Lutheran and Catholic parishes are excellent and quite traditional.

My journey into the Episcopal Church was actually a compromise between my wife and I. She leaned Lutheran and I leaned Catholic, so we went Episcopal lol That said, I am very grateful for my time in the Episcopal Church.

Convenience is certainly a pesky issue, on a day to day basis, but, IMO in the end it cannot be the basis on which we should choose our faith tradition, whether that be choosing the Catholic Church or another. Would you not agree that it is the Truth that really matters and that we should seek it, even if it is difficult? IOW, I would not change the Church to which I belong because another is more convenient to attend. More important is what we believe and why we believe it.

Peace, my friend.

Steve

 

[wmscott]

Fantastic! For years I’ve thought on and off about attending an Episcopal service (mass?) but have been too afraid to step out of my comfort zone. But for various cultural, political, and theological reasons (I won’t go over them all here, they’ve been discussed enough!), I feel like the Episcopal church is a better fit for me. I’m not getting any younger (I’m 39) and I feel that I need to get on with it instead of living with the feeling of biting my tongue when I’m around other (increasingly zealous) Catholic peers.
So…what can I expect at an Episcopal service? Do I speak with the reverend first, or do I simply attend? Catholic masses are usually pretty large congregations and no one approaches or notices if you are new or not. Is it the same in your church?

Hi Virgo, this is just my opinion and I certainly am not going to judge you or your decisions. The first thing I would suggest, and I am sure you already have, is to pray hard to the HS to discern your spiritual direction. We are all at different levels in our spiritual journeys and some of us are cool, lukewarm, hot, and on fire (zealous) or any point on that spectrum. All of us have our opinions and some or a lot can be overbearing in pushing those opinions. In the end these zealous Catholic peers are just the members of the faith and may or may not represent the faith accurately, it may just be their opinions. I know you know as a Catholic that in the end it is the Catholic Church that we must look to for the Authoritative Truths of our faith. If your zealous Catholic peers are putting forth ideas and statements that you find troublesome, take that information and find out what the Church actually teaches. You may or may not find that they are not accurate in their positions.

Remember they are just human and subject to sin and mistakes like us all. This is just my opinion and that I get the sense that these “zealous” Catholics that live in San Francisco may be over compensating for the liberal lifestyles and attitudes that San Francisco has a reputation for. It is their way of coping to the constant bombardment on their Catholic faith. I consider myself to be conservative and somewhat zealous, but it is a zealous attitude for the truth, not in a way that would pass judgment or to attack someone. I do feel that the Catholic Church is being attacked on every front possible and that the members of the Catholic faith need to know what their faith teaches them. In the end we are to confront untruths and falsehoods with charity and compassion.

It is you and only you that will need to decide where the HS is leading you. Do it prayerfully and informatively.

 

[virgo]

When looking for the true Church, rather than looking for the church with the most greeters, a coffee shop, feel-goody sermons and worldly social teachings, one should look for the Church which will ultimately lead to salvation. There are four things to keep in mind.

Smead, I’m neither looking for a “true Church” (they all claim they’re true, I just want to have as close a relationship to God as I can.), nor am I looking for greeters, a coffee shop, or feel-good sermons. I’m an introvert, truth be told.

 

[virgo]

Quote:
“If I were not a Catholic, and were looking for the true Church in the world today, I would look for the one Church which did not get along well with the world; in other words, I would look for the Church which the world hated. My reason for doing this would be, that if Christ is in any one of the churches of the world today, He must still be hated as He was when He was on earth in the flesh. If you would find Christ today, then find the Church that does not get along with the world. Look for the Church that is hated by the world as Christ was hated by the world. Look for the Church that is accused of being behind the times, as our Lord was accused of being ignorant and never having learned. Look for the Church which men sneer at as socially inferior, as they sneered at Our Lord because He came from Nazareth. Look for the Church which is accused of having a devil, as Our Lord was accused of being possessed by Beelzebub, the Prince of Devils. Look for the Church which, in seasons of bigotry, men say must be destroyed in the name of God as men crucified Christ and thought they had done a service to God. Look for the Church which the world rejects because it claims it is infallible, as Pilate rejected Christ because He called Himself the Truth. Look for the Church which is rejected by the world as Our Lord was rejected by men. Look for the Church which amid the confusions of conflicting opinions, its members love as they love Christ, and respect its Voice as the very voice of its Founder, and the suspicion will grow, that if the Church is unpopular with the spirit of the world, then it is unworldly, and if it is unworldly it is other worldly. since it is other-worldly, it is infinitely loved and infinitely hated as was Christ Himself. But only that which is Divine can be infinitely hated and infinitely loved. Therefore the Church is Divine.”
-Archbishop Fulton Sheen
*

As much as I respect Fulton Sheen, that is really, really bad advice. If I were to join the most hated, most judged church in the world, I’d join Scientology, or Mormonism, or that church that pickets at every soldier’s funeral. Yeah, not what I’m looking for in a church. Thanks anyway, smead2942.

 

[virgo]

wmscott, that is very helpful advice. And thank you so much for for kind tone. You are right in that we are all one church and that there are many voices in that church, some louder than others. I’m just finding that the legalistic nature of Catholicism runs contrary to what I truly believe, especially its rigidity in the face of real (messy) life. There are so many centuries of magisterial law upon magisterial law (that Jesus never even preached), even though my life doesn’t actually run counter to most of those laws, its hard to breathe.
I’m also finding that Catholics in my generation are getting off track, especially in the zealous Catholic parents I see that are shouting about issues that have nothing to do with Catholicism, yet they pair it anyway, such as anti-vaccination views, anti-gun limitations, and homeschooling (they’re also anti-common core). In short, there is a growing “anti” movement, and I find it’s negativity appalling and completely off-topic from Christ’s message. That together with the legalistic rigidity of Catholicism is what has me taking another look at the Episcopal church.

 

[wmscott]

wmscott, that is very helpful advice. And thank you so much for for kind tone. You are right in that we are all one church and that there are many voices in that church, some louder than others. I’m just finding that the legalistic nature of Catholicism runs contrary to what I truly believe, especially its rigidity in the face of real (messy) life. There are so many centuries of magisterial law upon magisterial law (that Jesus never even preached), even though my life doesn’t actually run counter to most of those laws, its hard to breathe.
I’m also finding that Catholics in my generation are getting off track, especially in the zealous Catholic parents I see that are shouting about issues that have nothing to do with Catholicism, yet they pair it anyway, such as anti-vaccination views, anti-gun limitations, and homeschooling (they’re also anti-common core). In short, there is a growing “anti” movement, and I find it’s negativity appalling and completely off-topic from Christ’s message. That together with the legalistic rigidity of Catholicism is what has me taking another look at the Episcopal church.

Virgo, I feel you, I have had to deal the anti-vaccination views, anti-gun limitations, and homeschooling type before, it was like the 800 pound gorilla in the room at times and I agree off topic most of the time. Every encounter I felt like I was being tested and scrutinized as a Catholic. Thankfully these are the minority as far as I am concerned and to me if we all were the same it would be very boring. These encounters was me pretty much “Patting the boisterous child on the head”, smiling, and redirecting the conversation. I try to be the “Positive” aspect of the faith and exemplify by word and deed.

As far as the legalistic rigidity of Catholicism and this is just my opinion, being a career military man if find comfort in structure and discipline. So the legalistic aspect of Catholicism for me is a Church that is the same yesterday, today, and tomorrow. I may not agree with everything the Faith teaches, but I am able to accept that there are some things that I have to acquiesce to. to me I see it surrendering to Christ’s Church.

Again Virgo these are just my feelings and opinions, please don’t feel that I am trying to dissuade you in your search for where you need to be. As a note I am a convert to Catholicism, I used to be a Southern Baptist. SO I understand your spiritual journey and looking for a home.

 

[virgo]

wmscott, you don’t know how great it feels to be heard. What you say makes sense and I will make it a point to try and see things through your eyes as I navigate this difficult time.

 

[wmscott]

wmscott, you don’t know how great it feels to be heard. What you say makes sense and I will make it a point to try and see things through your eyes as I navigate this difficult time.

If you need to talk, you can PM me to discuss things out of full public view. However, there are a lot of really good folks here that can help other than myself, I am just one voice.

 

[seanman611]

Virgo, I feel you, I have had to deal the anti-vaccination views, anti-gun limitations, and homeschooling type before, it was like the 800 pound gorilla in the room at times and I agree off topic most of the time. Every encounter I felt like I was being tested and scrutinized as a Catholic. Thankfully these are the minority as far as I am concerned and to me if we all were the same it would be very boring. These encounters was me pretty much “Patting the boisterous child on the head”, smiling, and redirecting the conversation. I try to be the “Positive” aspect of the faith and exemplify by word and deed.

And I’m guessing the answer to these so-called anti-vaccination, anti-gun limitations, and homeschooling types would be to use the force of the state to force vaccination, gun control, and no choice when it comes to schooling?

Not trying to get this thread off topic, but to refer to libertarian/liberty minded individuals as children seem pretty childish. Steps off soap box

 

[wmscott]

And I’m guessing the answer to these so-called anti-vaccination, anti-gun limitations, and homeschooling types would be to use the force of the state to force vaccination, gun control, and no choice when it comes to schooling?

Not trying to get this thread off topic, but to refer to libertarian/liberty minded individuals as children seem pretty childish. Steps off soap box

You will notice that I said “so-called anti-vaccination, anti-gun limitations, and homeschooling TYPES”. There are all types of individuals that push their beliefs in an over zealous way. You are taking the child thing to literal.

 

[Contarini]

wmscott, that is very helpful advice. And thank you so much for for kind tone. You are right in that we are all one church and that there are many voices in that church, some louder than others. I’m just finding that the legalistic nature of Catholicism runs contrary to what I truly believe, especially its rigidity in the face of real (messy) life. There are so many centuries of magisterial law upon magisterial law (that Jesus never even preached), even though my life doesn’t actually run counter to most of those laws, its hard to breathe.
I’m also finding that Catholics in my generation are getting off track, especially in the zealous Catholic parents I see that are shouting about issues that have nothing to do with Catholicism, yet they pair it anyway, such as anti-vaccination views, anti-gun limitations, and homeschooling (they’re also anti-common core). In short, there is a growing “anti” movement, and I find it’s negativity appalling and completely off-topic from Christ’s message. That together with the legalistic rigidity of Catholicism is what has me taking another look at the Episcopal church.

Well, I don’t think homeschooling necessarily involves being anti-anything

But I get what you are talking about.

It just seems rather odd to leave the Catholic Church over things that, as you say, are actually not part of Catholic teaching. Granted, I find the other side of the coin very frustrating in Episcopal parishes (the endless litany of “it’s so great to belong to a church where you don’t have to check your brain at the door,” the complete contempt for Catholic teaching on sexual issues, the acceptance of abortion, the general attitude of thanking God that we are not as other people are, legalists, fundamentalists, Roman Catholics, or even these Methodists).

There’s no doubt that the “Roman” approach to Christianity is too legalistic. But the Body of Christ needs a skeleton. The thing is to put flesh on it.

By the way, the church my friend attended was Trinity Menlo Park, which she describes as “broad to liberal” and attended not because it was particularly congenial theologically but because it was the closest one to where she lived.

God bless,

Edwin