Any Ex Mormon Missionaries out there?

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I was kinda sweating while examining it, as though it meant danger, even though I was determined not to give in. Then I was wondering if there would not be any passage that would be mostly doubtful as compared to Biblical books…
 
…And I found one: a prophesy a bit too precise to be true, the one that announced there would be a Joseph, son of Joseph son of Joseph (meaning of course joseph Smith himself)… My! what kind of a “prophesy” is that? You don’t have anything of this kind in the Bible! And the prophets’ “predictions”, they used to be of the kind: “If you don’t repent, here is what will happen”, with the memory of past events that happened in such circumstances, the politics happening in the country and inthe countries around (Babylon and Assyria, for instance), how those people used to be known to deal with things, etc., all that in mind. Sometimes what they tell the people may have popped up from a punctual inspiration from God, I do believe it, some prophesies are really hard to explain otherwise…
 
But I never read an OT prophesy which would go as far as to name a future prophet very precisely. Oh, there is this prophesy from Isaiah about the child born from a young girl, a virgin (according to the Septuagint Bible -in Greek) and the child’s name would be Emmanuel… “God-With-Us”… It’s applied to Jesus, but you notice that our Saviour wasn’t given the name Emmanuel but Jesus…“God-Saves”… even though indeed Jesus is truly “God-With-Us”! But, I hope you get my point!
 
talter said:
Prince Hal, Paul D, and any other ex missionaries. I hope this isn’t a thread hijack if it is I’ll make a new one but as missionaries you must have born your testimony at some point in time to the prospect. Did you have the classic burning in the bosom or something else? Then once you recognized the truth how do you reconcile that experience with where you are now? I suspect that there’s a range of explanations from “fake it till you make it” to it was of the devil. I’m just curious how you guys were able to move beyond it given the emotional bond that is connected to it. Ignore me if it’s too personal not trying to pry.
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I never got a burning in the bosom from the Book of Mormon, but I did get that conviction when the missionaries declared that Jesus is the savior of the world, I need to repent and that God will judge everyone according to his works (my life was a mess at that time),
all concepts lifted from the bible, which I had never really read. I was tricked by the missionaries into believing that this awakening of my conscience was evidence that Joseph Smith was a prophet and that the LDS Church is God’s church restored to the earth. That is the bait-and-switch they use.

As a missionary, I testified to these things. But the more I testified to the truth of Mormonism, the less I believed it. It was very difficult to reconcile that feeling I had gotten with the conviction I had that I had made a huge mistake by becoming a Mormon. I was already disturbed by the deeper Mormon teachings, by the lack of worship in the LDS church, and especially by Joseph Smith’s aberant behavior. As I studied the bible in depth, I discovered that Mormonism was incompatible with the bible. This caused me terrible anxiety. My Mormon leaders and teachers could not resolve these conflicts.

My Christian brother finally gave me the key to my dilemna. He said that I could just as easily have been moved to repentance by listening to Billy Graham or Bishop Fulton Sheen or anyone else that declared my need to come to Jesus. The fact that it happened when I was listening to the LDS missionaries was just an unfortunate coincidence. It didn’t mean that Mormonism was true, it meant that Jesus is true. As soon as my brother told me that, the scales fell from my eyes and I was set free.

God love you,
Paul
 
Also, I read some of the litterature about that Joseph Smith. And there is something rather strange about his “translation” of the golden plates. He is said to have used Urim and Tummim… impossible! In the OT, Urim and Tummim were used a bit like dice to ask God: will I succeed or won’t I? or: Is the culprit in this group or that group? then: is it I or is it he (in the case of King Saul and his son Jonathan) ? Things like that. Choices between two fates or two people or group of people… How can you use a device that to translate from one unknown language to another? The nouns given to those things are not proper ones, So… that’s how I concluded that it couldn’t be from genuine inspiration from the One true God… There!
 
You’re right about the urim and thummim. They were “lots” cast to decide between two alternative choices. They were certainly not “spectacles”.

Besides, the accounts of the translation given by Joseph’s scribes do not mention the urim and thummim. They say he used his green seer stone, which was found while digging a well, to translate and receive revelation.

Paul
 
PaulDupre said:
You’re right about the urim and thummim. They were “lots” cast to decide between two alternative choices. They were certainly not “spectacles”.

Besides, the accounts of the translation given by Joseph’s scribes do not mention the urim and thummim. They say he used his green seer stone, which was found while digging a well, to translate and receive revelation.

Paul
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How would a man translate strange signs into the American English just from a green stone?.. Whatever is meant by a “green seer stone”! Seers in Judaism certainly didn’t use green stones at all!!
Sounds like science-fiction to me! :rolleyes:🤷
 
lukewarm said:
If people don’t have an interest in Mormonism why waste both of your valuable time? Don’t people have better things to do than setting up meetings with missionaries just to debate them on theology? Take up the Piano, learn Spanish, seriously there is so many different ways you could be applying your time.
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Doesn’t it look like the same challenge Catholics themselves may have when it comes to evangelisation sometimes?
 
Rbt_Southwell said:
Then, maybe these ‘missionaries’ might have too much time on their hands and maybe their ‘bishops’ will better apply their zeal to another pursuit
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Dear Robert, I believe they don’t have bishops at all!
 
I wrote letters to the two missionaries (just about 20 years old both of them) and I told them about that Joseph-son-of-Joseph-son-of-Joseph and about my reflexions about this Urim-and-Tummim thing used to translate the plates. And they were like, “If the Book of Mormon is false, where then can we turn to?” A surprising statement from people who said they also believe in the Bible… which is apparently just a sentence thrown it to try to get you into their faith, given this reaction. I wrote to them and asked them? “Well, don’t you have the Bible? You can trust it to be the Word of God.” I received no further letter from them since…
 
Lapell said:
How would a man translate strange signs into the American English just from a green stone?.. Whatever is meant by a “green seer stone”! Seers in Judaism certainly didn’t use green stones at all!!
Sounds like science-fiction to me! :rolleyes:🤷
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Seer stones were (and are) common in European and American folk magic. They are used much like crystal balls or gazing pools for scrying (putting oneself into a trance and seeing visions or communicating with spirits).

Joseph and his family were very much into folk magic. It was an integral part of the mystical treasure-hunting scams they employed to make money. They would use seer stones or divining rods to locate “buried treasure” and then get someone to pay them to dig it up. The magic had to be done just right or the treasure would become “slippery” and disappear. This was common belief in folk magic. Of course, the treasure would always become “slippery” and disappear just before they found it. Then the Smiths would blame the failure on the financier’s lack of faith or some error in the magic spell.

These folk magic beliefs are reflected in the Book of Mormon:
31 And behold, the time cometh that he curseth your riches, that they become slippery, that ye cannot hold them; and in the days of your poverty ye cannot retain them.
• • •
33 O that I had repented, and had not killed the prophets, and stoned them, and cast them out. Yea, in that day ye shall say: O that we had remembered the Lord our God in the day that he gave us our riches, and then they would not have become slippery that we should lose them; for behold, our riches are gone from us. - Heleman 13:31,33
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18 And these Gadianton robbers, who were among the Lamanites, did infest the land, insomuch that the inhabitants thereof began to hide up their treasures in the earth; and they became slippery, because the Lord had cursed the land, that they could not hold them, nor retain them again. - Mormon 1:18
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Paul
 
I wish I knew how to use all this ‘thread, reply, quote’ stuff. Don’t so I’ll just write my thoughts here.

Sometimes I CAN quote scripture for proof…or to discredit some of the things I hear from Mormon missionaries. But, most of the time I find myself using LOGIC…that may or may not have a scriptural basis…like in one of my posts re: the GAP created by a errant an corrupt hierarchy that died out, but was restored by JS, as it applied to Jesus then, MUST have lied when he said that ‘I will not leave your orphans.’ (Which makes their claim that JS took up the banner AFTER a 2000 year GAP, simply NOT credibilbe for the vantage point of LOGIC. That is JS did NOT restore the church because those chosen by Jesus, corrupted the Church He left…and died…leaving a gap of 2000 years until Joseph Smith came along. in 18??. Jesus told His followers that He would NOT leave them ORPHANS. According to the Mormon teaching of JS picking up the ‘banner’ after this 2000 year GAP, only makes Jesus a LIAR…Give me a break!!!

In that same respect…Mormons claim that Jesus is NOT God. They say that Jesus is A god…YET, they call him SAVIOR? Where is the LOGIC in THAT? Hum…If Jesus is NOT God, but only A god, then LOGICALLY, Jesus is NOT equal too God, since he is just one of many… He is lesser…of A god, who APPARENTLY reached some point that he was ‘honored’ as the BEST…(most advanced?) of the other gods of Mormonism. Yes?..and which by the way, ALL MORMONS can also become. Yeah, they all can and should strive to BECOME gods themselves!!! I digress. Eeks…I’ll get back on track. OK. Follow along with my thoughts. Some years ago, (in Bush’s 1st adminstration?) while in a foreign country, he was SLAPPED by one of the citizens of that country. Take note…the APOLOGY for that slap was made by a person who was of EQUAL STATUS, politically, as was PRESIDENT BUSH…sort of, as in ‘the buck stops here’ approach. The apology for such a transgression MUST BE MADE by one of EQUAL STATUS. As a matter of fact, there would be a PUBLIC demand for the PRESIDENT of the country to make those apologies, since ALL citizens would be shamed by the actions of one of their coutnrymen. True? If so, then the same MUST also apply to Jesus Christ. Jesus CANNOT be called SAVIOR if He is not ABSOLUTELY EQUAL to God, since one of EQUAL status, MUST make the ‘apology.’(Expiation to the offended one, the one sinned against, the one who had his face slapped by the SIN of man.) Jesus, MUST BE GOD, in order to EXPIATE a sin committed AGAINST God…A LESSER god just would not have the STATUS to ‘correct’ such a transgression.

Anyway…This makes sense to ME. I am NO intellectual, and may even be way off base in my thinking as I try to pull LOGIC into conversations with Mormom missionaries…(or JW, for that matter.) No scripture used in the LOGICAL thought as I have expressed it…Could be that this IS one, or a number to choose from…If so, I haven’t got a clue. I feel comfortable with this approach, but don’t REALLY know if some ‘exigete’ out there could shoot down what I THINK is, at a minimum, baby logic?
 
Lapell said:
I wrote letters to the two missionaries (just about 20 years old both of them) and I told them about that Joseph-son-of-Joseph-son-of-Joseph and about my reflexions about this Urim-and-Tummim thing used to translate the plates. And they were like, “If the Book of Mormon is false, where then can we turn to?” A surprising statement from people who said they also believe in the Bible… which is apparently just a sentence thrown it to try to get you into their faith, given this reaction. I wrote to them and asked them? “Well, don’t you have the Bible? You can trust it to be the Word of God.” I received no further letter from them since…
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A mormon’s faith stands and falls on the book of mormon and Joseph Smith. It is not uncommon for people who leave mormonism to become atheists, as they have been taught by the mormon church very anti-Christian thoughts and beliefs. Including that the Bible is full of errors and cannot be trusted. Smith himself “fixed” portions of the King James Bible, based on the belief that it is in error. Mormons have some of this “scripture” in their Pearl of Great Price, which is part of their official doctrine.

I have friends who are former mormons, who are not only very anti-mormon, but also anti-Christian. And, if you hang out with mormons, or read their boards like this one, you will certainly see this vein of anti-Christianity that permeates all of their beliefs. It is in fact the root of Smith’s claims, that all of Christianity was wrong, and so he created a religion that was “right”.
 
Lapell said:
And they were like, “If the Book of Mormon is false, where then can we turn to?”
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This is another of the bait-and-switch tactics, this one used by the Mormon leaders on their own people. They teach that if the Book of Mormon is false, then everything taught in the Book of Mormon is false, including the idea that God exists and that Jesus is our savior. It truly leaves Mormons with nowhere to go, unless they learn to think outside of the LDS paradigm. Sadly, many never do.

Paul
 
Paul,
I think the biggest bait and switch is the BoM itself. missionaries try to get folks to read it and it seems all “Bibley” and the teachings in it seem very mainstream protestant. (One God, polygamy bad, Isaiah and NT quoted, etc.) yet actual LDS doctrine and practice is based on D&C, Temple Ceremony (not documented in “standard works”) and whatever the current prophet says right now. :confused:
 
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