Any ex-pro-life staunchly pro-choicers out there?

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Not yet, anyway. . .

But think of how many years (in her medical training and then in the years since she started her practice) that she had to ‘train’ herself for the cognitive dissonance.

When you hear these abortionists speaking it’s always the ‘clinical’. . .‘products of conception’, "tissue’. . .even “fetus” is considered lately to be too ‘human-sounding’ and so the emphasis on ‘tissue’, ‘material’, ‘products’; words meant to make it appear as if the child in the womb were equivalent to a polyp or some kind of malignant growth. . .

And of course, the woman is always ‘counseled’ on these procedures and things like sterilization, and the woman always "adamantly demands’ the procedure knowing full well the risks, benefits, alternatives, and unforeseen complications, and it’s always such an **informed and empowering decision. **(not!)
 
Unfortunately, it doesn’t soften the hearts of everyone: americanpapist.com/2009/10/mature-audience-woman-describes.html 😦
So I was reading the woman’s blog and on a pretty recent post, a commenter said this:

2 comments:

R said…
Code:
My thoughts exactly! This is a really nice post. Also, a lot of people don't know that about abortion pre-1850ish -- that "before quickening" it was legal in the US **and allowed by the Catholic Church!**
January 21, 2010 11:39 PM
I wanted to post a comment but it basically says “any comments i don’t like will be deleted.”

grrr
 
Grrr indeed - of course, not having x-rays and ultrasounds and the like in the 1850s, nobody really knew everything there was to know about the early stages of development of a baby.

They didn’t know that it immediately had human DNA, and possibly not that within a matter of weeks it had a heartbeat, a recognisably human shape (fingers, toes etc), things like that.
 
Magdalena09
a lot of people don’t know that about abortion pre-1850ish – that “before quickening” it was legal in the US and allowed by the Catholic Church!
Reality
Our “Didache (composed before A.D. 80) told the faithful what they must not do: ‘You shall not procure abortion.’….**Catholicism has always held that the direct attack on an unborn foetus, at any time after conception, is a grave sin. The history of this teaching has been consistent and continuous, beginning with the earliest times and up to the present.” **(Fr John A Hardon, S.J., The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday, 1975, p 334-5). [CCC 2271].

“Even scientific and philosophical discussions about the precise moment of the infusion of the spiritual soul have never given rise to any hesitation about the moral condemnation of abortion.” [John Paul II, Encyclical Letter *Evangelium Vitae 61, 1995].
 
Reality
Our “Didache (composed before A.D. 80) told the faithful what they must not do: ‘You shall not procure abortion.’….Catholicism has always held that the direct attack on an unborn foetus, at any time after conception, is a grave sin. The history of this teaching has been consistent and continuous, beginning with the earliest times and up to the present.” (Fr John A Hardon, S.J., The Catholic Catechism, Doubleday, 1975, p 334-5). [CCC 2271].

“Even scientific and philosophical discussions about the precise moment of the infusion of the spiritual soul have never given rise to any hesitation about the moral condemnation of abortion.” [John Paul II, Encyclical Letter *Evangelium Vitae
61, 1995].

Well yes, I know that and I would assume everyone else here knows that.

BTW the way you edited my post makes it look like I said that. Which I didn’t. :mad:
 
My apologies, Magdalena09, for lack of clarity; you were indeed reporting a false statement.

Of course murder is a grave sin – killing an innocent human person from the moment of conception onwards.
 
Uhhh…excuse me, but YOU were once and embryo and a fetus too. Would you have wanted your mother to destroy you too? Your mother gave you life. Think about that!!

I just lost my baby…yes…BABY… just 3 days ago, to a miscarriage. That BABY was every bit a human being even at just 8 weeks gestation (its own DNA, blood type, heartbeat,etc). Do some REAL honest research instead of listening to idiots!

Are you even Catholic (or Christian, for that matter)? Because if you are Catholic, you have no business being pro-choice (or receiving communion). You can’t have it both ways. It makes me so angry that some Catholics think they can just pick and choose what the church teaches to suit their own agendas.

Sorry, but this just makes me ill !!! :mad:

Mother of 3 saints in heaven,
Danielle
 
Uhhh…excuse me, but YOU were once and embryo and a fetus too. Would you have wanted your mother to destroy you too? Your mother gave you life. Think about that!!

I just lost my baby…yes…BABY… just 3 days ago, to a miscarriage. That BABY was every bit a human being even at just 8 weeks gestation (its own DNA, blood type, heartbeat,etc). Do some REAL honest research instead of listening to idiots!

Are you even Catholic (or Christian, for that matter)? Because if you are Catholic, you have no business being pro-choice (or receiving communion). You can’t have it both ways. It makes me so angry that some Catholics think they can just pick and choose what the church teaches to suit their own agendas.

Sorry, but this just makes me ill !!! :mad:

Mother of 3 saints in heaven,
Danielle
Sadly, pro-choicers believe that it’s up to the mother alone to decide if her baby’s life is worth anything.
 
U
I just lost my baby…yes…BABY… just 3 days ago, to a miscarriage. That BABY was every bit a human being even at just 8 weeks gestation (its own DNA, blood type, heartbeat,etc). Do some REAL honest research instead of listening to idiots!

I’m sorry for your loss.

Are you even Catholic (or Christian, for that matter)? Because if you are Catholic, you have no business being pro-choice (or receiving communion). You can’t have it both ways. It makes me so angry that some Catholics think they can just pick and choose what the church teaches to suit their own agendas.

**Just a comment: A Catholic may have difficulty understanding the reasons behind a teaching, or may even disagree with it, but still obey it. Just as you might not agree with everything your parents tell you to do, you have to follow their rules. Kindness goes both ways: just because a person is pro-choice does not mean they will run out to have an abortion or support those who do, or vote for someone who does. That just means they disagree with the teaching. On the other hand, a pro-lifer is really only walking the walk and talking the talk if, when confronted with a crisis, runs to their doctor for an abortion. And I’ve known a few who have done just that. **

Sorry, but this just makes me ill !!! :mad:

If you didn’t care about your position, you wouldn’t be mad. It’s okay to be mad.
 
Sadly, pro-choicers believe that it’s up to the mother alone to decide if her baby’s life is worth anything.
That is very sad, and it makes you wonder, how long does that last? 3 months? 6 months? 9 months? Toddler years? Teenage years? When does a mother’s “right” to “get rid of” her child end? Humans are constantly developing from the moment of conception, so why does a mother have the “right” to murder a human because it’s in a certain stage of development. :rolleyes:
 
You might notice that I did not start this thread! I would have never started a thread about this, I only answered someone’s question. I am not interested in convincing anyone to think as I do.

I don’t see why you put Catholics in quotes though, the Church considers everyone who’s ever been baptized Catholic a Catholic.
Something like half of Catholics in America are pro-choice, I guess they’re all “Catholics” huh?
 
flyingfish - You appear to approach life from a point of view of: “I think, therefore I am.” To you, you believe you exist because, well, you believe it. And before you could believe it or were conscious of it, you didn’t.

I believe I exist because God created me the moment I was conceived. It’s not, nor has it ever been, up to me to decide if I exist - it’s always been up to God. It doesn’t matter whether I can think, or speak or see myself or anything else. I don’t have to believe it or think it - it just is. And as a human, God created me in his own image, therefore my life is precious to him, regardless of what my stage of development is.

Just my two cents.
 
*Just a comment: A Catholic may have difficulty understanding the reasons behind a teaching, or may even disagree with it, but still obey it. Just as you might not agree with everything your parents tell you to do, you have to follow their rules. Kindness goes both ways: just because a person is pro-choice does not mean they will run out to have an abortion or support those who do, or vote for someone who does. That just means they disagree with the teaching. On the other hand, a pro-lifer is really only walking the walk and talking the talk if, when confronted with a crisis, runs to their doctor for an abortion. And I’ve known a few who have done just that. *

Well, if they’re disagreeing with Catholic teaching, then they obviously either don’t fully understand the reasoning behind it or the teaching is too "difficult’ for them to live out.

I’m not trying to be unkind…just trying to speak the truth for what it is. I just can’t understand why some people are so ignorant.

As far as pro-lifers “walking the walk” and “talking the talk” ,there may very well be some like that, who, when faced with an unplanned pregnancy, will go out and abort. I, for one, am not one of them. A baby has a right to life…regardless of the circumstances behind their conception. End of story…
 
flyingfish - You appear to approach life from a point of view of: “I think, therefore I am.” To you, you believe you exist because, well, you believe it. And before you could believe it or were conscious of it, you didn’t.

I believe I exist because God created me the moment I was conceived. It’s not, nor has it ever been, up to me to decide if I exist - it’s always been up to God. It doesn’t matter whether I can think, or speak or see myself or anything else. I don’t have to believe it or think it - it just is. And as a human, God created me in his own image, therefore my life is precious to him, regardless of what my stage of development is.

Just my two cents.
I agree. “I think therefore I am” can be used to justify abortion and euthanasia. I’m not keen on Descartes’ philosophy which is also the basis of the scientific method. Nobody is only a brain. A person’s brain will rot when he or she is dead but the soul can live on. My soul is the most important part of me which I got at conception.
 
I cannot imagine what it is to be pregnant with a rapists child, and I think pro-life has to go farther than the birth if a child will simply die of starvation or be neglected or worse abused then is it truly a service to that child to bring them into the world? So in some cases, more than the Catholic Church, I am understanding of an abortion.
I realize that this thread is a week old… and I’m actually hopeful that someone else has commented on this, but… :o

This is one of my pet-peeves: When a woman is raped, it’s ok for her to have an abortion. At least, it should be. It HAS to be.

Why? :confused:

What is it about an abortion that un-rapes a woman?

I’m not going to go off on my normal tyrade (thank goodness for the ‘delete’ option before completing a post) about my logic… but I remember being in High School, and they would set up a debate on the legalities of abortion. ‘… except in the case of rape or incest’.

That was really POUNDED in, part of some mantra… and for years, it was un-explored for me to try to consider WHY this exception was always tossed out there 😉

So, since I’m on the other end of the time spectrum, I am curious to know what others have as their basis.

Why do you think that rape (and if applicable, incest) are reasons to allow for an abortion? What does an abortion do to help either of these situations. :whistle:
 
Looking back on my response…I did not think of adoption.
Don’t beat yourself up… Seems that is the common situation

So few even CONSIDER adoption, even when they have ‘thought things through’. :rolleyes:
 
I am not sure what I am. But I used to be pro-life.

You know, God gives us the choice. Sin or not. He could take that choice away. So, is God pro-choice?

Before you say you are pro-life you need to understand what that means. I don’t think people do.

Tell me, is eating at MacDonald’s ok? Have you tried to live on what they pay their employees? Is it pro-life to pay someone less than what it costs to live? Should Catholics not do business with people that do not pay their employees enough?

I know it is beyond the ability of the Church to figure it out, but what is pro-life really? When you say another person can not get an abortion, then, by the same logic you can say that a person cannot be a Mormon. Where do you draw the line?
 
I am not sure what I am. But I used to be pro-life.

You know, God gives us the choice. Sin or not. He could take that choice away. So, is God pro-choice?
G.K. Chesterton said, “To have the right to do a thing is not at all the same as to be right in doing it.”

Mothers certainly have the free will to abort their baby if they want, but that doesn’t mean we enshrine it in our societal laws and treat it as morally acceptable, much less support it.
Before you say you are pro-life you need to understand what that means. I don’t think people do.
Tell me, is eating at MacDonald’s ok? Have you tried to live on what they pay their employees? Is it pro-life to pay someone less than what it costs to live? Should Catholics not do business with people that do not pay their employees enough?
I know it is beyond the ability of the Church to figure it out, but what is pro-life really? When you say another person can not get an abortion, then, by the same logic you can say that a person cannot be a Mormon. Where do you draw the line?
The pro-life philosophy is comprehensive. It’s about building the kingdom of heaven here on earth. Fair wages for workers are a part of it.

We are all called to be perfect, as God is perfect. This does not happen overnight. We should all be striving to better the world and ourselves every day. But just because we and the world are not perfect in one way, such as paying good wages to every single person, doesn’t change the fact that abortion is wrong and should be fought against.

If you cheat on tests in school, that doesn’t mean you should also shoplift just to be consistent in your actions. It also doesn’t mean that you should consider shoplifting to be acceptable. It does mean you shouldn’t judge yourself to be a better person than someone else because they shoplift and you don’t.

Plus, abortion strikes at the very core of what it means to be “pro-life.” It strikes at the very core of what it means to be human. How can society progress towards a pro-life culture if it promotes the bloody killing of an innocent child in his/her mother’s womb? If a doctor sees a patient who has an ear infection, but is suffering a heart attack, he’s going to deal with the heart attack first.
 
IWhy do you think that rape (and if applicable, incest) are reasons to allow for an abortion? What does an abortion do to help either of these situations. :whistle:
First of all, I have to start with: The misconception that the Church allows Plan B in the case of rape is just that, a misconception. The Church forbids Plan B even in the case of rape. Those Catholic hospitals who are offering Plan B in the case of rape are either testing for pregnancy first, testing for ovulation first, or not following the Church’s teaching. Without this forum I probably wouldn’t have ever known this fact. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, but whether one agrees with that teaching or not, it’s our responsibilty as Catholics to make sure our fellow Catholics understand what the Church teaches. In order to make a truly informed choice, you have to have all the facts. With that in mind, here is what I think about it:

I thank God every day that I can’t imagine being in that position of being raped and worrying about getting pregnant as a result of it. IMOHO, It takes a special person to try not to prevent a pregnacy in the case of rape. To me it seems like that would a reflexive form of self-defense in which the urge would be hard to overcome. It’s an innate drive in us to try and protect ourselves from harm in all forms.

If a woman gets raped and goes to the hospital immediately for medical care, I can understand why a woman would take Plan B to avoid conception. Considering that conception actually takes time to happen, and doesn’t happen immediately after sexual activity, I can understand why racing against time to prevent conception from happening in the first place is worth the risk. In addition, in a time of crisis, a woman probably most likely will not know where in her cycle she is anyway. And by the time she tries to figure it out, it may be too late. So since I think it’s human nature and natural to attempt to protect oneself, including protect oneself from an unwanted pregnancy due to rape, I understand the gamble one is willing to take to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. In this case, the intent is to avoid a pregnancy, not to terminate one. Yes, there is a risk that it will become and termination and not a prevention, but again, I understand the willingness to take that risk in the case of rape.

If she has delayed medical intervention for whatever reason (for fear or shame, or whatever circumstances lead to a delay), then I think she lost her opportunity, and the chances are much higher that she will actually terminate a pregnancy rather than prevent one. In that case, she’s going to avoid implantation rather than conception. Therefore, IMOHO once that opprotunity is gone, that woman is not racing against time to avoid conception, but rather, at this point she is opting for an abortion for sure.

Now I’m not saying that the woman who gets raped, and chooses not to have Plan B is masochistic, or doesn’t care about herself. I’m just saying that it’s only natural to attempt to protect oneself, not only from the violation iteself, but the results of that violation.

Everyone is different in what they can take. Some women who get pregnant as a result of rape could look on that as a good thing resulting from an evil event. They can look on that child as a blessing that turned a sinful situation to one of goodness. Others would be constantly reminded of that rape, and the situation is just going to compound on itself and cause more harm than “good”. For some women, it’s not as simple as waiting it out for nine months as a baby grows inside her, laboring to give birth and giving up the baby for adoption. Rather it’s a terrible emotional and mental hardship. Not everyone is going to view this child as a blessing. For some, it’s going to compound their hardship. That’s a fact.

I just don’t see how someone can claim that aborting after being pregnant due to rape causes emotional damage - Not anymore than anything else following the rape during the healing process. I’ve asked this forum once if anyone had any research regarding this claim and no one responded. So I guess there isn’t any? However, I don’t see how either choice will make post-rape healing “easier”. But I can understand how one choice might make it much more difficult for one to become whole again, than the other, depending on the person. And by choice, I mean either. In other words, I can also understand how having an abortion post-rape could also make the situation more traumatic for some women.

Ok, I’ll admit it, I’m not going to lie: I personally don’t get exactly why they would blatantly have an abortion (post rape) after knowing full well they are indeed pregnant. However, I’m NOT willing to judge them. And I’m not going to brow-beat them.

But trying to prevent it in the first place, I can understand that.
 
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