Any ex-pro-life staunchly pro-choicers out there?

[vera_dicere]

Yes. I agree that PREVENTING a life is wonderful! I also understand that.

The question I have for those who are willing to try to answer

How does having an Abortion UN-RAPE a person? If the child’s life has begun, how does the process of having an abortion un-do the damage that is part and parcel of a rape… one of the most voilent acts ever?

The pro-abortion movement is based on lies, falsehoods and exaggerations. The rape question is one such pile of BS. It is designed to make Pro-Life people cringe and not answer, making them look illogical and unable to defend their position fully, or it makes them look inconsistent if they say “well, ah… okay then”.

The pro-abortion movement relies heavily on this argument to try and win converts, but the numbers do not support their lies. 98% of abortions are for social reasons. About <1 - 2% of rapes end in pregnancy. And according to victims vs. victors, a study on this very issue, about 60% of women did not abort, and 80% approximate of those who did abort reported it was the wrong thing to do for them.

This argument proves the pro-abortion movement is not about women. How many rape victims have aborted because they feared the social belief that abortion is what rape victims want? Women who are raped and pregnant feel that if they don’t abort then people will not believe their claim of rape. It puts women into a terrible situation where they truly have no choice. I know a few people who were pregnant from rape, one aborted and regretted it, and ended up mentally unwell and has yet to recover almost 15 years later, she aborted because she was afraid if she didn’t, people would think she was a liar because, “who wants to keep their rapist’s baby?” The other woman kept her pregnancy and put the child up for adoption, but the police said there was no point pushing the charges against the rapist because keeping that pregnancy would look bad. She had too choose between her child’s life and getting a conviction for a rapist.

How are any of those things pro-woman? Its absolutely deplorable that a movement that claims to be about women woudl so viciously undermine them in order to keep abortion legal.

 

[Rence]

So I take it that, in your opinion, and abortion is not an act of violence, nor does it cause injury. Correct.

Incorrect That’s not what I said. Abortion can be an act of violence and can cause pain and injury, especially after implantation. Abortion would NOT be a choice for me.

WHY do you believe abortion is wrong? What is it that, for you, makes abortion a ‘bad thing’, or wrong?

According to the CC, a life is involved from the moment of conception, and I believe that as well. Therefore after conception, abortion would not be an option for me.

I think part of the misunderstanding is that you are tossing cucumbers in with the applesauce If the pregnancy is prevented, there is no abortion. I’m not talking about the prevention of a pregnancy, but the end of an existing pregnancy.

**No, the misunderstanding was not with me. I understand what I am saying. The misundertanding, I think, is because people are so upset and high-strung about this subject that I don’t believe they are reading my posts (and probably others) in their entirety. I think they’re upset and emotional and coming to passages that upset them further, and then they stop reading them. My point EXACTLY is that if pregnancy is prevented, there is no abortion. If you’re taking the time to respond to my posts and taking the time to try and understand what I’m saying (probably to tell me why I’m in err, and that’s okay, I understand completely), then please take the time to read this so that you understand what I am trying to say:

From Post #100
If a woman gets raped and goes to the hospital immediately for medical care, I can understand why a woman would take Plan B to avoid conception. Considering that conception actually takes time to happen, and doesn’t happen immediately after sexual activity, I can understand why racing against time to prevent conception from happening in the first place is worth the risk**. In addition, in a time of crisis, a woman probably most likely will not know where in her cycle she is anyway. And by the time she tries to figure it out, it may be too late. So since I think it’s human nature and natural to attempt to protect oneself, including protect oneself from an unwanted pregnancy due to rape, I understand the gamble one is willing to take to avoid an unwanted pregnancy. In this case, the intent is to avoid a pregnancy, not to terminate one. Yes, there is a risk that it will become and termination and not a prevention, but again, I understand the willingness to take that risk in the case of rape.

If she has delayed medical intervention for whatever reason (for fear or shame, or whatever circumstances lead to a delay), then I think she lost her opportunity, and the chances are much higher that she will actually terminate a pregnancy rather than prevent one. In that case, she’s going to avoid implantation rather than conception. Therefore, IMOHO once that opprotunity is gone, that woman is not racing against time to avoid conception, but rather, at this point she is opting for an abortion for sure.

And from post #110:
I believe abortion is wrong. However, *I believe, with the information I have available to me, that if one acts quickly enough, the odds are greater that taking Plan B in the case of rape is more likely to prevent conception, than it would prevent implantation. And the reason is because it takes time to conceive (several hours). It’s not automatic thing. In other words, I would understand a rape victim taking the chances with Plan B within a few hours of rape, to prevent becoming pregnant. I would understand her taking that gamble to further protect herself. The primary intention is to prevent pregancy, not terminate it. *Once a person waits too long, that primary intention isn’t prevention anymore. And I said that in my above post as well.

 

[Rence]

Hey, hey hey!

Let us NOT attack those with the opinions that were ASKED for in this thread!
Rence is answering, I believe honestly, what his/her opinion is.

**Thank you, I appreciate it, and yes, I’m answering honestly. **

Sidenote: I believe that all the YEARS of people being told, repeatedly, ‘except in the case of rape or incest’, that children that are the product of rape or incest are seen as less human.

Well, I can’t speak for others, but I don’t believe any child, whether a product of rape or incest or not, is less than human.

**However, I believe, that some women have it in them to turn the situation into something positive, and can see that baby as the goodness that came out of the bad. While others would consider a pregnancy brought on by rape as only an additional violation, and continuation of pain. Everyone is different. And I think that imposing a pregnancy on a women who was raped, and telling her how she should feel, and what she should do, is highly insensitive and (with all due respect) very ignorant. And it really doesn’t matter if you are a victim of rape or know someone who is. Everyone handles their hardships differently. For some women, it would be too much to take emotionally and mentally. **

Just a thought.

 

[Magdalena09]

Here is the thing:

If you know that life begins at conception, there is absolutely no excuse for abortion.
If you know that life does NOT being at conception, there is nothing wrong with abortion…but no one KNOWS that like does NOT begin at conception.

So then it becomes:

If you don’t know when life begins, then isn’t it better to err on the side of life?

To me, that negates the argument you are arguing, Rence. Which is that if a woman “hurries” and takes Plan B, she is probably only preventing conception, and that’s okay. Why would you take that risk if you are pro-life? Plus, after a rape, it takes TIME to go to a hospital emergency room and be seen.

It’s not uncommon to wait an hour or two to be seen in an emergency room. We had to take my niece recently and we were the ONLY people there… yet we still had to wait 30 minutes.

 

[Magdalena09]

However, I believe, that some women have it in them to turn the situation into something positive, and can see that baby as the goodness that came out of the bad. While others would consider a pregnancy brought on by rape as only an additional violation, and continuation of pain. Everyone is different. And I think that imposing a pregnancy on a women who was raped, and telling her how she should feel, and what she should do, is highly insensitive and (with all due respect) very ignorant. And it really doesn’t matter if you are a victim of rape or know someone who is. Everyone handles their hardships differently. For some women, it would be too much to take emotionally and mentally.

Of course everyone is different. But to say it really doesn’t matter if you have been raped or know someone who has is dumb. Who is going to know more, the person who has actually experienced it, or people who simply think they can imagine how it would feel?

And no one is suggesting that anyone tell a woman in this situation how she should feel. No one. Straw man argument, there.

 

[Rence]

Of course everyone is different. But to say it really doesn’t matter if you have been raped or know someone who has is dumb. Who is going to know more, the person who has actually experienced it, or people who simply think they can imagine how it would feel?

Exactly. So if a rape victim feels that she cannot handle it, who are we to insist that she can? You made my point, thanks FINALLY, someone got it!

 

[Rence]

Here is the thing:

If you know that life begins at conception, there is absolutely no excuse for abortion.
If you know that life does NOT being at conception, there is nothing wrong with abortion…but no one KNOWS that like does NOT begin at conception.

So then it becomes:

If you don’t know when life begins, then isn’t it better to err on the side of life?

To me, that negates the argument you are arguing, Rence. Which is that if a woman “hurries” and takes Plan B, she is probably only preventing conception, and that’s okay. Why would you take that risk if you are pro-life? Plus, after a rape, it takes TIME to go to a hospital emergency room and be seen.

It’s not uncommon to wait an hour or two to be seen in an emergency room. We had to take my niece recently and we were the ONLY people there… yet we still had to wait 30 minutes.

in nursing school I was told It takes up to 36 hours. Until proven otherwise, that’s what I’ll go by, which negates your rationale. But that’s okay, everyone has to follow what they believe and what’s right for them. I completely support your decision. You have the right to follow your beliefs.

However, some women would take that risk despite being pro-life to avoid the continuance of pain and suffering endured from being raped. And I understand that. For you, it wouldn’t be worth the risk. But for others, it is well worth the risk. And I repect their rights.

You do understand that abortions due to rape are like 1% don’t you? While trying to beat me into submitting to your opinion (which probably won’t happen), I would think your energies would probably be served better by combating the 99% of abortions that are the result of poor judgement…but I could be wrong here

 

[kage_ar]

As Catholics we cannot “choose” to throw away Church teaching. The Church teaches life begins at conception. Period. We cannot call ourselves Catholic and not believe this, and not LIVE what we believe.

 

[Madaglan]

Well, I’ve already answered that, twice. But okay: It’s not consensual. It’s an act of violence. It’s not a choice that the rape victim made. And women have the right to protect themselves from further injury. As I said above: “Everyone is different in what they can take. Some women who get pregnant as a result of rape could look on that as a good thing resulting from an evil event. They can look on that child as a blessing that turned a sinful situation to one of goodness. Others would be constantly reminded of that rape, and the situation is just going to compound on itself and cause more harm than “good”. For some women, it’s not as simple as waiting it out for nine months as a baby grows inside her, laboring to give birth and giving up the baby for adoption. Rather it’s a terrible emotional and mental hardship. Not everyone is going to view this child as a blessing. For some, it’s going to compound their hardship.”

I believe abortion is wrong. However, I believe, with the information I have available to me, that if one acts quickly enough, the odds are greater that taking Plan B in the case of rape is more likely to prevent conception, than it would prevent implantation. And the reason is because it takes time to conceive (several hours). It’s not automatic thing. In other words, I would understand a rape victim taking the chances with Plan B within a few hours of rape, to prevent becoming pregnant. I would *understand *her taking that gamble to further protect herself. The primary intention is to prevent pregancy, not terminate it. Once a person waits too long, that primary intention isn’t prevention anymore. And I said that in my above post as well.

And please note, I was only referring to rape, not incest. I don’t have enough understanding of it to talk about incest. So I’m really not prepared to debate it. I’m sure someone else would be willing to tackle that one sometime.

I hope that answers your question.

Abortion does not heal or remove emotional and mental hardship.

The source of the emotional and mental hardship in the woman is not the child, but a body, heart and mind that has suffered wrongful injury and violation. Even were the woman to have an abortion, her emotions and thoughts would still reflect this woundedness. And even were she to remove what she views as a physical reminder, subsequent emptiness too may painfully remind her of a fullness that could have been.

A good percentage of women who have been raped develop Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. As in the case with depression, which often accompanies PTSD, thoughts and actions are not often rational or in the best interest of the sufferer.

These women need help, but not the kind that the abortionist can provide.

 

[Apryl]

Rence:
Ok… with the way that you ‘quoted’ me, it’s really hard to quote you in the reply… which is very helpful when looking through a thread like this one.

That said, the misundersntanding, no matter on who’s part, is because the question is only related to the ending of a life.

Sadly, far too many people think that it’s ok to end a life when the situation surrounding the conception is less than ideal.

 

[Apryl]

Exactly. So if a rape victim feels that she cannot handle it, who are we to insist that she can?

• We are people
• We are humans
• We are Americans
• We are people who determine legislature to set up laws
• We are educators who help people to learn so they can do better
• We are posters on CAF

I’m sure we are some others, as well… but this should be a good start.

Just like those kids who say ‘I am ready to have sex’, do they really know? I don’t think so. You can’t say, ‘this is the best summer I will ever have in my life’. You can NOT know the future. You can know what you believe, but you can not know what you will know.

And because we don’t know the future, and because there are others who have lived their life and because they have lived, and experienced, they can look back and give a better description of what another is looking at facing.

Who can be more empathetic? Those who expect to have your experiences? Or those who have had the experiences?

You asked.

 

[DebCat129]

But that’s okay, everyone has to follow what they believe and what’s right for them. I completely support your decision. You have the right to follow your beliefs.

Wow, it amazes me that people still believe this. This is not meant as an attack, just using your words as an example. I support you decision. You have the right to follow your beliefs… Well that’s what is called relativism…we become our own center of the universe, our own god, if you will, so we begin making decisions on what makes us feel good at that time.

Well, what is someone believed that…say their boss was inconvenient, or a nuisance or even worse a constant reminder of all things bad. So based on your above statement, I have the right to do to my boss what ever I want, for he is MY boss. Lets say I feel he has no right to live because he makes my life miserable, and I feel tortured by him. You support my decision to eliminate him, because its what I believe is right. You said you completely support such decisions, and I have the RIGHT to follow my beliefs!!!

This is insanity!!! The problem is most of us are cowards, and know what is right, but don’t have to backbone to say the truth, because we fear what people may think of us. The only person you need fear is God himself. We are not gods, we don’t decide its okay to kill our children in what should be the safest place in the universe for them, simply because the law says its okay, and we sure don’t support, or say we support someones erroneous beliefs, that makes you complicit! Do you want to be held accountable for supporting someones wrong beliefs. How are you going to account for that, what justifications are you going to make for that, cause in the end they will only be excuses, and I’m sorry but that wont get you into Heaven, the Lord is very clear.

Don’t be afraid of things and people of this world, this is TEMPORARY. Be concerned with ETERNITY!

There is Usurped Authority, and Authentic Authority… Look it up…see what the Catholic Church teaches. Don’t be afraid…don’t be afraid…I’m not!

Ive been in heated conversations with friends and family…some became so mad at me that they did not talk to me for month on end…but with prayer and fasting, they came around…you see we need to plant seeds of truth, and I promise they will sprout and flourish…some take longer than others…some don’t take long at all.

FOR THE GLORY OF GOD! PEACE BE WITH YOU ALL!

 

[Magdalena09]

in nursing school I was told It takes up to 36 hours.

Then you should understand that UP TO 36 hours does not mean that it will take 36 hours.

As others have said, it can happen rather quickly (2 hours) and as you have stated, take as long as 36 hours, and I have heard longer.

But the fact that it MAY take a long time doesn’t mean it WILL.

Err on the side of life.

 

[Magdalena09]

Wow, it amazes me that people still believe this. This is not meant as an attack, just using your words as an example. I support you decision. You have the right to follow your beliefs… Well that’s what is called relativism…we become our own center of the universe, our own god, if you will, so we begin making decisions on what makes us feel good at that time.

Well, what is someone believed that…say their boss was inconvenient, or a nuisance or even worse a constant reminder of all things bad. So based on your above statement, I have the right to do to my boss what ever I want, for he is MY boss. Lets say I feel he has no right to live because he makes my life miserable, and I feel tortured by him. You support my decision to eliminate him, because its what I believe is right. You said you completely support such decisions, and I have the RIGHT to follow my beliefs!!!

This is insanity!!! The problem is most of us are cowards, and know what is right, but don’t have to backbone to say the truth, because we fear what people may think of us. The only person you need fear is God himself. We are not gods, we don’t decide its okay to kill our children in what should be the safest place in the universe for them, simply because the law says its okay, and we sure don’t support, or say we support someones erroneous beliefs, that makes you complicit! Do you want to be held accountable for supporting someones wrong beliefs. How are you going to account for that, what justifications are you going to make for that, cause in the end they will only be excuses, and I’m sorry but that wont get you into Heaven, the Lord is very clear.

Don’t be afraid of things and people of this world, this is TEMPORARY. Be concerned with ETERNITY!

There is Usurped Authority, and Authentic Authority… Look it up…see what the Catholic Church teaches. Don’t be afraid…don’t be afraid…I’m not!

Ive been in heated conversations with friends and family…some became so mad at me that they did not talk to me for month on end…but with prayer and fasting, they came around…you see we need to plant seeds of truth, and I promise they will sprout and flourish…some take longer than others…some don’t take long at all.

FOR THE GLORY OF GOD! PEACE BE WITH YOU ALL!

AMEN!!!

 

[PetersKeys]

You can’t be “pro-choice” and truly Catholic. A dissenter or heretic, yes. But a Catholic in full communion, no…Sadly there will always be tares among the field, even in the Church. Luckily they have no power of the Church itself. The protestant communities gave them power, especially the Anglican Church, and look what happened.

 

[bpbasilphx]

\I think that outlawing abortion will not olve the problem, women will still have abortions ut instead of going to a doctor in a sterile environment they will do with coat hangers or other dangerous and scary things.\

**The chop shops have standards up to the best back alleys:

Reusing disposable plastic cannulas and curettes

Rats and roaches in their treatment rooms

Physicans who are not board certified, have malpractice insurance, or hospital admitting privileges.**

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

Mental illnesses and disabilities are not on the level of not having a consciousness at all.

If someone is brain dead, I think they are no longer a person. I am not sure at what age babies start to have thoughts/become self aware. My own earliest memories are from about 2 years old.

Until the self awareness is there, I wouldn’t call it a person, but that’s my personal opinion.

Hmmm I’m just trying to understand. Btw, it is because of the nature of brain development that you don’t remember prior to 2 years old. Basic human development. In fact, Nova did a great episode about this.

So, to follow your logic, when I was in an abusive relationship with my addict ex-husband, broke, alone and scared; I should have killed my 1 year old daughter because she wasn’t self-aware and would have had a hard life with me as a single mom? looking back, since she’s a recovering addict, do you think I should have? Was I evil for letting her live? What a terrible mother I must be. wait. I wouldn’t be then, would I? Of course, I would. Sorry this just doesn’t fly for me.

Kind of follows another persons logic. They can’t feel 'cause the nerves aren’t fully attached. Well, paraplegics can’t feel , shall we kill them, too?

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

I think there is a fundamental disconnect between some pro-life positions and actions. For example, if you think that the unborn are truly persons, why aren’t you out there all the time fighting for them? Why aren’t you physically restraining abortion providers or women who have abortions to save lives? Why aren’t people who kill abortion providers praised as defenders of life? We certianly would have praised anyone who killed Hitler, had anyone managed to do so.

Thank you for your viewpoint, though I wholeheartedly disagree. I am concerned that those who have been asked for their opinions will not share honestly for fear of attack. You seem pretty strong, though.

You aren’t surprised that no one will agree about the women losing her sight because you truly do not understand our position. If you did, there would be no question that one human life is more important that another’s vision, especially when that life is helpless and dependent. What kind of animal kills their offspring? What does that say about us?

As to people out there fighting, there ARE people out there. We try to pray quietly in front of clinics we get harassed and even arrested, it can be scary out there. There are horrible things said and done every day. 25,000 people walked for life last weekend in SF and not a peep in the news, but they ran a story about the movie theater in Elk Grove being evacuated due to a fire that turned out to be just smoke and no big deal anyway. Slow news day? Not to us, but pro-life doesn’t get press, especially peaceful ones. If someone does something more extreme to get press we are positively demonized. Can’t win in the secular media.

People who kill abortion providers do not get praised because (where’ve you been?) we value LIFE. All life is precious. Does that mean that you respect Scott Roeder? He has no support whatsoever from the Pro-Life groups. Love, compassion and understanding, yes, but support? No way. All human life is precious.

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

I am an ex pro-choicer who is now staunchly pro-life… took me 2 or 3 years of research and thinking to get to that point.

God bless you! We are honored to have you with us.

 

[Fidelis_Unus]

I don’t have children, so I don’t know how I would feel about them. The only other person I might consider making such a sacrifice for is my mom, but to be honest in the end I would probably choose not to.

Perhaps you did, but they were killed.

The situations I am mostly thinking of are where a pregnancy would be a threat to the health or life of the mother.

WHy do we spend so much time on extremely rare scenarios?