any former mormons out there?

[Allweather]

Thank you for this and you previous comedic relief even though I can see the serious thread in what you say. You cracking me up. I sure wish I could get a yes or no answer to a serious and simple question? Let me ask you, Do you believe God was once a man?

God was never a man, except when he enfleshed himself as our Savior, Jesus Christ. This Mormon notion of God having evolved from a manform into a godform is fiction. IMO, this whole thing about God having evolved, and its extension, that men may become gods like unto the Almighty, is blasphemy, related to the original sin of Adam and Eve.

 

[truthsilence]

Uh, the reason you failed at understanding Mormonism is your obsession with unimportant minutae. It’s called “looking beyond the mark”. Take out your rusty old Book of Mormon and turn to Jacob 4:14.

If you can’t or won’t accept basic Mormon teaching, fine, just say so, but don’t try to justify your unbelief by complaining about things that don’t really matter. Please be honest with yourself. Are you trying to tell me if only you could understand this doctrine then you would jump back to ride the LDS train? Can you really, honestly say that? Can any of you?

rmc, Just what is “basic Mormon teaching”? I’ve supplied a Student Manual for your review and commentary, and all I’ve gotten back is “Its not official doctrine”, and I’m “complaining about things that don’t really matter”.

No, I don’t accept that God was ever a man. I don’t believe I’ll need special handshakes to enter into Heaven. There’s nothing there to understand. I will never “jump back to ride the LDS Train”. Never. I’m finally home, and very, very grateful to God for it. I finally have spiritual peace, after all those many years of trying to make sense of LDS claims, and trying to reconcile those claims with what the Holy Spirit was telling me. Is that, perhaps, where you are as well? I was quite the “Mormon Apologist” for many years. All that created for me was a sad state of cognitive dissonance. (grateful to be free of that cloud, also)

This is what I do understand. God entered into history in the person of Jesus Christ, the Savior of the World. He taught simple principals of love and forgiveness. He commissioned his disciples to preach his Gospel to the ends of the earth. He asks all of us as his followers, to care for the poor and the needy. The gates of hell did not prevail against the Church he established, as was promised. Thanks be to God.

Take out and read your rusty old New Testament. Listen to the words of Our Lord. There you will find Eternal Life.

 

[truthsilence]

By the way. Who you callin a “hater”? eh?:ehh:

 

[majick275]

now you see the truth. Mormons purposely don’t have “official” doctrine publicly. Anyone who was a member of that church knows what was taught as doctrine. We can prove it by referencing the lesson manuals on the LDS website. Attempting to dodge by claiming unofficial doctrine is to undermine the most unique and distinctive element of mormonism… The claim to a living prophet who guides the “true” church by direct revelation. To dodge the issue by claiming it’s unimportant, minutiae or “beyond the mark” is not only to refute the claims of Joseph Smith (the only mormon prophet to have claimed to meet God in person and the most prolific writer of canonized mormon scripture) it contradcits teh most important element of LDS doctrine. “The plan of salvation”. That is what “eternal progression” is all about. It is the ultimate goal of mormonism as stated in their scriptures and reinforced by their temple teachings.

Mormonism is very clear on the nature of God and man both. It is also very explicit on the purpose of our lives, where we are going and where we came from.

The mormon religion is NOT about worshiping or praising God. It is not about being “saved” nor the beatific vision. It is about perpetuating the Satanic myth that God is just one of us who “made it” and that we can do the same thing. Mormonism teaches that we are literal offspring of God and thus embryonic Gods ourselves. mormonism teaches that we “earn” our exaltation. That we just have to do certain things and we “achieve” our potential as Gods…just like our fahter before us.

For mormons to dodge this is common but still somewhat less than honest even when considering the “milk before meat” that most use to justify it. Being mormon is not just family home evening and food storage, it is about making it to the celestial kingdom where you become a God. (for men at least. they are kings and priests to our God when he becomes a god of gods. women are to be queens and priestesses to their husbands… along with the other wives that will be given to worthy men)

If facing this truth publicly is “boring” to mormons then so be it but it isn’t “hating” nor is it wrong to keep repeating the “same old arguments” if they are true.

What purpose will it serve? Only God can say but one who believes in the truth can’t just overlook it nor remain silent in the face of false teachings. And maybe…just maybe…someone her who is mormon or considering becoming mormon will finally “get it” and leave behind the serpents tempting “ye shall be as Gods” and “that is how father gained his powers” lies.

In any case amgid (now calling himself zerinus) cannot be allowed to make unchallenged statements that are so blasphemous (or deceitful, depending on the post)

We are used to mormons coming here trying various approaches to “proselytize” or at least attempt to “normalize” their religion (if not actually attempting validation) and most when faced with a steady stream of truth do become “bored” (or sometimes “offended”) that no one here seems to have any “new” truths to counter the “exciting” news of the LDS church. They usually leave then. Some are truly curious about Catholicism and stay here for interesting discussions that are informative to all. one (amgid/zerinus) stays to antagonize and insult because he claims “it’s fun”.

Whatever the case may be, There is in reality only ONE God…ever, anywhere. He gave us his word in sacred scripture in the form of the Bible. He gave us sacred tradition to provide the context necessary to understand it. He came in person (jesus) to establish his church as the guardian of his message so that it would be perpetuated until the end of the world. He never abandoned us nor has his church ever failed. That leaves us with the fact that the Catholic church is the one teaching the truth. repent and be baptized.

 

[Allweather]

I guess it’s time to bring out one of my missionary stories (you Catholics should totally be serving missions too you know!) We met with a JW family and were discussing whether or not it is possible to see God. We brought out scripture after scripture to “show” that this was not really a true teaching (JW’s believe it is not possible to see God). We thought we really had it clinched when we brought out

(Exodus 33:11)

But they stubbornly resisted the scripture (and a bucket more of similar ones) without any explanation. I think this is the ultimate end of any further discussion of doctrine with you Allweather. Perhaps it’s the Gladitor in you that wants to know which of the two of us will end up clinging to a belief they cannot explain but in my book that’s okay anyway.

I wouldn’t have a problem with door-to-door missions, if it weren’t already badly discredited by Mormons and JWs. As it is, door-to-door sales of religion is a joke. Mormons and JWs occupy priveleged status in this regard. I’m glad that Catholics don’t need to do that. We aren’t selling our religion. We don’t force people to tithe. We aren’t playing the numbers game.

Now, I think it is interesting that you describe your trying to convert JWs to Mormonism. I said earlier that I prefer the view from above. Though I actually am a nuts and bolts kind of guy, when it comes to religion I’m not very qualified to deal in nuts and bolts the way Nan is, or even the way you and Z are. I much prefer the overhead view. From overhead, I can see the truth of things. Jesus prayed that we would all be unified, that we would be one. He established his Church upon the Apostoles that he spent some 3 years cultivating. From above, I can clearly see who is in union with the Apostles, and who isn’t. Mormons aren’t. Neither are JWs. Neither are Protestants. What is the one thing that these three separated groups have in common? Antagonism towards the Catholic Church. That tells me an awful lot. Each group is at enmity with the other two, but all three are united in their antagonism towards the Catholic Church. I believe this is one very strong evidence that the Catholic Church is the true one, and the others are false. It is this disunity that testifies to the falsity. Now, when you start getting into nuts and bolts, such as this thing about God having evolved from a man, then we can see some of the results of the disunity, the lack of humble submission to the authority that Jesus established in his Church. Groups that are not in unity, that are not in submission to authority, naturally become disordered in their theologies. If a Mormon, or a JW, or a run-of-the-mill Protestant were, for a few moments, to stop being hardheaded about his weird interpretations of Bible, and accept the authority of the Church, he then could really start to learn something important. Submission comes first. You used the phrase “they stubbornly resisted the scripture.” Stubborness. Not a good thing. I believe that YOU are also stubborn in your refusal to accept the true authority of Jesus in the form of the Catholic Church. This is why you are so confused about the Bible. You, like all Protestants, have taken the Bible out of the setting in which is was born and raised. You don’t even really believe the Bible is reliable. It is reliable for you only when you want to use it to pound a square peg into a round hole. Because for you the Bible exists apart from the Church that wrote it and interprets it, it is naturally unreliable, subject to human error, and in fact, because you’ve removed the Bible from its cradle, it actually IS unreliable for you. Obviously, it is unreliable for Mormons, because they have so many odd beliefs that use the Bible for support.

But the critical issue, over and above all else, is unity. You are not in unity with, or submission to, the authority set in place for you. That’s all anyone needs to know.

 

[geraldffff]

God was never a man, except when he enfleshed himself as our Savior, Jesus Christ. This Mormon notion of God having evolved from a manform into a godform is fiction. IMO, this whole thing about God having evolved, and its extension, that men may become gods like unto the Almighty, is blasphemy, related to the original sin of Adam and Eve.

See how easy that was for a Catholic, now why can’t you mormons be just as forthright.

 

[geraldffff]

See how easy that was for a Catholic, now why can’t you mormons be just as forthright.

majick275 and all weather thank you very much for your most recent comments. We once had a methodist come to our door and talked my wife in to taking a free bible and that was ok. He was not peddling religion like the two groups mentioned above selling their comic strips and dishonest movies. Ya but they did not answer the question do you believe that God was once a man? Yes or no please? What a cowardly silence to an honest question? Dear OP I think this gives you a wonderfull tool with which to defend your loved ones from these cowardly pagan invaders

 

[zerinus]

Actually, what I was hoping for was your commentary on Catholic teaching with regard to revelation. I quoted a section of the Catechism and asked for your commentary. . . . I was wondering how a Mormon reacts to Catholic teaching.

Which section of the Catechism or Catholic teaching are you referring to?

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

Which section of the Catechism or Catholic teaching are you referring to?

zerinus

Okay, I think I found it. I presume you are referring to this quote:

Christianity (all of it, not just Catholicism) teaches that public revelation is closed. This, from the Catechism:

1. Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church. Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment, as is the case in certain non-Christian religions and also in certain recent sects which base themselves on such “revelations.” (emphasis mine)

It seems to me that Mormonism is essentially the product of “revelation” which purports to “surpass or correct” (ie restore) the “Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment.” In doing so, it has deviated badly from this Revelation, and is no longer Christian by a good measure.

So, it is not correct to say that I “have nothing to contradict (Mormon beliefs).” The Church is clear on this. Read and heed.

Well we obviously disagree with it. What else do you want us to tell you?

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

Okay, I think I found it. I presume you are referring to this quote:

Well we obviously disagree with it. What else do you want us to tell you?

zerinus

When you say you “disagree with it,” are you saying you “disagree” with every aspect of #67?

Do you “disagree” with the fact that Christ is “the definitive revelation?”

If so, is this disagreement based upon a BITB? Or is there a substantive reasoning process at work in you, apart from feelings, which leads you to disagree?

 

[tundramom]

I can see that we’re not getting a straight answer from the Mormons here, so I’ll just go out on a limb and tell you all what I was taught as a Mormon.

First, a little background… I grew up in Utah Valley, where there were virtually no other people that I knew that were anything other than Mormon. I knew one boy in my high school who had been Catholic, but converted to Mormonism in our Senior year. My family has that heritage of crossing the plains in handcarts, moving from England and settling with the early saints in the Salt Lake Valley. I am the first, and only so-far, member of either side of my family who has escaped Mormonism.

I was taught that god was once a man… that we could aspire to become gods and goddesses ourselves if we were righteous enough. I remember sitting in a Seminary class (high school age kids are let out of school for an hour each day to attend) we were sitting between two mirrors and sat between them, like in the sealing rooms in the temple. We were told that either way you look that is how long you have “been”. You were pre-existant, the future of your immortal soul was up to you… you could become a god or you could reject the teachings and go “some other place”. I remember sitting there in awe with my fellow students while being shown by our teacher that god had a father and he had a father and so on and so on and so on… there was no end to the lineage of gods, and we were part of that lineage if we only accepted the teaching and pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps and did all we were asked to do.

Was I taught that god was once a man? YES!!!

Was I taught that I could become a goddess? YES!!!

in Christ
Steph

 

[zerinus]

When you say you “disagree with it,” are you saying you “disagree” with every aspect of#67?

I disagree with the part that you have highlighted.

Do you “disagree” with the fact that Christ is “the definitive revelation?”

I don’t know what is meant by “definitive revelation”. You have to explain that.

If so, is this disagreement based upon a BITB? Or is there a substantive reasoning process at work in you, apart from feelings, which leads you to disagree?

This disagreement is based on scripture. There is no biblical justification for such belief.

zerinus

 

[Karin]

I can see that we’re not getting a straight answer from the Mormons here, so I’ll just go out on a limb and tell you all what I was taught as a Mormon.

First, a little background… I grew up in Utah Valley, where there were virtually no other people that I knew that were anything other than Mormon. I knew one boy in my high school who had been Catholic, but converted to Mormonism in our Senior year. My family has that heritage of crossing the plains in handcarts, moving from England and settling with the early saints in the Salt Lake Valley. I am the first, and only so-far, member of either side of my family who has escaped Mormonism.

I was taught that god was once a man… that we could aspire to become gods and goddesses ourselves if we were righteous enough. I remember sitting in a Seminary class (high school age kids are let out of school for an hour each day to attend) we were sitting between two mirrors and sat between them, like in the sealing rooms in the temple. We were told that either way you look that is how long you have “been”. You were pre-existant, the future of your immortal soul was up to you… you could become a god or you could reject the teachings and go “some other place”. I remember sitting there in awe with my fellow students while being shown by our teacher that god had a father and he had a father and so on and so on and so on… there was no end to the lineage of gods, and we were part of that lineage if we only accepted the teaching and pulled ourselves up by our bootstraps and did all we were asked to do.

Was I taught that god was once a man? YES!!!

Was I taught that I could become a goddess? YES!!!

in Christ
Steph

Steph-
Thank you for sharing your experiences with us

 

[Nan_S]

Nan, about your comments on God’s existance outside of time. This was exactly how my sponsor explained it to me. It was a wonderful “a-ha” moment, when I finally “got it”.

To all my Catholic bretheren here who “get it” -

I want to profoundly than you all for the kind and encouraging comments you have said about my posts.

I walked away yesterday. I was written off as someone who wants to delve into incomprehensible deep theology and as someone who apparently couldn’t see my own hand in front of my face, after presenting what I thought was a simple answer to a certain scripture delimma (did the blind man sin?), and a certain simple theological conclusion (God is greater than everything, including time).

I realize now that some of the things I posted must have been so obvious, so reasonable, and so disturbing that to address them honestly could cause my confronter to have a crisis of faith.

I know how frightening a crisis of faith is. I understand why anyone who is deeply convinced of the truth as it has been presented to him would want to prevent that crisis at any cost, even if it means accepting his church leaders’ avoidance of issues and contradictory explanations for the faith he has been given.

We have people around us who would prefer to remain assured of their faith in simple, but rock-solid, ignorance. Even in the Catholic Church we have them. Saint Thérèse of Lisieux, the Little Flower, comes to mind. Blessed are our bretheren of simple faith; they may have as little capacity as a teacup, but it is completely overflowing. And cursed are those of us who struggle with great barrels that can never seem to be filled enough.

I myself had a crisis of faith as a teenager, when I was confronted with the writings of Erich von Danaken in his book “Chariots of the Gods”, in which I had to face the possibility that everything I had ever been taught, indeed the very core of my faith, could be wrong. I was in shock.

The result for me was a very unsettling several years when my church-going amounted to little more than “going through the motions.” Eventually, von Danaken was exposed as a fraud, and I realized that although he had alternate explanations for Jesus’ miracles (space aliens with advanced technology), he could never explain the ultimate origin of his aliens, nor where and how the universe itself came to be.

And that is how I realized that God must exist, how the universe literally demands a God who is so great that He can create everything that the universe itself can not create. The universe and time can change what already exists, but can not create itself out of nothing. Something greater than what we can sense with our five senses must be out there after all.

After that, it became a historical and scientific search to find out whether real religious truth existed, truth that was unchanging and provable, that did not tap-dance around uncomfortable issues, and that could stand up to the deep theological issues and hard questions with reliable, consistent answers.

The only place I found that truth to fully and completely exist is in the Catholic Church.

Again, a special thanks to my Catholic friends. You have encouraged me to continue.

Nan

 

[geraldffff]

Steph-
Thank you for sharing your experiences with us

YES, THANK YOU.I have repeated the question 'Do you (Mormons) believe that God was once a man" in this fourm several times. My main interest was to see if Mormons engage in honest discourse. To put it another way are they a reflection of the Jesus in the Bible. The only experiences I have had with Mormonism was in a movie they showed us at our house when my family lived in Oregon in about 1962. I have no memory of the content I was 11 years old. Of coarse I have watched parts of movies the LDS have put on TV and I have seen their comercials advertizing their books. In an earlier post Z indicated he was just playing a game not a serious seeker of Truth. Z’s failure to answer a serious question is an indication that in fact Z’s talk about The Almighty is just a mockery of a very serious issue. Of coarse rmcmullan lack of response lead’s me to the conclusion that it is not just one individual’s insinceity that’s involve here. Still I find it difficult to base my opinion of anothers belief system and practial value of on two insincere individuals. It might be also a case of the modern generations access to many choices vs my generations lack of a multitude of choices. I think asking for a yes and no answer is fair. How ever it would be nice to know if there are sincere persons in this group if Orin Hatch or the like might decide to run for a nation office. I could in no way hate Mormons but I am rather disgusted by these two

 

[Allweather]

I don’t know what is meant by “definitive revelation”. You have to explain that.

zerinus

Well, lessee… I expect you know what revelation means, seeing as how your church is awash in new revelations, some of which apparently cancel out old revelations. “Definitive.” Here is how my cheap Webster’s dictionary defines “definitive:”

““1: serving to provide a final solution or to end a situation a definitive victory
2 : authoritative and apparently exhaustive a definitive edition
3 a : serving to define or specify precisely definitive laws b : serving as a perfect example : QUINTESSENTIAL a definitive bourgeois
4 : fully differentiated or developed a definitive organ
5 of a postage stamp : issued as a regular stamp for the country or territory in which it is to be used
synonyms see CONCLUSIVE”” (we can ignore the one about postage stamps)

Jesus Christ is THE DEFINITIVE REVELATION of God to mankind.

In what way is this important to us? One example: Let’s say that some guy poses as a prophet. He claims to have occasional visits from God and various other beings. He claims to get frequent information directly from God, often after he requests it of God. He comes up with a “revelation” the gist of which is that men must have multiple wives in order to attain to the ultimate heaven. Looking to Jesus, as well as centuries of practice in the Church which Jesus established, it is easy to see that this so-called “revelation” is an outlandish, immoral, even criminal thing. We can therefore know that, A. The revelation is false and that, B. The prophet who gave it is also false.

 

[Allweather]

This disagreement is based on scripture. There is no biblical justification for such belief.

zerinus

Are you claiming that there is no Biblical justification for the belief that Jesus is the DEFINITIVE REVELATION of God to mankind?

 

[zerinus]

Well, lessee… I expect you know what revelation means, seeing as how your church is awash in new revelations, some of which apparently cancel out old revelations. “Definitive.” Here is how my cheap Webster’s dictionary defines “definitive:”

““1: serving to provide a final solution or to end a situation a definitive victory
2 : authoritative and apparently exhaustive a definitive edition
3 a : serving to define or specify precisely definitive laws b : serving as a perfect example : QUINTESSENTIAL a definitive bourgeois
4 : fully differentiated or developed a definitive organ
5 of a postage stamp : issued as a regular stamp for the country or territory in which it is to be used
synonyms see CONCLUSIVE”” (we can ignore the one about postage stamps)

Jesus Christ is THE DEFINITIVE REVELATION of God to mankind.

In that sense of the term, Jesus has always been the definitive revelation since the creation of the world, and will be to the end of time. He was the one through whom revelation came to the ancient prophets recorded in the OT. He is also the one through whom revelation came to NT prophets after His death, resurrection, and ascension to heaven. There were prophets and revelators in the Christian church after He came, just as there had been before He came. Are you telling me that there were no prophets after Jesus? If you think so, then you don’t know your Bible. Have a look at Acts 13:1; 15:32; 21:10. There were prophets and revelators after Christ came. Not only there were prophets after Christ came; it is also prophesied that there would be (see Rev 11:10). So if the object of that rigmarole was to try convince us that there should be no more prophets or revelations from God after Christ came, that shoots down your paper aeroplane without a fight. Of course there were, and there would be. Joseph Smith was no different from the prophets that have always been. He received his revelations from the same source that they did, which was Jesus Christ.

In what way is this important to us? One example: Let’s say that some guy poses as a prophet. He claims to have occasional visits from God and various other beings. He claims to get frequent information directly from God, often after he requests it of God. He comes up with a “revelation” the gist of which is that men must have multiple wives in order to attain to the ultimate heaven. Looking to Jesus, as well as centuries of practice in the Church which Jesus established, it is easy to see that this so-called “revelation” is an outlandish, immoral, even criminal thing. We can therefore know that, A. The revelation is false and that, B. The prophet who gave it is also false.

Now you are entering into a completely different ball game. You are trying to tell me that Joseph Smith could not be a true prophet because his teachings contradict the teachings of Jesus Christ. The answer of course is that they don’t. Joseph Smith didn’t say that “men must have multiple wives in order to attain to the ultimate heaven”. Telling lies about Joseph Smith, either intentionally or through pure ignorance, isn’t going to further your cause any.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

Now you are entering into a completely different ball game. You are trying to tell me that Joseph Smith could not be a true prophet because his teachings contradict the teachings of Jesus Christ. The answer of course is that they don’t. Joseph Smith didn’t say that “men must have multiple wives in order to attain to the ultimate heaven”. Telling lies about Joseph Smith, either intentionally or through pure ignorance, isn’t going to further your cause any.

zerinus

Fair enough, I probably heard wrong, and have made a mistake. Perhaps you’d indulge us and tell exactly what Joseph Smith DID say and teach about plural marriage. Thanks.

 

[geraldffff]

Thanks Nan, I found your testimony about your ‘crisis of faith" and a “crisis of faith” very compelling. I appreciate very much the posters on here who are so talented at putting their thoughts and knowledge in to the written word. To name a few Allweather, Karin,and truthsilence. After reading your last post I went on my daily two mile walk in the Ice and snow of the far northern part of. Minn. ( a seasonal testimony to death an ressurection of life in general)I reviewed my crisis’s of faith when my favorite of six brothers was trying to get me to see the JW’s way. I remmber asking my self ‘Who Jesus was and would he lie to me or decieve me in anyway’ Either he was a blowhard, liar or telling the absolute truth. Seemed like of a 50/50 choice. What the world says and what Jesus says. Order or chaos. Be kind or don’t give a care. His words at face value or nothing with face value. I have an absolute faith Jesus is the only hope of mankind. Belief in the Church is another story, priests that abuse children. A mother that baptized he children into the Catholic faith but was unsure of what she believed. Even giving ear to mormons and Jw’s at times. A celfcentered unbeliving father. The domineering bullying Catholic teachers I had in high school, Mr X that came to class smelling of alchol, pulled my hair and at times was in the church pew behind me smelling of beer. Catholic classmates, alter boys, who bullied and tormented and lead groups of tormenters. The red lettered words in the bible, what Jesus said! No mistaking it, what he started then must not end before the end of time or upon encountering the gates of hell. No mistaking Peter who was to feed and lead his lambs and sheep, had his crisis’s of faith, was a man of faults NIV Luke 5:8
When Simon Peter saw this, he fell at Jesus’ knees and said, “Go away from me, Lord; I am a sinful man!” and Thomas too was a man of faults and unbelief NIV John 20:26A week later his disciples were in the house again, and Thomas was with them. Though the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 27Then he said to Thomas, “Put your finger here; see my hands. Reach out your hand and put it into my side. Stop doubting and believe.”
28Thomas said to him, “My Lord and my God!”
29Then Jesus told him, “Because you have seen me, you have believed; blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.” They all deserted him but I wonder how many others had a specific crisis’s of faith". Praise Jesus in the name of the Father Son and Holy Spirit.