any former mormons out there?

[zerinus]

Ah, yes, now the magician is revealed for what he is.

That means the magic will no longer work. The skeptics are on to you.

Apolyton Civilization:

LOL

Nan

You got that one wrong I am afraid. I looked at that site, and it actually says Zernius, not zerinus. Bad luck! Try again!

zerinus

 

[rmcmullan]

On this I must agree, it has to make sense both ways, both spiritually and intellectually (in the heart and the mind). And I’m glad to hear about your fiance’s BITB, I’ll bet she’s a good person. And I also bet we’d both appreciate it if you could be a bit kinder to Mormons, at least verbally. Some of that was harsh.

I know this board attracts what I’d call Not a cross-section of Catholicism. They’re probably better informed and like to reason and debate. They trust their abilities in those arenas. But everyone has their intellectual limit. They’re prone to errors in memory and judgement, they lack information, they’re swayed unfairly by emotion or loyalties. Likewise, people’s spiritual capacities are limited too. They’re prone to many of the same things, can be weakened by sin and temptation and, like our bodies grow weak when neglected. Despite their limitations, they’re all we have to discover truth with. The spirit however can be “quickened” by God and should at least be an equal partner.

 

[Nan_S]

You got that one wrong I am afraid. I looked at that site, and it actually says Zernius, not zerinus. Bad luck! Try again!

zerinus

You’re right. It still sounds good, tho. The Romans win.

Actually, the one I googled with the correct spelling was funnier, although a bit more insulting. And I like you too much for that.

But, since you insist…

Karenay, the demon of Zerinus, recently appeared to the Shipwrecked, a chaotic spirit of the seas and storms. As quick to laugh as to take offense, he seemed unable to remember much beyond the moment, seemingly forgetting conversation he had shared but moments before.

ARALIS
DEVOTEE of ZERINUS (CP: 5)
You gain the trait “Devotion”, and access to the following two spells:

• Drowning Spell (CP: 1,2,3,…): “Agony by Water”
• Chains of Ice (CP: 2,4,6,…): “Slow by Ice”
  PRIEST of ZERINUS (CP: 10) prequisite: Devotee of Zerinus
  You gain the trait “Priest”, and access to the following abilities:
• Conjure Demon of Zerinus (CP: 5,10,15,…): You can summon a demon of Zerinus under certain campaign-dependent circumstances. Higher levels of this skill allow you to summon more powerful demons. This skill may also be used to cast rituals of Zerinus.

No, no, don’t aim that firehose at me…

 

[Allweather]

On this I must agree, it has to make sense both ways, both spiritually and intellectually (in the heart and the mind). And I’m glad to hear about your fiance’s BITB, I’ll bet she’s a good person. And I also bet we’d both appreciate it if you could be a bit kinder to Mormons, at least verbally. Some of that was harsh.

I’ll admit that I tend to be harsh in my criticisms. I don’t mean to offend, but I often do. That is my style. It doesn’t diminish the truth of what I say, but it does make me harder to bear. I thank you, rmcmullen, for your very even-tempered behavior here, and I’m truly sorry if I hurt your feelings in any way.

But, let me add THIS: I’ve known my fiance for a little over 5 years. I’ve gotten to know most of her family. And, through them, I’ve gotten to know a little about Mormonism. Without going into a lot of boring specifics, all but two of them, a daughter who married a TBM, and my fiance’s oldest son, who recently returned from a mission in Mexico, have dropped out of the LDS via non-attendance and just not paying attention to it anymore. Personally, I blame Mormonism for this apostasy. They could have remained good Catholics, and been with God’s Church still. Rather, they were led into a strange religion by a father who never really learned his childhood faith well enough that he could’ve known what a major mistake he was making. I realize that LDS would like nothing better than to have all these people be faithful Mormons, but LDS didn’t offer them the true sacraments that they needed to live the faith life. Instead, it filled them with odd notions about becoming gods on other planets, and made them believe through fictionalized accounts in the holiness of a prophet who, if he were alive today, would be on the FBI’s most-wanted list. In short, LDS led them all AWAY from Jesus. And now they are apostate in the worst way. Apostate from their true faith, Catholicism, and apostate from their adopted false faith, Mormonism. This makes me angry. I get angry when I hear Mormons say that I am apostate, and that all the martyrs and other great men and women of faith across the centuries were apostates. Etc. I could go on for quite awhile, but I don’t want to make this any longer than it needs to be. Suffice to say that I am angry at Mormonism, and that it is a righteous anger born of personal “witness” of the disaster wrought in real peoples’ lives by Mormonism, people whom I love and respect. So, if I am a little testy, and unkind, and “harsh,” it is because Mormonism isn’t just a theoretical something I chit-chat about on the internet. It is a real, live, THING that is eating out the spiritual lives of many people I know and love. Given enough time and prayer and patience, not to mention a lovingkindness which doesn’t come naturally to me, LOL, I will help lead at least a few more of these nice people Home. I won’t expect you to wish me well in this endeavor, but I do know from the witness of the Holy Spirit in my innermost being, and from the witness of history and scripture, that it is the correct thing to be done.

 

[zerinus]

I don’t know what a Mormon means when he says “that the Book of Mormon is true.” What does a Mormon mean when he uses the word “true” with respect to the BoM?

I will be glad to tell you. We mean that it is true in every sense of the term. It is true historically. The events described in it actually happened, and the people mentioned in it actually lived. It is true doctrinally and theologically. It is a book of scripture, a revelation from God, on a par with the Bible, and contains the “fullness of the gospel of Jesus Christ”. It is true in the manner in which it is said to have come forth: it was translated by an uneducated young American boy from an ancient and unknown tongue into English by the “gift and power of God”. And finally, it is true as Joseph Smith described it: “the most correct of any book on earth, and the keystone of our religion, and a man would get nearer to God by abiding by its precepts, than by any other book”.

My testimony of the Holy Ghost is at odds with yours.

No surprise.

Naturally, I believe mine, and think that yours is either a fabrication, or is coming from a demon, rather than the Holy Ghost.

Or, it could be the other way round.

I don’t believe for a moment that the Holy Ghost gives different answers to different people on this important question. Either you are wrong, or I am.

Agreed.

In order to know which of us is wrong, we would have to look at other evidences besides our warm fuzzy feelings.

Wrong! The testimony of the Holy Ghost is the ultimate test. It is the test that proves or disproves all other tests. It is the final arbiter. There is no test that is higher than a revelation from God.

First evidence would surely be the person of the so-called prophet, Joseph Smith.

The person of Joseph Smith I of impeccable integrity and honesty.

Leaving aside, for now, allegations of fornication and deceit, . . .

Yes, wicked men have always attempted to malign the character of the prophets and servants of God. They even called Jesus Beelzebub. But they have an unenviable end to look forward to. What Jesus told them is equally applicable to you:

Matthew 12:

31 Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.

32 And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.

. . . how do we assess the various “prophecies” that Joseph Smith gave that failed to come true in the fullness of time? I’ve asked this of you before, and you evaded the question.

I don’t know of any prophecies that Joseph Smith made that failed to come true.

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

I don’t know of any prophecies that Joseph Smith made that failed to come true.

zerinus

I’ve got a list here I’d be happy to give you. It is lengthy. It comes from the Abanes book, One Nation Under Gods. I can’t vouch for the scholarship of it, but I assume that you can refute each and every claim made by Mr. Abanes for failed Joseph Smith prophecies…

 

[wahlcroft]

My question for you isn’t specifically about apologetics. As a protestant I was schooled by Walter Martin & The Godmakers. As a Catholic, I know the difference between the truth and the warm fuzzies (not that I don’t like warm fuzzies, I do, but I know that those are fleeting consolations, not the foundation for faith) and I’m not adverse to inviting missionaries into my home to discuss doctrine. Anyway, what I was wondering is how did you come into the Catholic Church? Were there Catholics who did/said anything in particular that helped bring you here? My daughter (and her two children) are being wooed by her boyfriend’s mother & all the fun family stuff going on at the Mormon church during the holidays. Not only do I want to protect “my own”, but I’d love to be an effective witness to the truth with this woman (who I’m sure would like to do the same to this wine-drinking, Mass going Catholic) and her son. Thanks for your help.

 

[rmcmullan]

Given enough time and prayer and patience, not to mention a lovingkindness which doesn’t come naturally to me, LOL, I will help lead at least a few more of these nice people Home. I won’t expect you to wish me well in this endeavor, but I do know from the witness of the Holy Spirit in my innermost being, and from the witness of history and scripture, that it is the correct thing to be done.

Whew, sorry to stir all that up, I guess I had no idea. Well at least I understand now, thanks.

I will wish you good luck with your marriage. I think Mormon girls are great!

 

[Allweather]

The person of Joseph Smith I of impeccable integrity and honesty.
zerinus

The Holy Ghost is witnessing to me otherwise. Are you saying that JS was not an adulterer? That he didn’t have upwards of 40-some “wives?” That he didn’t practice plural marriage in secret for several years before finally revealing it to the world? That he didn’t lie repeatedly about practicing plural marriage when questioned about it? Adultery, fornication, lying: these are not the hallmarks of “impeccable integrity and honesty.” However, you must know more about this than I do. Help me to refute what I’ve been told by others.

 

[wahlcroft]

I’m a former mormon. I am now attending RCIA and will probably be converting to catholicism this spring. The thing that started my interest in the catholic church was a debate I came across on the internet between Patrick Madrid and James White regarding sola scriptura. I was very impressed with pat’s argument. My advice to you if you want to get anywhere with mormons is to keep the wine put away if you are with them. It’s very offensive to Mormons and they won’t listen to anything you have to say if you’re drinking around them.

 

[zerinus]

You’re right. It still sounds good, tho. The Romans win.

Actually, the one I googled with the correct spelling was funnier, although a bit more insulting. And I like you too much for that.

But, since you insist…

No, no, don’t aim that firehose at me…

This is still guesswork though. They haven’t figured out the real incantation I use to win my debates. That is secret!

Okay, since you have been so diligent in researching my username, I will tell you the real story. When I was looking for a username to adopt for these boards, at first I decided on the word “Zerin” (the name of a mountain mentioned in the Book of Mormon), because it is short and memorable, and easy to say and remember, so it fit the bill. But when I tried to create a Hotmail account for that name, to use in conjunction with the boards, I found that it was taken, so I tried to invent something close to it. After a few failed attempts, I finally tried zerinus, which worked. So I created a hotmail account for zerinus, and decided to use that as the username as well. That is how Zman came to be! Does that satisfy your curiosity? :bounce:

zerinus

 

[Allweather]

I will wish you good luck with your marriage. I think Mormon girls are great!

Thanks! I won’t crack a joke about your use of the plural “girls.” LOL.

 

[zerinus]

I’ll admit that I tend to be harsh in my criticisms. I don’t mean to offend, but I often do. That is my style. It doesn’t diminish the truth of what I say, but it does make me harder to bear. I thank you, rmcmullen, for your very even-tempered behavior here, and I’m truly sorry if I hurt your feelings in any way.

But, let me add THIS: I’ve known my fiance for a little over 5 years. I’ve gotten to know most of her family. And, through them, I’ve gotten to know a little about Mormonism. Without going into a lot of boring specifics, all but two of them, a daughter who married a TBM, and my fiance’s oldest son, who recently returned from a mission in Mexico, have dropped out of the LDS via non-attendance and just not paying attention to it anymore. Personally, I blame Mormonism for this apostasy. They could have remained good Catholics, and been with God’s Church still. Rather, they were led into a strange religion by a father who never really learned his childhood faith well enough that he could’ve known what a major mistake he was making. I realize that LDS would like nothing better than to have all these people be faithful Mormons, but LDS didn’t offer them the true sacraments that they needed to live the faith life. Instead, it filled them with odd notions about becoming gods on other planets, and made them believe through fictionalized accounts in the holiness of a prophet who, if he were alive today, would be on the FBI’s most-wanted list. In short, LDS led them all AWAY from Jesus. And now they are apostate in the worst way. Apostate from their true faith, Catholicism, and apostate from their adopted false faith, Mormonism. This makes me angry. I get angry when I hear Mormons say that I am apostate, and that all the martyrs and other great men and women of faith across the centuries were apostates. Etc. I could go on for quite awhile, but I don’t want to make this any longer than it needs to be. Suffice to say that I am angry at Mormonism, and that it is a righteous anger born of personal “witness” of the disaster wrought in real peoples’ lives by Mormonism, people whom I love and respect. So, if I am a little testy, and unkind, and “harsh,” it is because Mormonism isn’t just a theoretical something I chit-chat about on the internet. It is a real, live, THING that is eating out the spiritual lives of many people I know and love. Given enough time and prayer and patience, not to mention a lovingkindness which doesn’t come naturally to me, LOL, I will help lead at least a few more of these nice people Home. I won’t expect you to wish me well in this endeavor, but I do know from the witness of the Holy Spirit in my innermost being, and from the witness of history and scripture, that it is the correct thing to be done.

Mormonism is true. I have no doubts in my mind that that is the case.

zerinus

 

[zerinus]

The Holy Ghost is witnessing to me otherwise. Are you saying that JS was not an adulterer? That he didn’t have upwards of 40-some “wives?” That he didn’t practice plural marriage in secret for several years before finally revealing it to the world? That he didn’t lie repeatedly about practicing plural marriage when questioned about it? Adultery, fornication, lying: these are not the hallmarks of “impeccable integrity and honesty.” However, you must know more about this than I do. Help me to refute what I’ve been told by others.

Yes, I know that he was a true prophet, and a man of impecable integrity and honesty before God.

zerinus

 

[Nan_S]

Okay, since you have been so diligent in researching my username, I will tell you the real story. When I was looking for a username to adopt for these boards, at first I decided on the word “Zerin” (the name of a mountain mentioned in the Book of Mormon), because it is short and memorable, and easy to say and remember, so it fit the bill.

That is how Zman came to be! Does that satisfy your curiosity? :bounce:

zerinus

I like it!

(Mount Zerin. Now I have something else to look up. Can you give me chapter and verse?)

A question for you, that occurred to me while reading your other posts: How much do you know about Arianism, particularly related to its core beliefs about Jesus Christ and their similarity to Mormonism?

Nan

 

[zerinus]

I’ve got a list here I’d be happy to give you. It is lengthy. It comes from the Abanes book, One Nation Under Gods. I can’t vouch for the scholarship of it, but I assume that you can refute each and every claim made by Mr. Abanes for failed Joseph Smith prophecies…

I am debating with you at the moment, not with Mr Abanes and his worthless book. If you have truly studied original LDS literature, and have criticisms to make or questions to ask about it, bring it here and we will discuss them; but I am not in the business of trying to refute every anti-Mormon literature published by a bunch of evil and corrupt men on the Internet and in bookstores. That runs into millions of pages; and I am not interested in them.

zerinus

 

[Ceil-1]

I had a similar experience with Zerinus when I questioned one of those “Holy Spirit” espisodes at a stake. He insulted me, accused me of being insane or on drugs, and offered no explanation for my experience. I suppose if I had said that I thought it was proof of the truth of Mormonism, he would have encouraged me.

This “feeling” has to be backed by reason, which includes at least some historical facts to its claims. I truly believe it is some hypnotic “trick” by, perhaps, some ritual or rite that is too subtle to notice.

I get the same feeling when I talk with JW’s. I begin to want to believe them, and doubt without meaning to. The longer I am in their presence, the more I feel that way. This has got to be preternatural in origin. I have been told not to let these cults take you to their worship centers. I took a seminar on how cults such as Scientology and such suck people in. These people’s tactics are very similar to that. That is why they are always chomping at the bit to get you to go with them to their turf. Just like we protect ourselves with holy water, medals and incense and such, they must do some sort of ritual that they think is holy and good, but is some sort of mesmerizing tactic. I believe this with my whole heart.

I don’t believe the rank-and-file members realize all this and wish harm on their evangelizees, but, I just know there is something more than persuasive argument involved in there somewhere.

 

[zerinus]

I like it!

(Mount Zerin. Now I have something else to look up. Can you give me chapter and verse?)

Yes, here is the context:

Ether 12:

28 Behold, I will show unto the Gentiles their weakness, and I will show unto them that faith, hope and charity bringeth unto me—the fountain of all righteousness.

29 And I, Moroni, having heard these words, was comforted, and said: O Lord, thy righteous will be done, for I know that thou workest unto the children of men according to their faith;

30 For the brother of Jared said unto the mountain Zerin, Remove—and it was removed. And if he had not had faith it would not have moved; wherefore thou workest after men have faith.

31 For thus didst thou manifest thyself unto thy disciples; for after they had faith, and did speak in thy name, thou didst show thyself unto them in great power.

It appears that you have not yet read the Book of Mormon. Well, if you want to debate with Mormons, you can’t get very far without that. That is the first stop for anyone interested in Mormon issues.

A question for you, that occurred to me while reading your other posts: How much do you know about Arianism, particularly related to its core beliefs about Jesus Christ and their similarity to Mormonism?

I am sure I am not as knowledgeable about it as you are; but I am not completely ignorant either. I don’t see any similarity between Mormonism and Arianism. Any similarities between them are more superficial than fundamental. What did you have in mind?

zerinus

 

[decn2b]

Lots of Ex Mormons around here.Anywho MOst and I mean like dozens are now evangelicals and several are Catholics who came through evangelicalism and that trickle continues. From what I know about Mormonism comes from the Former Mormons from around here. I am quite simply amazed at the outlandishness of some of their stories. One of the goofiest stories was about gods wife in heaven who was actually a Woman who gives birth to souls. The first time I heard this I was convinced that the person telling me this was joking around. But then I did a little reading and found out they really BELIEVE THAT??? I am convinced that Joseph Smith was slipped some pyote or “strong Weed” when all of this sillyness supposedly happened and the copper plates etc. etc… The guy had to be smoking somthing to make up those endles fantasies. The dark skinned people thing. It is goes on and on its quite amazing. I am jsut glad that JS didn’t see a giacantic pink chicken floating in the sky or somthing. the Holy Hen? I am not trying to sound indignant towards Mormons but believing is such a sillyness would be extremely funny but only if they were just joking about all of it. Its sad and lots of souls need some serious prayers.

 

[Nan_S]

It appears that you have not yet read the Book of Mormon. Well, if you want to debate with Mormons, you can’t get very far without that. That is the first stop for anyone interested in Mormon issues.

Thank you for the cite. I did read the BoM, but it was while I was in college, 30 years ago. I still have that copy. I’m just not nearly as familiar with it as you.

I am sure I am not as knowledgeable about it as you are; but I am not completely ignorant either. I don’t see any similarity between Mormonism and Arianism. Any similarities between them are more superficial than fundamental. What did you have in mind?

zerinus
Regarding Arianism, the commonality I see with Mormonism is that Mormonism rejects the Holy Trinity. Mormons hold that Jesus Christ was a created being, the first-born of God, and the source of all other creation after Him, but that there was a time (however brief) when Elohim existed but Jesus did not.

It’s not quite the same as Arianism, since you also maintain that Jesus rather quickly achieved God-head, and the Arians did not go that far. But the rest is almost spookily similar.

This is from the Catholic Answers website:

Ancient Heresies in Post-Modern Dress

Today’s Arians, though, do not call themselves Arians; for the most part they are not aware that they *are *Arians. Yet a religion such as Unitarianism is nothing else but Arian in its denial of the divinity of Christ and of the Trinity. Similarly, a modern American religion such as Mormonism is wholly Arian in its account of a divine being, even if it is ignorant of Arianism historically.

Arianism was perhaps the most typical and persistent of the ancient heresies. Basically it involved a denial of the divinity of Jesus Christ. It was first effectively advanced by Arius (256–336), a priest of Alexandria in Egypt, who denied that there were three distinct divine Persons in the Holy Trinity. For Arius, there was only one Person in the Godhead, the Father. According to Arian theory, the Son was a created being. The Arians liked to say that “there was a time when he was not.” For them, Christ was “the Son of God” only in a figurative sense, or by “adoption” (just as we are children of God by adoption), not in his essential being or nature.

Arianism was formally condemned by the First Council of Nicaea in 325. Indeed, it was the spread of Arianism and Arian ideas among the faithful, and the disputes and disorders that resulted, that prompted Emperor Constantine to call the Council of Nicaea in the first place. What the Council decided—against Arius and his adherents—was that the Son was homo-ousios (“one in being” or “consubstantial”) with the Father. In other words, that the Son of God was himself God, was therefore eternal, and hence that there never was a time when he was not.

The fathers of Nicaea issued their Creed precisely to insist on the three Persons in one substance in the Trinity and on the divinity of Christ. If Christ was not divine, then the world was not redeemed by his sacrifice on the cross. Eventually the faith itself dissolves if Christ is not understood to be divine; after all, he very plainly insisted in the Gospels that he was (cf. John 10:30, 38; 14:10, 11).